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OK - my rant is over ... the last thing I want to do is cause another MB riot! (There seem to be enough of these lately!)

Thanks again, LH!

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Sorry for being so tardy responding. I've been researching an answer for another poster.

Well, I think MEDC was factually incorrect in saying the MB "vets" were avoiding you. It's demonstrably untrue. Orchid, for instance, is one of the site's finest pros and she's been here for you from time to time. The fact is, I think it's fairly routine that someone becomes a primary poster to a new arrival and other long-term MB’ers observe but don’t post. When a "vet" (I hesitate to use that term for myself. I’m not sure it’s legitimate.) is working with a new arrival, others don't constantly join in the conversations unless they see something being missed.

For myself, if I go to a thread and someone is working with the individual, I read and absorb, but I don't take the risk of interfering by making anything more than a “thumbs up” comment…and even that is a thing seldom done. Posting a comment that doesn’t say anything different what’s already been advised isn’t productive, so most of us don’t do it.

Take a look at the number of times someone has accessed your thread. Lots of folks are looking but few are posting. That’s pretty normal. You’re getting a “peer review,” if you want to speak of it that way, but it’s a silent one.

If you think any of this is unusual, take a look at losinit’s thread. I’m also the primary poster there of late…and he’s not even in your same situation. There are exceptions to this, TFC, and these are only my observations, but I think if you were being given invalid suggestions, someone would make it clear where I was being stupid. For instance, I guarantee you my friend Melody would cut me off at the knees if she thought I was giving you bad advice. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Now, let’s go back to the lack of demonstrable affection from your husband right now. I know that hurts. I’ve lived with it myself. That is probably something that is going to come around very slowly. Frankly, I think it may be sometime during MC that the situation begins to resolve itself. Your husband has not yet recovered from your affair, even as you haven’t fully recovered from his. I keep hitting the issue of MC and it’s because I see it as the most critical thing you two must do to heal.

I think MC for you two is especially important because the recommended solutions in SAA (15 hours a week of quality time, for instance) are things that are difficult to do because of your husband’s job. It simply keeps him on the road far too often. I know, I know. That was part of the deal when you married him and it’s not going to change. Still, I regret it. I think the only way you can combat this is to make weekends the best they can be, while understanding your daughter needs time with him too. And stuff gets in the way sometimes too.

But…MC will be worthless until your husband is ready for it and it’s still early to be expecting it. Stay strong and work on the other issues that will make your marriage stronger when recovery is complete, okay?

In the meantime, I can suggest you give your daughter extra hugs whenever you can and use the love she gives you to get past this time. It’s not the same, but it sure fills the void. I got through a lot of hard times back in the day because my daughters and I were so close.

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The fact is, I think it's fairly routine that someone becomes a primary poster to a new arrival and other long-term MB’ers observe but don’t post. When a "vet" (I hesitate to use that term for myself. I’m not sure it’s legitimate.) is working with a new arrival, others don't constantly join in the conversations unless they see something being missed.

This is what I was thinking was the case. You've been quite thorough and dedicated to MB methodology!

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But…MC will be worthless until your husband is ready for it and it’s still early to be expecting it. Stay strong and work on the other issues that will make your marriage stronger when recovery is complete, okay?

I agree that MC will be a waste of time and money if he isn't interested. I'm hoping I can convince him to do the MB Weekend in October, but that's a slim chance.

I know that I should be eternally grateful for what I am getting from him now (I am grateful, don't get me wrong), but affection is my #1 EN! Not getting that from my H leaves me with an empty feeling. I think I'm more lonely when he's home than when he's out of town. Why? Because when he's out of town, I know its unrealistic to expect [physical] affection from another city! But when he's in the room, on the same sofa, in the same bed ... that's when its the loneliest! There he is - right there! And he hardly looks at me or makes any form of contact with me other than talking. Its devastating! But I'm trying to be patient about this.

I'm also trying to be patient about other stuff too ... like being seen in public together. As I've mentioned before, H is a public figure and I used to be seen with him all the time. Now, he still doesn't wear his wedding ring and I'm never seen with him. I've heard that people are talking about how we're "on the brink of divorce" ... I would like to squash these rumors, but I can't control what other people think or say. H says he's not ready for me to be there (in the public eye) just yet - which I can understand. But I'm wondering when I can hope for such a thing? I'm sick of hearing about all the rumors, about all the girls that are delighted to hear of our impending divorce (which isn't even the case), etc. All this temptation to him could be detrimental to our M right now ... but I'm trying to think "half-full"! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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I think the glass is half-full. There are still many things that can go wrong, but there are many positive signs. He's coming around slowly but that's not unusual. If you have the opportunities, I'd work hard on IC and MC with the Harleys, plus that MB weekend. Ignore the eager rumors. They're nothing.

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The eager rumors may seem like nothing, but some of these women are like piranhas! LOL I shouldn't care what other people think, but since its part of our life to be out there for all to see and assume, I do. When that's the real reason I shouldn't care! Something to work on in IC.

Its another beautiful Southern day here LH! How's South Texas today?

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Yes, but so long as you're working to meet his EN's, it has little effect and should die down. You're right. Check with your IC.

Great day here too. Partly cloudy, but that's okay. We might even get up to 90 degrees today, and that'll be the first time this year. In 2006, we had 36 days of 90 degrees plus temps through today's date. This year -- zero. In fact the highs all year long have been 8 to 10 degrees below normal. We've had so much rain the Corps of Engineers is opening the flood gates on all the dams because they are critically full. Every drop that falls from here on out is runoff and likely to cause severe flooding. BTW, our rainiest month is July. Can you say, "Uh oh!" And to think, I deliberately made the Air Force pay my way here when I retired because of an annual average of 320 days of sunshine a year! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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Have you noticed LovingAlong's thread on getting a reluctant spouse to commit? Maybe you can check out "Joseph's Letter" linked there to see if you think it might have an impact on your relationship.

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Just read through Joseph's Letter and LovingAlong's thread. I just worry that because I had an A first, a lot of these things don't apply ... make sense? I'm not trying to be stubborn, I promise!

Its just so weird - almost like what I imagine withdrawal would be like. I never experienced withdrawal from OM - I was glad to have him gone! But now I think I'm experiencing withdrawal from my H! He would cuddle with me at night even during his A, and now he doesn't. In the middle of the night last night he had the dog in bed cuddling - I told him if he wanted to cuddle with something in our bed it should be me. He mentioned it today ... I repeated what I'd said last night. He said (jokingly?) "Cuddle with your hot [censored]? Whatever! You get me all hot and sweaty." I was HOPING this would go to "hot and bothered" ... LOL, but no such luck. So, how long should I expect this? How long can I survive in an unaffectionate marriage with affection being a top EN?

Can you tell I'm really getting depressed about this?

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Yeah, Joseph's letter would have to be modified. Thought it might give you an idea.

TFC, true affection is going to be one of the last things to come back to your marriage. There are still a lot of issues between you two and they're getting in the way. The only advice I've seen on the board is that one just has to grin and bear it as long as one can. You've got to fight the depression with any device you can find. Get extra hugs from your daughter, play with the dog when your husband is gone, talk to your sister, Mom, whatever you can do to get positive feedback when you're feeling down. Your best friend and IC are good sources to talk to also.

I'm not entirely sure what he said was a rejection, btw. The door has been opened on the subject. What can you do to turn it in your favor?

Hang tough, TFC. There have been a lot of good things happening over the past few weeks. Stay with it, okay?

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I'm definitely in this for the long haul! No worries there! I love having MB here for support - its like free therapy all day, every day! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Did you read the link in LA's thread about manipulative people? My H is an EXPERT at every last one of these ... this leaves me in a quandary over his current behavior. I see so many of these manipulative techniques being used on me time and time again. This is nothing new in our relationship, but I suppose I am more aware of all the issues that have held a place in our M over the last 6 years. I want to stay married to him and resolve not only the A issues, but all the other issues that were lingering before.

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I suspect many of those issues can be POJA'd, but some will require you two sitting with a good MC and hashing them out. I sure hope you can get some sessions with the Harleys. They can do more in one hour on the phone than some counselors can do in a month of meetings.

Have you checked into their home course?

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I will def check into the home course ... especially since H isn't ready for MC yet. But I am quickly realizing how much we really do need MC.

Btw - Tonight H brought up that he realized that there was no one else to carry on his name. Then said to DD "Well, DD, looks like we're going to have to get you a little brother." H knows how much I want another baby, especially a boy. This was so weird! Was he messing with my head? Is he seriously contemplating having a baby? Who knows! I can't even ask him - every time a baby is brought up since my A he says he can't even think about having a baby with me. So, I guess its just one of those things that I shouldn't think too much about ... I'm probably over-analyzing.

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Hi, stopped in to check on you...

TBH, I think that you are reading into it...it is what it is! Plain and simply!

Here's something that I've heard in Al-anon before that I applied to STBX when he was WH...

At the timet hat they say thigns like this THEY are sincere! In my cases and with many others i think that it's the following through that's the hard part for them!

Just take it as an open and honest staement on his part! He's thinking about it...it's come to his mind...and let it go!

My concern is the fact that you feel that you can't bring it up...Why? Is your lack of action based on what YOU think he will say? If that's the case, how can you live life continually reacting to things?

Sometimes...well, most of the time, it's better from my experience to live beyond that fear...fear is courage turned inside out! not to mention, typically what "WE" think will happen will not...but as human beings we hold committee meetings in our heads playing out what will happen...

This is insanity from my POV...for me it was...I would repeat the sitch in my head SOOO many times that "I" knew the outcome...NOT the case...I let my fear take hold on me...constantly reacting...endly cycle!

The defintion of insanity is repeating the same thing over and over again expecting different results! For the longest time I didn't "GET IT"...

I strongly recommend that you use that wonderful voice of yours and speak up...easier said than done...I'm still working on it myself...finding that I fear saying what's truely on my mind...but that's when that committee is speaking up...live through the fear...

It's things like "knowing" what the OP is going to say that's one of those threads in the quilt of enmeshment!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Supporting you all the way!

((((TFC))))


A loving heart is the beginning of all knowledge.
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Strivn - thanks for checking in! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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My concern is the fact that you feel that you can't bring it up...Why? Is your lack of action based on what YOU think he will say? If that's the case, how can you live life continually reacting to things?

I can't bring it (or a lot of things) up b/c I don't feel "safe" in doing so. I realized that he prob felt the same way a little while ago, and have tried my best to create an open forum for calm discussion, with no retribution. My H has been quite on-edge as of late, so I generally walk on eggshells to avoid unnecessary conflict.

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Sometimes...well, most of the time, it's better from my experience to live beyond that fear...fear is courage turned inside out! not to mention, typically what "WE" think will happen will not...but as human beings we hold committee meetings in our heads playing out what will happen...

So, how do you break through the fear? I do have that committee - it speaks more than I do, I think. I assume that I know H well enough to know what his reaction will be to almost everything. I'm rarely proven wrong, but that could be because I don't take the risk often to find out.

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The defintion of insanity is repeating the same thing over and over again expecting different results! For the longest time I didn't "GET IT"...

You know, I say this all the time! Time for me to practice what I preach?

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H has been "on-edge" a lot since his last trip. I personally question whether he saw OW on that trip or not. We know that she sent him that TM, but does that mean that they didn't see each other? Was it coincidence that they were in the same city and she sent that TM? Not sure. But he is blowing up at me for no reason lately ... just like he did when he was seeing her. He claims it is stress - and he does have a lot going on right now. But it oddly started up on a bigger level right after her attempted(?) contact.

This morning he came downstairs and I was cleaning up. He said "hey". I looked up from the dishes, smiled, and said "good morning". Then he blew up! He literally glared at me and asked what my attitude was for! I truly didn't have one! It was bizarre! I generally chalk it up to his emotions, lack of sleep, and stress. But it gets old. Then he threatened D again ... He left to go out of town again today. He'll be back home Sunday.

So, I've realized that I have absolutely NO control over whether or not he sees or talks to OW, as I cannot control him. I know that I can control what I do. However, I have no way of knowing for sure if they are still in contact. So, I have 2 days to get my head back on straight. I feel like I'm spinning.

Anyone want to "talk" me through this?

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The roller coaster goes up in one stretch; the roller coaster goes down in another, TFC. I was beginning to wonder when something like this would happen because my experience is the course of any human being's recovery is never a straight-line progression. What you need to do right now is remember all the progress you made over the past couple of weeks and bring all the good, and all the bad, events into one coherent context.

Take a deep breath now and let it out. Repeat. Things are never quite as bleak as you think while you're going through the event.

Talked to your best friend lately? Remember what you last relayed from her? Remember her asking where that young woman she used to know had gone? Remember the incident earlier that day, or the previous day, where your husband was irritated when you wouldn't speak up for yourself? Remember how good you felt when you did blurt out what was bothering you?

TFC, when he started in on you, it was disrespectful, and you had a perfect opportunity to restate your boundary on manipulation and disrespect. A 180 opportunity was thrust on you without warning. Stunned you, didn’t it?

I sympathize. It’s easy for me to advise you from long distance; I’m not the one who has to feel the raw emotions and feel the blood drain from my face in shock when the attack comes out of the blue, do I? Except that I’ve been there too, TFC. I know what happened to you and I’m so sorry you had to go through it.

From this point forward, TFC, I think you must prepare yourself in advance for the possibility of such setbacks coming at you without warning. Preparation is the key. Think about what you’ll do and say the next time it happens. When it comes at you, state your boundary and unwillingness to be manipulated. Keep your wits about you, TFC. Remember what that girl your best friend would have done there, okay? Use some of Orchid’s reverse babble if he brings up divorce again if you have a good RB response…then turn around and walk away from it. It won’t do any good to stand and argue about it. You won’t change his attitude; he has to do that for himself.

Okay, your hubby may be acting as I’ve seen other WS’s act when they break NC. The possibility must be considered…but I hope I’m wrong. I hope the fact she was in the same city may just have created some stress in your husband that only added to the highly stressful time frame you say he’s going through and he boiled over. It could be as simple as that. Let’s hope it is. Unless you ask him (calmly and ready to hear what he says one way or the other), TFC, you’ll never know. I’ll ask again. Where’s that young lady your best friend was missing?

I forget. Are you looking at his cell phone records on line? Has there been any activity there? Has he been taking (or making) phone calls in private lately? Any red flags other than a bad attitude lately? Gather all the information you can so you can make as good a determination as possible, okay?

BTW, to finish off something you said just yesterday, “Hot and sweaty,” is usually man-speak for what you’d rather he’d have said.

Okay, time for me to shut up and let others talk to you. I don’t often ask people directly to do certain things because I AM just an amateur out here. I’m going to break my rule this one time, TFC. Bluntly, I would like you to bring up these issues with your IC and get feedback from your best friend too.

What I see, as have others, is you can work on yourself in this area as a part of your Plan A and it’ll be beneficial even if your husband does keep on threatening divorce. Stay strong, TFC. This is a rough spot, but you will get through it. Don’t LET yourself go spinning through life, okay?

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Use some of Orchid’s reverse babble if he brings up divorce again if you have a good RB response…then turn around and walk away from it. It won’t do any good to stand and argue about it. You won’t change his attitude; he has to do that for himself.

I was proud of myself for my reaction today. He said we were done and that it was over. I brought to his attention that he keeps threatening D. He said that this time it was no threat ... I said "fine - go get the D" and walked off. He stormed downstairs and packed the car, loudly. Then he came in and sat at the breakfast table like nothing ever happened!

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TFC, when he started in on you, it was disrespectful, and you had a perfect opportunity to restate your boundary on manipulation and disrespect. A 180 opportunity was thrust on you without warning. Stunned you, didn’t it?

Is it too late? Can I 180 while he's gone today and tomorrow? Not call him, get off the phone first when he calls, etc. Would this still show him that I won't tolerate being treated like I was this morning?

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BTW, to finish off something you said just yesterday, “Hot and sweaty,” is usually man-speak for what you’d rather he’d have said.

I normally would agree. But it has been a week! The only time we go a week without SF is if he's out of town for longer than that ... but he's been home! My H has a healthy sexual appetite, so his loss of one is very concerning. Though I am trying really hard to blame it on his current stress.

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Unless you ask him (calmly and ready to hear what he says one way or the other), TFC, you’ll never know. I’ll ask again. Where’s that young lady your best friend was missing?

I want to ask him, but I don't want to start another argument. Maybe I'll ask anyway - his reaction is up to him, mine is up to me right?

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I forget. Are you looking at his cell phone records on line? Has there been any activity there? Has he been taking (or making) phone calls in private lately? Any red flags other than a bad attitude lately? Gather all the information you can so you can make as good a determination as possible, okay?

I still check occasionally. The only contact I've noticed is that one TM that he told me about. But who's to say they didn't just get sneakier? I just have to go with what proof I have and the facts are that there is no real evidence of contact.

Thanks for calming me LH!

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You say he's awfully mercurial lately and exhibited it again this morning. Strange days, indeed. I don't know what to make of it, TFC, particularly if you haven't detected anything overt in his records. What other methods of long distance contact could they have? Instant messaging or emails? Have any of his habits with respect to computer use changed recently?

Regarding asking him right now if he broke NC: If you want to confront him, it’s what you should do. If that’s what you need as that young woman your friend has been missing would do, then do it. Time for some Dutch Uncle stuff – be true to yourself…but considerate of others too, okay? Enough said.

An alternative could be to wait until he’s in the midst of another (shall we call it a tantrum?) and make a comment something like, “You’re acting just like you did when you were still (in contact with XXX). What’s going on here? Did you hear from her…or did you see her up in (wherever)?” It’s your call. You do what you need to do to clear the air.

With your expanded comments on this morning’s event, I think you handled it very well. Next time, tell us all this in one post, okay? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, I think tossing the “D” ball back in his court was exactly what was called for. Now, I don’t know how even your tone of voice was but if you did it calmly, without showing distress, it was excellent RB. Did you phrase it as Orchid suggests…appearing to agree while throwing him a curve ball?

{{Here’s an excerpt from the book about the continuing story of TFC and Hubby.

TFC turned to hubby with a concerned expression. “You know what, honey?” she said without any particular intonation. “If you keep acting like DD when she was two years old and throwing a tantrum, I think your suggestion of a “D” might be the best thing for everyone concerned.” }} <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Forgive my impertinence, okay?

Whether or not you did all that when you were shocked and stunned (it would be really, really hard to do it all when slapped in the face with his sharp recalcitrance)…it seems to have had the desired effect of taking him aback and calming him down. Good stuff.

That doesn’t mean I’m going to back off on IC recommendations and encouraging you get together with your best friend though. You’re not addressing my questions about IC and that makes me wonder what you’re holding back? Is there something I should know, TFC?

Stay strong, lady.

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I was actually quite calm about throwing the D ball back ... I guess I'm just sick of the threats.

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{{Here’s an excerpt from the book about the continuing story of TFC and Hubby.

TFC turned to hubby with a concerned expression. “You know what, honey?” she said without any particular intonation. “If you keep acting like DD when she was two years old and throwing a tantrum, I think your suggestion of a “D” might be the best thing for everyone concerned.” }} Forgive my impertinence, okay?

Funny stuff, LH! Should I decide to make a book about this, maybe I'll enlist you as a ghostwriter! LOL

I'm sorry I've not responded about IC comments ... nothing to note, except I don't have another appointment scheduled until next week. I'm just making notes as I go along of stuff to bring up in my next session.

My best friend is moving back here! I'm so excited! Having her closer will be great for me. She will help with DD and be there for me when H is out of town. I am looking forward to having her here to hold me to being an older, wiser version of that girl I used to be!

I'll try to be better about included all pertinent info in one post ... I just feel like I get so long-winded sometimes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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Haha. I'm glad you enjoyed the excerpt. I've been a jury member a few times and even in a high intensity assault case, the judge and attorneys found time for a quip now and then to relieve tension. BTW, if you want to write about anything, do it!

K, I hope you think it worthwhile to bring up some of the things S4B and I have suggested. I'd even like to hear if IC says I personally am full of...stuff...okay?

Great news about your best friend. I'm really, really glad to hear that.

Don't be concerned about the length of your posts. I've seen some that take me half an hour to read...and I'm a very fast reader. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I have to go pay bills and buy some vittles 'cause the cupboard is bare.

ttyl

LH

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