Personally, I have even had a hard time praying for salvation for the OW. I have prayed for her children's salavation.

I made the conscious choice to forgive WH. It was not easy. He is continuing on his path. But I did forgive him. He has not owned up to his sin, although has written lots of stuff that said he has.

Basically, I fogave him for my own benefit.

I agree with that Believer.

I am saying that the POINT of forgiveness *is* reconcilation. That is WHY God forgives us and that is why we forgive others. Otherwise it is just an empty feel good measure that achieves nothing. He doesn't pass out unwanted forgiveness to the unrepentant. God does not forgive us inabsentia, and we are not called to do so either. It may make us feel good and lordly to hand out unwarranted, unwanted forgiveness, but it achieves no other purpose.

B,

Is that the version of forgiveness targeting his Fog?? LOL

Sorry, could not resist. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Hmmmm....... What is the point? Maybe to just remove that emotion of anger toward the OP from you.

And I totally disagree with this obviously. Jesus FINISHED his work on the cross. He offers forgiveness to everyone who will accept it as we should. Clearly that forgiveness is not accepted by many/most people sadly, but it is still available.

Unforgiveness is like resentment - it's like taking poison yourself and waiting for the other person to die.

You may well feel like offering forgiveness to the unrepentant is an empty feel good gesture but I strongly disagree. Unforgiveness is like a cancer inside you. I choose to be free from the power of unforgiveness. I forgive for me. I forgive because in the Lords Prayer I pray that God forgive me even as I forgive those who sin against me. If you want to retain unforgiveness that is your choice but I don't believe it is biblical.

Hmmm, now I'm thinking.

Maybe I should send a reminder notice to OW and my ex-H.

[color:"blue"]Reminder Notice:

You are severly past due on your "Request for Forgiveness" to Resilient. Your delinquency will go on your credit report history with the BIG Guy and likely cause you to burn to a crisp upon the day of rekoning. Please remit ASAP to avoid further inflamatory action.

Please disregard this notice if repentence has been made. [/color]
____________________________________________

Folks,
This is a joke above. I mean no disrespect to anyone's beliefs and hope I haven't offended anyone.

Love,
Jo

funny Jo

And I think passing out forgiveness in a manner that is NOT biblical cheapens the beautiful gift of forgiveness and actually prevents reconciliation. Unless one repents, there is nothing TO forgive. God's standard IS repentance and I don't think our standard should be different. I think the author of the book that Mimi posted about is exactly right when he says:

Biblical forgiveness is never unconditional and one-sided. It is not letting others go off scot-free, "forgiven", and enabled to do harm again without any consequence. Instead, forgiveness is an invitation to reconciliation, not the blind, cheap granting of it.

Jesus says, "...If your brother sins, rebuke him, and IF HE REPENTS, forgive him (Luke 16:3-4). Jesus makes it clear that forgiveness is conditional. We are not to rebuke unless a sin has been committed, nor are we to forgive unless true repentance has occurred.

**snort** <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I see FORGIVENESS as a hand reaching out to someone who has wronged you. RECONCILIATION is that person taking your hand.

God will forgive us our sins...He sent his only son...his perfect son...to die so that our sins would be forgiven. It is a priceless gift given freely. Whether we take God's hand through repentance and reconciliation...that's up to us. We need to ACCEPT His forgiveness for it to be reconciled with God.

I guess in my limited theological view, that's the model He'd want us to follow...give the gift of forgiveness freely. That is all WE can do. NOT to imply that the gift isn't priceless, that it's easily acquired, or should be handed out arbitrarily....not at all. Forgiveness is serious and should be carefully considered. We CHOOSE to offer the gift of forgiveness and hold out our hand. If the wrong-doer doesn't ACCEPT the gift, slaps our hand away, or doesn't recognize the gift they are given...well...that's on them. We won't be reconciled.

So true forgiveness, to me, is a powerful gift of love in which the person who was wronged can hold out that hand...with full knowledge that it might be slapped away. I don't think that's empty or feel-good. I think it's generous and compassionate, and I think that's how God would want us to be.

Keep in mind, I was raised Catholic...maybe some of that influences my view. I'm no expert; this is all seat-of-my-pants...I just started reading the Bible for goodness sake...but the way I interpret scripture is of course filtered through my world view, etc...

The twists and turns this thread takes...

LS

Lilsis, I think you are exactly right, I would only add that in order for forgiveness to be complete, it must be accepted. One must be WILLING to forgive and the forgivee must be willing to be forgiven in order to culminate forgiveness. Forgiveness is an act of LOVE that is a beautiful, meaningful act, but it takes TWO to be forgiven, a forgiver and a forgivee for the act to be complete. I think the best example of this is God's own standard.

Wow, LilSis and Mel, I have to say that is a very good example of what forgiveness and reconciliation is and is exactly what God did for us and would have us follow.

Wrong Mel, sheesh, must be my Catholic upbringing. But forgiveness doesn't have to be accepted. I don't think it takes two.

Forgiveness: The Sane thing to Do
By Corrie ten Boom

In London, I was asked to call on a woman in a mental institution . . . She had always lived in Palestine. Her husband had been kind to the Jews, and then it was the Jews who had dropped a bomb on their home. . .

“I know exactly what you are going to tell me. I must pray,” she began the conversation in a defiant manner, “But I can not pray.”

I made no reply, and she continued, “I know exactly what you are going to say next: I must banish the hatred from my heart, because only then can I pray again.”

“Who has told you that?”

“The chaplain.”

“No doubt the chaplain is still a very young man, and he does not yet know how powerful the devil of hatred is. You and I know. Once I was with my sister in a concentration camp. When they treated me cruelly I could stand it, but when I saw they intended to beat my sister, because she was too weak to shovel sand, then hatred tried to enter my heart. And then I experienced a miracle. Jesus had planted His love in my heart, and there was no room left for hatred. The only think you can do is to open your heat to that love. That love is a reality, If it is dark in a room, while the sun is shining outside, do I have to sweep the darkness out? Of course not. I merely have to draw the curtains aside, and as soon as the sunlight floods the room the darkness vanishes.”

We both knelt down, and I prayed, “Lord, here we are, weak, much weaker than the devil of hatred. But thou art stronger than the devil of hatred, and now we open our hearts to Thee, and we give thanks to Thee that Thou art willing to enter into our hearts, as the sun is willing to flood a room that is opened to its brightness.”

A week later the woman was discharged from the mental institution. Her heart was full of the love of God.



I think this is what most of us are saying. We can not continue to harbor ill will or grudges - it has to be replaced with something else. Some of us see that as offering forgiveness. Thankfully for Corrie ten Boom that forgiveness did not have to be accepted as the Nozi's really never repented.

sorry, but that is wrong, believer. That is not God's standard and we can't imagine that we have a higher standard than God. God does not force his "forgiveness" on others and neither should we. If everyone is forgiven whether they accept it or not, then no one goes to he11 and forgiveness is meaningless. And we know that is not true.

Did you see MF's post?

I like this thread. Who would ever believe all of the spiritual awakenings?

So, LilSis,
have you thought anymore about what you plan to do for New Year's Eve concerning the boys and WH?

And why is this? You didn't have visions of jumping him on the twin bed????? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> HINT! HINT! Please get out of the PARENTING FOCUS!! The man wants ROMANCE. He is out of the PARENTING MODE. He is trying to compartmentalize you in the PARENTING ROLE and your job is to step out of it. His thinking: Sis is (just) THE MOTHER OF MY CHILDREN..not the LOVE OF MY LIFE.


ANY CHANCE YOU GET...MAKE IT ABOUT YOU AND HIM...

ALWAYS BE PREPARED TO SEE HIM..YOU NEVER KNOW WHEN YOU WILL GET ThAT CHANCE....



OK. GOOD MOVE.



Well, NO..but he didn't give you the nightie back...or express disgruntlement over it....



He most certainly does DRIVEBYS and you caught him...I learned that my H did..of course, he misses his home and family...take this as a DEFINITE SIGN OF THAT..a MEMORY FOR YOU TO TREASURE DURING ANY DARK TIMES TO COME...this was a gift for you as evidence that he is still there inside somewhere...