LS:

He may have done this:



During the A. And even now.

I was referring to RT's house.

But he needs to see, feel, hear, etc., the alternative.

LG

184 and 6'3"

EEEK!

192 at 5'10"

Just had a thought in the midst of my horrible hobby duties out on frozen tundra! (I am cold. I am frozen. I am miserable)

It's about that bone of contention, the check. Since it really might be that his discomfort with the whole thing does indeed have to do with the fact he's a cop, and he doesn't want the judge (who knows him by name) or anyone else to think he's a deadbeat who willfully ignores court orders, maybe you should have a backup plan about it. ???

If it starts becoming a LB, maybe you could turn it into a Plan A attack by <something like> :

LS: I've been thinking about what you said about my tires. Do they really need to be replaced?

WH: Yes, I think they do. The tread is wearing out on the left rear. (or whatever tires do when they need to be replaced...not RS's strong point!)

LS: Okay. Then because you are probably concerned about the safety of the boys and me, I'll use that check to buy tires on one condition.

WH: What?

LH: Well, this is one of those areas in which I'm totally clueless. I don't know how to get tires, and I don't trust those tire store guys to not rip me off or something, soooooooooooooo, I will use that check for the tires if you'll help me with the purchase and make sure they're on right etc. (okay, obviously this won't work if you're a closet mechanic)

WH: I guess I could do that. When?

.........and then you Plan A your butt off and make sure that this turns into a positive (and hopefully lengthy...just to annoy MissyDummyDog) family experience.

Is this a good idea? Anyone? Just in case the check becomes a bigger issue?

-------->>>>>> Back to the tundra for me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

RS...it's moot now. The check was for the difference between what he FIGURED he owed and what the actual support amount is. Well...apparently FOC is taking care of all of that now...and it calls the difference between what he owes and what he paid "arrearages."

Nope, he doesn't like it ONE bit. I can see why. But there is one easy way to put a stop to the whole FOC mess (quite possibly the ONLY way to put a stop to it): STOP THE D PROCEEDINGS.

The latest:

The boys and I went to the Outback for a late lunch/early dinner, followed by new jeans for DS11 and new shoes for DS8 and groceries for me (how'd I get so lucky?).

Sitting there in the Outback, I checked my cell and I had missed a call from WH. So I call back, all perky and happy.
LS: Hi! Did you call me earlier?
WH: Yeah, I had told you that I would call to talk to the boys...so I'm calling. (sounds in a remarkably good mood)
LS: Oh listen...can you hear the song that's playing? (it was one that DS11 used to sing along to when he was 2)
WH: No...where are you?
LS: We're at the Outback.
WH: Who'd you meet there?
LS: No one. I just had a gift card.
WH: Oh. Well, I hope you have fun.
LS: Yeah, the boys are playing tic-tac-toe. Can you hear them? (this is probably the first time in three years I've been to a restaurant with the boys and they are NOT arguing over the crayons or whatEVER...they are actually laughing and playing nicely)
WH: Yeah, I hear them.
LS: So, where are you? at the park?
WH: No (somewhere, couldn't hear), just writing a report.
LS: Did you want to talk to the boys?
WH: Sure...go ahead.
LS: Boys, you want to talk to dad?
DS11: Nah. We're playing.
LS: (to WH) Did you hear that?
WH: Yeah...just let them play.
LS: Okay, well, I'll have them call you later, after you get out of work.
WH: Okay, talk to you later. Hope you have fun.
LS: Thanks! C-ly-b
WH: bye.

LS -

Lurker who's posted once to you, but cheering you on...

After the last few conversations that were heavy on "relationship" talk, I think this one was perfect. Dr. Harley advised me to only do relationship talks in small doses. He said that it was important to show that we could have normal friendly, not-heavy discussions -- and this sounds like your call was just right. He said men, well -- mine anyway -- don't want to feel like they are going to be pounced on too much. Wish I was I eating at Outback!
Shellybird

Thanks, shelly!
Actually...it felt good to me, too. I hesitate to say it was "normal," because nothing could be less normal, but at least it wasn't DRAMA. Had enough of that.

Getting everything off my chest this morning...after such an intense and unexpected go-round yesterday...it's what I needed. So now I can go back to business as usual, and just hope that MAYBE SOMETHING of what I said seeped through the fog.

We had another chat tonight...I called to give him a chance to talk to the boys...got VM, and he called back a short while later. We chatted for a few minutes after he was done talking to the boys...just mundane stuff like the schedule for this week, and he asked if I would talk to SIL/BIL about St. Paddy's day weekend. (I will see them at church tomorrow). Little chat about the baby rats, got ILs address in Phoenix for his mom's b-day card. Very low key, friendly and conversational.

I am making some granola with a recipe from Cooking Light...it has pistachios and dried blueberries...hopefully it will be yummy because the plan is to give some to WH. The only thing NOT healthy in this granola is the brown sugar.

I will call WH in the morning and invite him over for some homemade granola and a cup of coffee. After church, the boys and I are heading to my mom's (an hour away) for dinner and a visit.

Trust your gut, Sis..but I don't think I'd invite him over in the morning...

Let him continue to TAKE THE LEAD NOW..to do the pursuing...

I predict that the phone calls will become a REGULAR OCCURRENCE..

He's not really calling to talk to THE BOYS...

As Shelly says, keep it LIGHT with no R talk...

FILL THAT CONVERSATION NEED!!!

Ask him about his day..what's going on at work...

But mostly...LISTEN....LET HIM TALK..as LG says..

Hi, i have read pretty much ur whole story, it gives me so much hope cause of the things you have said and are doing to try to make it all work!

just wanted to show some support!

Hope you check your thread early, I totally agree with Mimi send the AWESOME granola next time he takes the boys.

I'd love the granola recipe, bodybuilders do use sugar sometimes and brown is better than white! by the way, I've changed my name. I put my swords away.

Sent him a TM: "Made some yummy, very healthy granola if you are hungry"

On Sundays he has far fewer places to go for breakfast while he's working....I think exactly none. TMs are so much less threatening, and mine was a statement, not a direct invite.

I took it as an opportunity to NUDGE.

Glad you clarified about the name change...I looked and thought...doesn't someone else have that exact same sig line? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

The granola was really, really good, M4L. It was from Cooking Light but I modified it...adding walnuts, switching from dried cherries to dried blueberries, and toasting it in the oven.

2/3 c. brown sugar
1/4 c. apple cider
1/2 t. cinnamon
1/4 t. salt
2 c. regular oats
2/3 c. coarsely chopped pistachios
2/3 c. coarsely chopped walnuts
2/3 c. Grape Nuts
1/2 c. unsalted sunflower seeds
2/3 c. dried blueberries

Heat oven to 325.

Combine sugar and cider in a saucepan, heat and stir until sugar is dissolved (about 3 minutes). Remove from heat. Wisk in the cinamon and salt.

Toss all the remaining dry ingredients EXCEPT the blueberries in a large bowl. Pour the sugar/cider mixture in and toss until everything is coated. Dump it all out on to a cookie sheet and stick it in the oven for 15 minutes....stirring it around every 5 minutes.

Take it out, stir in the blueberries, and let it cool. Store in an airtight container for up to a week.

Very good...not too sweet or gooey like some granola...it's actually kind of sweet/salty with the pisatchios. I got all the stuff to make Marsh's minestrone this week...kept forgetting to get zuchinni!

sounds yummy.
i just love Cooking Light....got my H a subscription for Christmas. he's a much better cook than I.
sounds like things are going well LS. Have a nice Sunday.

Maybe it was reading the Sunday paper with all the Valentine's Day ads...my TAKER just needs to vent a little, 'kay?

Thinking back to the conversation the other day with WH...where he accused me of "not living up to my vows" by (I'm sort of guessing/interpreting here) not being vulnerable, projecting myself as so capable, on top of it, Superwoman, when in fact I was insecure and anxious deep down. So I'm a bit confused, wondering what he really did want?

Did he WANT me to be Superwoman? Is that what he LIKED about me? Is that what drew him to me?
or....
Did he want me to be vulnerable, to show my insecurities, to share those with him?

Because the second one is the real me...and if he expects the first one, he's never going to find that with me....not really...not if our relationshiip were to have any depth.

And considering that led me to grapple with this:
On the one hand...the A wasn't my fault! No one made him take his pants off!
On the other hand...I wasn't meeting his needs. What should I expect to happen to my marriage when I wasn't putting any energy into my H? I FAILED him.

So which is it, guys? (I'm not being hostile here...just raising that issue...)

And here's where my TAKER needs to unload a bit...looking at all the Valentine's stuff in the paper...especially because my b-day is the day after...I'm wondering what HE did to make ME feel loved? To hear him talk now, you'd think he was the perfect husband, that I was the total failure. In reality, he wasn't meeting my needs either. He has NEVER admitted to failings in our marriage...no matter how many times I say "I take responsibility for problems we had..." He never responds in kind.

You know I said before how WH was never a gift-giver, and that I was okay with it. Know what? I'm NOT okay with it. I would have like a present now and then. I would have liked a warm hug. I would have liked a kiss first thing in the morning. I would have liked him to make the coffee and bring ME a cup once in a while. I would have liked for him to tone back the sarcasm once in a while when I DID reveal an insecurity.

I guess one question I have is...when the fog clears...when recovery is well along...does the FWH ever realize that he wasn't perfect either? Does he read HNHN and "get it?"

Thanks for letting me vent. And say good-bye to my Taker...now that she's gotten a little exercise she can go back in her cage.

OK

being honest here
what you are "hearing" come through WH's vocal cords is TURD'S mantra

don't give yourself a headache trying too hard to make sense of this

it is crap

LilSis's breaking of her "vows" has been suggested by TURD herself
either directly or with some subtly

which is part of the reason WH was aghast that your called (rightfully) THEIR relationship [color:"red"] adultery [/color]

Sis ... this is fog-speak

if it ever comes up again ... do NOT argue ... but ASK
[color:"blue"] "Exactly which marriage vows did I break? I'd like to know." [/color]

My point is ... some of the foul stench he burps is from her ... directly ... and this is one of those things.

this is regurgitated [color:"brown"]TURD-PROPAGANDA [/color]

Sis ~ reading Chapman's "Five Love Languages" helped me tremendously in understanding emotional needs.

Sis, think back to your dating life before marriage.

He clearly met your needs at some point or you would not have married him. Same goes for you.

You met his needs - and after you got married you stopped, or at least did less of what you did before.

Same goes for him.

And then your marriage started its downhill slide.

Alot of these questions you are asking will be dealt with once and IF you get to recovery. Your husband has the same obligation to meet your needs that you have to meet his. It will be genuine and sincere, it won't require you to be someone you are not.

I'm one of the lurkers on your thread, Lilsis, so I hope you don't mind me butting in.

When you recounted that 'you broke your vows' remark, I was pretty startled. I thought the logical flaw would ignite a lot of argument, but so far it hasn't!

What does he think he means?

What kind of marriage vows did you make, LS? Unless you drew up something wacky and alternative, I'm assuming you made the standard-issue 'in sickness and in health' type vows? Those vows promise loyalty and fidelity and possibly enough SF to produce children. Beyond that, everything else is 'sold as seen'. We don't promise much else at all.

So which 'vows' is he imagining you've broken?

It seems likely to me that he really means that you disappointed his expectations, or presented him with problems that he didn't have the skills to resolve. Those are problems he has to deal with, and he'll have to deal with them whether he's with you or RT or anyone else.

He's trying to find reasons to justify his breaking of his vows, and it shows that his 'wrongness' is really bothering him. I would ask him what he meant? Exactly which vow - real, concrete marital vow - did you break?

You'll get an angry, aggressive answer, but it will make him think.

TA

Agree that the vow remark is affair justification propaganda.

Let's not allow *disappointing* someone to be compared with *betraying* them.

Disappoint: to fail to fulfill the expectations or wishes of

Betray: to deliver or expose to an enemy by treachery or disloyalty

I disappoint my husband by buying the wrong size wrong color shirt

I betray him by buying OM a shirt instead of my husband

I disappointed you by not being on time, I betrayed you ny telling the thief where the spare key is kept.

Sis,

The "vow" comment likely refers to the "submitting" part - many people believe this reference to mean sexual submission on the part of the woman to the husband. Just a thought on my part, and I have heard people say it before. He probably picked this up from RT, or some ridiculous place somewhere along the way, as a "justification" for the A. Not a surprise, really - "Well, she broke the 'submission' part, right? So yours doesn't REAALLLY count....."

I have actually had one man quote Timothy, chapter and verse, to me once about how I needed to do EXACTLY what my husband wanted me to do. On vacation, I had greatly injured my back and wanted to go home and rest; my husband wanted to go fishing another day longer before we went home. This man said that my husband wins automatically because of Timothy chapter whatever verse whatever!!!!!! I looked at the man and told him that the Bible also said, "There ain't gonna be no more fishing today!" - you had to piece it together from various places, but the words were in there somewhere.

WE WENT HOME.

I look back and laugh, because I have never before been able to talk my husband out of going fishing before!



Anyway, on topic now.

Someone posted regarding the idea that your WH may be having a crisis regarding his job and career issues. That same thought crossed my mind. This is another thing that really does separate women and men. WARNING - SPEAKING IN GENERALITIES AGAIN, AND NOT SO POLITICALLY CORRECT - BUT RESEARCH DOES SHOW THIS.... Women in general tend to perceive who they are based in a large part on their relationships with other people. Men, on the other hand, base much of their sense of self on what they DO, and a lesser amount on their personal relationships. There is just a different "mix" in the ingredients in the recipes here. So it wouldn't be unreasonable to guess that he might be feeling inferior to the brothers, or feeling a need for a career change at this point in his life. Especially given the information Sis has noted in previous posts. Despite how jobs "should be" for supporting families, men do view them as reflective of themselves as men to some degree and that the job itself reflects their success and accomplishments to other men. Not to mention sexual prowess....(consider your husband being a hairdresser or nail technician, and ask him about that for kicks and see what he says!).

I would throw out there that RT left an ATTORNEY to be with him......interesting in this context, I think, considering the brothers he is comparing himself with.


To answer your Taker's questions, YES, the WS does come back and GIVE to you. Ultimately, the WS does figure it out. They realize how ungrateful, unloving, and horrible they have been. They eat themselves up with remorse and guilt, and try almost too hard to make it up to you. Sometimes I am embarrassed because my FWH tries so hard, and I still hurt inside. I feel guilty because he is trying and I can't heal fast enough. He is over his crisis, and I am the one who is lost now. I feel bad about that, and he is working so hard to pick up the pieces.

I'm glad he is able to do it. And glad that the Giver returns - and that the answer to your question is that "yes", things can get fixed.

SB