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I hope Sis doesn't get her HOPES up to high and sees it as part of the GIVE, GIVE, GIVE of PLAN A without the EXPECTATION of getting anything in return...a broken record, I know.. OH! I didn't realize that was your chief concern. I inferred that you believed it would take away from my "position"...or whatever... But you know...this time around...putting that letter out there. I see it like a message in a bottle, taking a chance. Maybe--by some MIRACLE--it will be "found" and the message will get through or, more likely, it will float around out there forever, never to be absorbed. The letter is easy to give...that didn't "cost" me anything if you know what I mean...no emotional energy...as I said, I had already sort of filed it away. So...no...I expect SILENCE in response to the LETTER. I just hope it doesn't result in silence, period. ???
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Well, I guess WH couldn't have been too freaked out. He emailed me pics that he took today with the boys.
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{{{LS}}}
Awesome letter straight from the heart to the heart.
Your situation is HIGHLY COMPLEX!
HE NEEDS TO STOP THE SHOW!
3 Hots and a Cot isn't the way to go!
Doubtful he can GET OUT on HIS own without TREATMENT SUPPORT...
Connecting with Dr. Harley personally "NOW" would be a GOOD IDEA...
Our own personal efforts expenditures has limits. Burnout phase is just around the corner... Especially, with substance misuses involved...
My direct connect call experince with Dr. Harley, was the best move ever. Found him a little to late in our lives but just in time. My ex was waaaaay to far gone and spent a lifetime of manipulating councelors.
Really met his Waterloo with Dr. Harley, in thinking he could comply with the program and out-con him for awhile.
Takes a real pro like Dr. Harley to deal with this terrible nightmare world of ugly addictions that destroy the soul/will of human beings, marriages, families.
Crazy is one thing but insanity can go on forever....
Entrenchment/bondage is a harsh tyrant of a mistress that's not good for anyone.
I wonder what's he's really REBELLING about? Gotta wonder???
You are doing an OUTSTANDING WONDERFUL FABULOUS JOB!
Go with the BEST!
Hope you make the Call..bring in the A LEAGUE PRO'S!!!
Hope you can take a BREAK... I can assure you the problem will not go away. Even though your hubby there has lost the remote control the code of his true core being is in fragmented pieces right now...
Who knows he might just locate it, go straight and do right!
U might want implement a good distraction stress busters debriefing action plan to watch some hilarious ole movies.
" The gods must be crazy" is a zanny classic.
The High Drama Ramma gotta STOP! He can STOP IT. Help is available!
{{{Huggs}}}
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I know you have said before that your DH is a salesman so...something to the effect that...words to him are meaningless, blah blah to him? Probably very verbal, able to sway people? Forgive me if I'm misinterpreting... Yes..I think you are... His words were meaningless WHEN HE WAS A WS... He remains a salesman but NOW I TRUST HIS WORDS... I hope you respect my decision and understand my (probably flawed) reasoning...and you can tell me you told me so when my heart gets stomped on again. I promise I'll take my licks I most definitely respect your decision, though. However, I want to stress that I don't think that your H is special..no different than any other WH..garden variety..NO DIFFERENT THAN MINE... HE'S ADDICTED TO RT... How he displays that and acts it out may be different..BUT, IMO, ADDICTED IS ADDICTED... In fact, I LOVE THE WAY SKYDIVER PUTS IT... WHERE HAS SKYDIVER BEEN HIDING? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I made it happen..a joyful life..filled with peace, contentment, happiness and fabulocity.
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I may rant about some of Mimi's advice at times(she tends to make me shake my head sometimes), but I know she means well and has your best interest at heart(and does give good advice too)...we all care about you Lilsis.... that's why we are here. Same back at ya, MEDC..I know you mean well, etc.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Has your daughter joined the family yet? I think that's so wonderful...
I made it happen..a joyful life..filled with peace, contentment, happiness and fabulocity.
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I'm beginning to be a little troubled by all the "follow your heart" or "gut instinct" talk. Dr. H specifically states and told me that so much of both Plan A and Plan B are anti- intuitive ... that to always follow your heart or gut does more harm than good. You'd really need to read those portions of the SAA, the articles and His Needs, Her Needs to undertand why this is so. But given the last week or so, this has been on my mind more and more as I read LS' thread and mull over what's happened here the last week or so.
LS -- You've changed in the last week or so. I'm not sure whether it's your energy level, your ability to deal with the ups and downs, but the tone, tenor and responses of your posts have changed. And it worries me.
WHY do you continue to ignore all the MB vets' opinions on the need to talk to Dr. H again? It's been mentioned now so many times that it seems like you're avoiding it. Are you? And if so, why?
We all want things to go well and you've done a remarkable job, but things are changing day by day now, and it's time for a pulse check from the Harleys!!
Hang in there,
Shellybird
Last edited by shellybird; 02/18/07 11:35 PM.
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I'm beginning to be a little troubled by all the "follow your heart" or "gut instinct" talk. Dr. H specifically states and told me that so much of both Plan A and Plan B are anti- intuitive ... that to always follow your heart or gut does more harm than good. You'd really need to read those portions of the SAA, the articles and His Needs, Her Needs to undertand why this is so. But given the last week or so, this has been on my mind more and more as I read LS' thread and mull over what's happened here the last week or so.
LS -- You've changed in the last week or so. I'm not sure whether it's your energy level, your ability to deal with the ups and downs, but the tone, tenor and responses of your posts have changed. And it worries me.
WHY do you continue to ignore all the MB vets' opinions on the need to talk to Dr. H again? It's been mentioned now so many times that it seems like you're avoiding it. Are you? And if so, why?
We all want things to go well and you've done a remarkable job, but things are changing day by day now, and it's time for a pulse check from the Harleys!! EXACTLY!! I AGREE WITH YOU 100%, SHELLY!! I've been noticing this and trying to say this, too... Sis seems to be more and more wanting to do this her own way and we like her so much that lots of folks are going along with her on this. MBers, IMO, works most effectively when the PLANS are followed as closely as possible to a T..not trying to analyze or figure out the particular differences in personality or communication styles of the WS or BS.. PLAN A: Meet WS' primary ENs that were not being met prior to the A..negotiate an end to the A..ALL GIVER..no LBing..NO BEGGING AND PLEADING..if not effective.. PLAN B: Until the A has ended... Any diversion from this should specifically under the direction of the Harleys... There is no such thing as a PRE PLAN B LETTER as part of the MB PLANs...
I made it happen..a joyful life..filled with peace, contentment, happiness and fabulocity.
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I know all of our situations are different, but the Harley's plan works on a much more basic level.
I'm concerned that LS is slipping a bit into more Plan LilSis than Plan A and preparing to go into Plan B.
I know that all of us have so much empathy for LilSis. Some of us fear that what we may say will upset her or make her mad, but that is a disservice to her and her desire to save her marriage.
LilSis -- you will always be safe when you come here to vent, to talk, or whatever. You will always be supported, even when we tell you things that you may not like. I hope that's ok. We so much want you to succeed, and I truly believe that following MarriageBuilders, not always your heart or gut, really is the best chance for you.
Shellybird
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i'm reposting this in case you missed it lilsis, i've made a few changes since things have changed a bit since i posted
****
i don't post to you often because i really don't have anything to add to the wise advice that you've been getting
however, your situation is now reminding me much of mine
i did a really good plan A (in my opinion anyway) for a really long time
like you, i believed that i could just say the right things, to MAKE HIM SEE that i have changed and things could be better.....that i just didn't understand his emotional needs and now that i did, i KNOW we could be happy
i also couldn't understand what everyone else saw.... the "WS" instead of my H
(i still "see" my H but now accept and try to understand that his words and actions are no different than any other addicted WS)
although i felt that i could continue my plan A, it was clear to others, including Jennifer Harley, that it was just becomming too painful for me and i was in danger of undoing the good i had done
My h was just being too cruel and i began REACTING because i was too worn down from day after day of plan Aing and day after day of being hurt and hiding my feelings...day after day of giving and never getting the response i wanted so badly
one day having such hope from what he said or did and the next day having all of my hope destroyed
in my opinion, this is where you seem to be
i believe in my heart that the better you plan A, the more energy and love you give to it and the longer you do it...
the harder it hits when you just can't do it anymore
for awhile, you need to continue plan A again like crazy
and have a plan so that the next time you are getting to the point of lovebusting....it's plan "B" time
try to make your end to plan A better sis...but don't make it worse
if you can't continue a good "plan A"..... then plan "stay away" until you can
lilsis,
it takes so much strength and willpower and most of all devotion and LOVE to do what you have so far
I believe you can find the strength to hold on for just a little while so you can fill him with good memories before plan B
i'm praying for you
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Shelly: You words express so well what I've been thinking and feeling about Sis' situation and wanting to say to her.. Of course, I agree with you, too, Eav.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I made it happen..a joyful life..filled with peace, contentment, happiness and fabulocity.
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If plna A & plan B were so cut and dried, there would be no need for the Harley's any longer. There would simply be a formula... plug it in... and there you go. Since we are talking about people here, we need to rely on their knowledge of their partners... wayward or not... and factor that in to what they do. The follow your instinct thought would not be given to a newbie... they are being given to someone that knows Plan A and Plan B and is adapting it to her situation.
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Take yourself out of the emotional connection you have to this situation and try to have an outsiders perspective:
Interactions with BS = heavy emotional drama, fighting, tears, guilt.
Interactions with OW = flirty, fun, feeling desired/wanted. something tells me his interactions w/ OW are not equaling up to be ALL THAT right now. morning LS! ya know, after my kids, you are the first person i check on in. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> i have not read all the posts...i hope i haven't missed anything major. hope things go well on this President's day.
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And Mimi... thanks for asking... yes, she arrived on Sunday. The kids are off today and are already out sledding. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
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Shelly: I really hear what you are saying. I really do, and I appreciate you holding my feet to the fire. If I TRULY am safe here, can I respond honestly? If not, then PLEASE stop reading now. I am VERY reluctant to go down this road again, because I'm going to feel the heat. Frankly, feeling the heat from my friends here taps my energy more than it already is. I DON'T want sunshine enemas, and I don't want to feel punished, either. (that may not be the right word...) Six people posting me about how I screwed up when I mentioned the CD doesn't change what has happened. I KNEW I screwed that up...but the rest of the day went well; we got past it. Regarding the letter. Yes, I gave it to WH, against the advice of some here, but ON the advice of others (in this case, schoolbus in particular). If you disagree with that choice, please tell me that you think that was a poor choice and why...and I will listen, and based on your responses I may or may not regret my choice. Not taking someone's advice is NOT intended to offend. I get LOTS of conflicting advice. Even responses to my screw ups vary...for instance...LG saw some value in the whole CD exchange, when others (including myself) saw it a major mistake. I am obligated to sort through all of that conflicting advice; I feel I should be respectful of EVERYONE who takes the time to post to me. I may not respond personally, but I read EVERY SINGLE POST and consider what people are telling me. There are some people here (like mimi) who seem to have experienced situations very similar to mine, so I rely on her advice more than others. And I do NOT want to disappoint her or offend her if I don't follow that advice to the letter. I have been doing this for a long time, and I've been doing a good job. Yes, my energy is flagging. We all know this. The rollercoaster is really moving now. But the advice here has been to KEEP GOING, so I'm trying very hard to do that. That's the big picture. I have slipped a few times, but I've recovered. It is getting harder and harder. I had one really venting post on a particularly rollercoastery day that many people took great offense at. I certainly didn't INTEND to offend anyone with my venting...and I apologized for that post. A call to SH is in order. I want to give it a day so that I have a little more perspective on what all has happened over the last few days and where I am emotionally. Make sense? A note to mimi: Our situations ARE very, very similar. I do not think that my WH is ANY different from any other WH. I can learn SO much from you. The issue of WH's insecurity, the need for admiration, the parenting stuff...WOW...INVALUABLE!! I am forever in your debt for opening my eyes and encouraging me to STRETCH!! I hope I will always be one of your girls...even if I aggravate you and make you pull your hair out. ALL of that said, I do not always feel that I cannot share my opinions openly. Sometimes I feel like doing so is akin to putting my head out on the chopping block. There have even been times when I felt like I couldn't share things that have happened--when I KNOW I screwed up--because I won't FEEL supported. I beat MYSELF up enough...do not underestimate that! I AM sensitive...I know this and it probably drives some people NUTS. I'd just prefer it if folks just acknowledge that I screwed up and help me figure out how to move forward...not rehash what happened and what I should have done differently. So I guess this is going BOTH WAYS. I guess I'm speaking to Shelly and mimi here in response you your posts; it sounds as if you are feeling dismissed and ignored. That is NOT my intent. I am doing the best that I can...trying to follow the advice given here...and there's lots of it. For a lot of reasons, the last few days have been really, really difficult, and I am going to get my feet back under me NOW and continue on with Plan A. I know all of our situations are different, but the Harley's plan works on a much more basic level.
I'm concerned that LS is slipping a bit into more Plan LilSis than Plan A and preparing to go into Plan B. I have slipped a few times, but not because I don't WANT to do a good Plan A. I think I've demonstrated that a killer Plan A has been my intent. SH will be able to gauge my energy level. So with that in mind, what have I done--aside from giving WH the letter (which SB advised)--to indicate that I am not committed to Plan A? I just want to understand here... I know that all of us have so much empathy for LilSis. Some of us fear that what we may say will upset her or make her mad, but that is a disservice to her and her desire to save her marriage. Shelly...I so appreciate you saying that. I know it is fine line for all my coaches. I'm sure you all know that upsetting me or making me mad taps my energy even further and I am grateful that you are sensitive to that. I am hypersensitive (ugh) and I do tend to be my own VERY worst critic (Miss Perfect). I WANT to be challenged. I also don't want to feel like I'm not living up to everyone's expectations. I'm just human. I will make mistakes...and I will not ALWAYS follow one person's advice. Maybe it's just the tone of the posts sometimes...or my state of mind at the time...or that I read too much in to what people are saying. LilSis -- you will always be safe when you come here to vent, to talk, or whatever. You will always be supported, even when we tell you things that you may not like. I hope that's ok. We so much want you to succeed, and I truly believe that following MarriageBuilders, not always your heart or gut, really is the best chance for you. Thank you, Shelly. I am really going to keep that advice in mind. The past few days have been rather unusual...my huge outburst and all...now my hope is to go back to my kicka$$ Plan A and end on a good note. I sure hope that you willing to help me with that! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
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The trust your gut instinct advice is usually given when trying to figure out if there is an affair or if an affair is still going on...not for how we handle ourselves as we seek an ending to a spouse's A.
Although my husband can't recall the time well....he used to receive pages and pages of my thoughts, feelings, and ramblings...hand written...when he was actively in his A. He said he doesn't think that they hurt the situation...and may have actually helped him to see that their were real feelings involved instead of just being able to rewrite all of our history and distort who I really was.
(my husband is also a salesman through and through, as is Mimi's)
Married 1976
Me:BS
Him:FWS
MB Weekend March 2003
2 S's: '77 & '80, 1 D: '82
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something tells me his interactions w/ OW are not equaling up to be ALL THAT right now. dare I say this...that what my GUT tells me, too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> (trying to lighten it up a little) ya know, after my kids, you are the first person i check on in. I'm honored. I always look forward to your morning greeting! Hope you have a great day, too. MEDC: Glad to hear your daughter has arrived! Enjoy the day off and have fun sledding.
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Thanks, MEDC. Your feelings must not get hurt easily, because I keep NOT taking your advice and you hang in here anyway... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> mimi...I really appreciate your words and your perspective. I realize it is a chance that I am taking...and I may end up hurt, hurt, hurt. I know... It's a gut thing. I know you have said before that your DH is a salesman so...something to the effect that...words to him are meaningless, blah blah to him? Probably very verbal, able to sway people? Forgive me if I'm misinterpreting... My WH is not a verbal/language person. He's never been one for finding deeper meaning in books or film. He's very WYSIWYG. Very concrete. For him to make a connection between a movie (one of his favorite movies BTW) and his life...to make that connection AND to comment on it to me...could VERY WELL just be WH foggy-talk. There's also a CHANCE that it's not. The odds are against it, right? But I followed my heart and opened it up...and did so against your advice. I hope you respect my decision and understand my (probably flawed) reasoning...and you can tell me you told me so when my heart gets stomped on again. I promise I'll take my licks. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Which is part of the reason I was so easily fooled.
One time..he seemed to get it. I had ~finally~ protested to some outing or another...if I recall correctly he was breaking OTHER plans that had been standing for nearly a month involving multiple families needing to find childcare etc...anyway the gist was it was WEIRD to just bail...weird enough to get my attention.
He was mad...at first but then seemed to be mulling and eventually apologised and agreed.
It was so sincere. So..like him. I was ecstatic...he seemed to have ~got it~ and reoriented to reality rather than crazy teenage land.
It was such a set up and I bought it hook line and sinker.
He was buttering me up and setting me up for next time.
[something he admitted post fog in recovery]
So that is why...these things that seem to be positive relief inducing moments of clarity...well they can be the most deceitfull of all and because you are invested in them they can be very hard to forgive and forget...especially forget.
I didn't trust apologies from him for a loooooooooong time, or sincerity, or things like..."hey why not go visit some friends, I'll watch the kids" because I was suspicious of the set ups.
I learn so you don't have to. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
Cowards die many times before their deaths;
The valiant never taste of death but once ~Shakespeare
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It was such a set up and I bought it hook line and sinker. Whew! It is a relief to know that I'm not the only one. (I'm serious) I suppose no one would buy it--or appreciate or understand--if I said, "I have to make my own mistakes sometimes" ??? Hopefully I don't make the same mistake over and over and over. You might think I am, though... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Even if you did buy that I need to make my own mistakes, you'd call me $hit for brains anyway...go ahead! I deserve it, and you are absolutely entitled to call me on it.
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[color:"red"] Noodle [/color] He was buttering me up and setting me up for next time.
[something he admitted post fog in recovery] [color:"blue"] during his A, my H would call me up, have a warm loving conversation with me, meet my need to stay connected, and then when he knew I had nothing else to talk about, we'd say G'bye, and he'd be off to secretly meet OW ~~~> knowing I would not be likely to call him. For a long time after D-day, I'd call him back about 30 minutes after our conversation, to see if he'd pick up. crazy-making this Pep[/color]
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I did just go back to SAA to read up again on Plan A. I just wanted to point this out, page 77:
"How was Jon supposed to communicate with her when she didn't want to talk to him? I offered him two suggestions: letters and telephone. ...I tried to help Jon write letters that expressed to Sue what he had learned and what he would like to do to resolve their problems. These letters allowed Jon to think through his own thoughts so that he would accurately convey his feeling without expressing anger, disrespect, or demands."
So sending a letter is not out of the question or a complete no-no in Plan A. My letter was in no way a AO, DJ, or SD. It certainly was an expression of my feelings...maybe not so much on the "what I would do to resolve our problems" issue. I guess it could have been better, but what's done is done and I don't want to beat myself up over it.
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