I agree with Lexx, too..that Sis was triggered yesterday and felt BETRAYED and ABANDONED again by her WH..like a stab in the heart..and when that happens our AUTOMATICS kick in..the OLD PATTERNS..so there...



I'm no EXPERT..just an avid reader lately on the subject. The books WILD AT HEART and LOVE AND RESPECT have taught me A LOT about MANHOOD and my H agrees with these authors wholeheartedly sooo....

Men have a NEED for their WOMEN to ADMIRE them, BELIEVE in them, RESPECT their ability to PROVIDE and to TAKE CARE of their families. It's in a man's very nature..like in the CAVE MAN DAYS..the MAN would go off, to kill and bring back the food and the WOMAN would prepare it. It's hard to have such ADMIRATION for a WH but as a MAN, HUSBAND and FATHER Sis' H has been ADMIRABLE in the past and is ADMIRABLE now in his SERVICE to the COMMUNITY. He seems to be ACHING for her to APPRECIATE and RECOGNIZE his MANHOOD.... He wants her to view him as THE MAN OF THE HOUSE...the ONLY ONE WHO FUNCTIONS IN THAT ROLE. A man does need to be the HEAD OF THE HOUSEHOLD in my opinion and if a wife does not LIFT HER HUSBAND UP, in APPRECIATING HIS MANHOOD in the HOME he is EMASCULATED....

I think my H's STRONG BELIEF in this was a primary impetus for him coming home. He found that he could not BE THE MAN in the OW's HOUSEHOLD. Her daughter was not HIS DAUGHTER. He was not living in HIS HOME...it was HER HOUSE. All this runs sooo deep for MEN in ways that we as women can't understand..are not supposed to understand. Like others said here, my H came home the first two times because it was THE RIGHT THING TO DO..although he remain ADDICTED to the OTHER WOMAN...this is why her next move was to try to become pregnant because she knew this was so important to him..he wanted to FEEL LIKE HE WAS TAKING CARE OF HIS FAMILY... It's the TAKING CARE OF that makes them feel good.

I sooo got this since Recovery and it is NEW for ME. My H so LOVES TO TAKE CARE OF ME and I SOOOOO APPRECIATE it...I know. I know. This MAY come later for Sis..but I see her H wanting to do this for her and HE LOVES IT WHEN SHE ASKS. Haven't you noticed?

I have noticed that LS's WH wants and likes to be needed.
I just didn't think of the conversation about why he didn't leave the dog w/ her would be considered belittling or emasculating.....and i don't think LS saw it that way either.....that is why it is helpful for you to point these things out and explain how a man might view it.

Sis-
First post and I swore I'd never do this. Lurking here longer than most would want to know for reasons I will not get into.

But Sis, LG has some tremendous input that you need to really pay attention to. He knows what is rattling around in your WH's head. That is intel that you really need to pull from with great confidence.

We are all rooting for you, Sis. God bless and good luck. PLAN B IS GOING TO ROCK HIS WORLD.

Mimi:

I didn't pick up that LilSis had really LBing about the dog. But WH changed the subject quickly. And to something that he could be in control with.
So that was a good "get" by you.


And I agree with what happened to LilSis after that:

I agree with Lexx, too..that Sis was triggered yesterday and felt BETRAYED and ABANDONED again by her WH..like a stab in the heart..and when that happens our AUTOMATICS kick in..the OLD PATTERNS..so there...

But, LilSis: You are changing. You are getting SO MUCH better at this. Your triggers were pushed and you dropped into old patterns, but you didn't do so bad. It's a very fine line you are walking here. You try for more clearance on that line, and you are getting it.

Do not beat yourself up to bad.

Both interactions regarding the dog went bad. Go figure.

So, avoid that subject completely, if possible.

I get what you are saying…just to clarify, though…he was the one who stated that he wasn’t able to care for her on those days: “I don’t want to leave her alone when I’m at work, she needs to be with someone”. I may not have worded it exactly the way I stated, either…nonetheless the point would be the same! I actually thought of saying that (“I trust you to do what’s right”) when he first told me that the dog was at B’s…but I just couldn’t restrain myself. It felt a bit like a boundary issue, actually. I’ve asked to have the dog before, he needs someone to take care of the dog, the dog is/was as much mine as it is/was his…

Sort of like with the kids. If he needs someone to be with the kids, I would expect that I would be the first person he asks. (I realize it’s no where near the same thing, but trying to make my point) I’m sure you all understand the FEELING. From his point of view, the dog is no longer mine, though. When I left the dog at ILs, he took that as me relinquishing any right to her.

So…how SHOULD I have responded? Because it’s just a dog, do I just let it go; tell him I trust him, don’t call him on it? Honestly, that would seem insincere. ??? Please don’t jump on me for this…I’m trying to understand.


Second…I don’t think by the time the evening rolled around that the “trigger” of seeing RT in the morning was affecting me. The interaction over the stupid mud flap was more dominant at that point.

Another thing…if he’s so into being the man…why did he react so negatively to my request for help with the mud flap? Why get so angry? Why wouldn’t he just jump up and offer to fix it? (that’s part of what I was trying to do…give him that opportunity)

ETA: sorry...at work so I'm just blurting this out here.

Sis...

He views the dog as his responsibility, and he IS living up to that responsibility...He isn't neglecting the dog, he has a sitter-not the one that you would like, and I very much understand your reasons there, but nonetheless, the dog is being taken care of...

Remember, for those with a top EN of admiration criticisms like these are LBs...Your WH viewed this as a criticism of his abilities...It would be a bit like him telling you that you weren't able to live up to your responsiblity as a mom because you chose a capable babysitter that he didn't "like"-And I know that you would choose to leave your boys in the care of your H if there was a choice between him and a babysitter, but he is WH, so yanno...make sense?

I would opt to stay away from conversations regarding the dog...Don't sweat it, onward and upwards...

Mrs. W

I understand you being concerned about your dog, feeling that he was ABANDONING HIM.

What I was mainly making reference to was your not letting go in the phone call and what you said to him during the phone call.



And I understand this..BUT we're on the HOME STRETCH and I'm encouraging you to RESTRAIN YOURSELF for a bit. If you cannot, it's time for PLAN B. I agree with getting some direction on this from Steve if at all possible.



JUST DON'T SAY ANYTHING if you are on the verge of LBing...

Change the subject and talk about something LIGHT..the cost of tea in China...

My signal for when I'm being SELF-RIGHTEOUS is when I just HAVE TO MAKE MY POINT!! That's useless with your WH...only takes you off course from YOUR PLAN..liking talking to a BRICK WALL..he's not going to get it NOW...

RT is being her bestest self..that's what OW do..this is what you are FIGHTING against.

HE'S DEFINITELY INTO BEING THE MAN...THINK ABOUT IT...

Plus, remember he's CONFLICTED..One part of him would like to think YOU DON'T NEED HIM, SHOULDN'T NEED HIM, WANT TO DO EVERYTHING ON YOUR OWN>>>>>>That's the RT SIDE..

THE OTHER PART WANTS YOU TO NEED HIM...

I've never met a heterosexual man who wasn't "so into being a man", even the most Clark Kent-ish bookworm wants a woman to admire the Superman in him.

I have to wholeheartedly agree with Mimi. This is my story:

I'm a researcher and trivia afficionado, I have a hobby of building and repairing computers, I've always been the one to setup the VCR, Stereo equipment, Home Theater, Satellite service. (Time and technology march on), and I have a wide vocabulary..., after a while of always challenging my husband, and often being able to easily "prove my position" with references, my husband started to percieve himself as stupid. Nothing is further from the truth. But he's different than I am, more artistic and more gifted with his hands, he can build anything you dream up, he can draw up blueprints, his hobby is building and repairing motorcycles from the ground up. He's more easy-going, more likely to share a funny story, than a bit of technical information.

The other woman wasn't in competition with him. She knew she wasn't bright, she was wonderful at making him feel great and smart and like a man! I was failing him miserably there.

I made far too many decisions about what type of TV we would buy, even what navigational instruments we bought for our boat.

I have to hold back and give him information and let him make the final decision, or let him lead POJA.

Sometimes it's all in how you word something, "when you can't meet your responsibility" implies a disrespectful judgement. In his mind finding a dog-sitter was living up to his responsibility after all. His job is a valid reason for him to need a sitter, it's a stretch to call it in irresponsibility. YKWIM

All along I have understood exactly what Mimi means because it was the thing that made my husband feel most unloved, and unvalued in our marriage. I made him feel like I didn't need him, since I always "knew better". And I always argued the point, even when it really didn't matter! I wanted things to be right, not necessarily for me to be right. It was my way of being helpful, and perfect. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

The biggest change in me during Recovery has been learning to choose my battles, and letting go, not sweating the small stuff. And it's very freeing! And it makes me much more attractive to my husband. To him it felt like I was always challenging him, even though it wasn't my intent. And being challenged is eemasculating.

Sorry, but as usual this is all written in a big rush, so hope it makes sense.

You are all correct. Thank you for clarifying. It really makes much more sense...I needed that.

Again about the triggers...I don't think it was so much a specific trigger, as it was an accumulation of "things" during the day. Look back at that timeline. Up down up down. The rollercoaster all in one day. Surprised I wasn't barfing. I HATE rollercoasters.

By 9:00, after rollercoastering and working and going to a meeting...dang. I CAN do this...I don't FEEL the Plan B yet...

And read the above... I THOUGHT about the right response!! Darn it!! I REALLY think I was just TOO tired and emotionally strung out at that point in the day to NOT fall back on old patterns.
---->I'M GETTING IT, THOUGH-----

mimi: it didn't FEEL like I wasn't letting him go on the phone, and I don't think he perceived it that way (believe me...he's experienced me NOT letting him go before!!! scary!!).

He was very quiet and subdued. His tone of voice was sort of reluctant and slow when he said he needed to go to bed. There were these long pauses...me waiting to HEAR him if he wanted to talk...letting him know that I'll listen, I'm open to hearing him. The only time I came back...essentially not letting him go, was when I asked if there was a reason about the dog...

My response to that, BTW, although an LB in the sense of the content...was expressed in a soft, thoughtful way...genuinely questioning...that was the tone of the whole phone conversation...quiet, subdued on both our parts. Sort of sad.

This is just a big guess, but I'm thinking that RT was yapping in his ear all day yesterday about how you should be adjusting by now, how you should be handling things on your own, that by his 'being nice' you are getting the wrong idea, that's it just a D and his isn't any different than anyone else's and on and on and ON.

He knows he's coming up to a crunch time. His folks (who he loves and respects VERY MUCH) are coming home, and he needs to find somewhere to live (he was looking at places a couple of weeks ago). He knows that if he moves in with RT his FOO is going to explode. He knows he needs more money (the tax question coming out of the blue...do you two usually get a refund?) etc etc etc.

.........And on top of all that, your Plan A is getting to him. He can't admit that to RT or his parents. He's in a deep hole and he knows it, but hasn't yet figured out that he's still digging it deeper. Things are going to get much worse for him and quickly.

You just keep your light shining until you can't do it anymore. Then a DEEP DARK Plan B.

{{{{{{LilSis}}}}}}

Oh, and I'm so sorry about your dog. I'm a dog person and it breaks my heart to think of your missing her. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> You can hash that out later, just hold on to that thought.

INTERESTING..MATES...My experience EXACTLY..down to the ALWAYS CHALLENGING PART...my H has even used this very word...

I'm on board with Spoon:



Your job will be to help him find his way out.

Sis, I was specifically referring to the conversation about your dog...

Now..we are going to PRACTICE WHAT WE PREACH..and LET IT GO!!

I think you do need to wish him a HAPPY VALENTINE'S DAY..thinking of you call or TM...

Hey Sis - agree with the others that the dog - let it go and don't question his judgement.

I had to learn that there are more than MY way to accomplish something, and that my husbands way might be different, and I needed to respect that. The important stuff is covered: the dog is safe. Everything else is just gravy and unimportant.

let me also point out that many BSes here have the same fight, only with their children. Be grateful it is just the dog ....

mine too.
and i even challanged him on THAT(lol)....i said."What's wrong w/ being challanged?....... do you wan tme to be your 'yes man" all the time??

but i am very different than you, mimi and LS and Spoon...and BrambleRose. I rarely argued that my way was better than his.
I need my H for many things and he knows it...i was never a superwoman. i felt we were a team.....and sex was never an issue.
sometimes it seems like everybody just wants what he doesn't have.

in any case...i appreciate you pointing out what might be emasculating or challenging....because i don't always "see" it.

I don't either, so it's helpful to me, too...but I DO think that it's a bigger issue for MY WH (not necessarily yours, nia) than I would have thought. I DO believe that he has DEEP insecurities, and I know that this will be a challenge to me if we get to recovery.

On the flip side...maybe not so much. You know, the old LS would have been 2x4ing myself for weeks about losing the cottage reservation, about damaging the mud flap, etc. No kidding...weeks. No more. All of this--EVERYTHING--has given me SO SO SO much more persepctive. IT'S NOT THE END OF THE WORLD. Mud flaps, vacation spots...whatever. I've got healthy boys, a nice warm home, good loving friends and family, a great job. Mud flaps, Schmud flaps. Who cares??

And the dog thing...I'm so over that. The more I think about it, the more I am CERTAIN that it was the culmination of a long and an emotionally trying day, anticipating two difficult days ahead...the straw that broke the camel's back. Because I KNEW what I SHOULD say, I just didn't have the emotional strength left to do it by then.

LilSis:

Your quote:



As Pep would say:

egg zak lee

And when we get tired, we get tired. And you were getting kicked yesterday.

Next,



We have discussed your WH insecurities on this thread before. He feels behind his brothers, stagnant in his job, etc. But, you are working these and doing quite well with him. Keep going!


Did my DW feed you this line:



Because she thinks that way now. No longer has to be just perfect.

LG

LG: Noticed your new sig line. I'd say you are remarkable exactly because you ARE here! (I'm sure there are plenty of other reasons, too, but I'll leave those to Mrs. LG to shower upon you...)

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Sis,

nevermind

One down, one to go.

Not a peep from WH yesterday, not even a call to the boys to wish them a happy v-day. Guess it was too risky....he might get me. Yikes!

I'm at another point where I would just like someone to tell me what to do today. Roses would be a little hard because it is still in the single digits and WH is at work. They would freeze in an instant. I know some have suggested fake roses, chocolate ones, etc....but it's about the tradition, you know? They HAVE to be real, red roses.

I'm just feeling really alone today. I'm not going into the office today; they did my birthday thing yesterday. I do have a meeting late this morning at another location, and IC at 2:00. Other than that, I'm at loose ends aside from typical household stuff. My family is all an hour away or more, and we did the birthday thing on Sunday. The ILs are gone (it is also MIL's birthday, how weird is that?) My best friend and I are doing something this weekend.

I can't really even talk to MIL today...BIL and his three kids are arriving from ND to spend some time there and they have a day of activities planned.

Part of me thinks I should just be dark today. Don't let WH assuage his guilt by reaching out to him. Let him remember that today is my b-day and he has done nothing, didn't faciliate the kids doing anything, and I am alone. Let him call his mom to wish her a happy b-day and let her say, "And what did you do for LS today?" She will lay it on thick. She will be furious, and she will probably tell him that his insensitivity has ruined her birthday (or something like that). Good for her.

I did send a TM yesterday...a play on words related to my maiden name that fits in with the holiday. That was it.

So on Friday, when he picks up the kids or whatever...when he says, "How was your birthday?" what do I say? "It was really, really lonely" would be the honest response. However, he would just spin it somehow that it's MY fault (which it is in part) that I didn't make plans for my b-day. A couple of friends at work asked if I wanted to get together for a drink, etc., but it's a school night, I've got the kids...just seemed like more trouble than it's worth. KWIM?