Here is my thread from Recovery:


http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...part=1&vc=1


D-day #3 yesterday.

Sorry you are back. So has he ever had to move out of the house? I can't remember. For me, that would be the next step - him out. The more times they break NC, the more love you lose. He seems to think that he can do what he pleases.

He has never had to move out. The kids still do not know anything.

So is he still planning on moving out tomorrow?

I_L_L,

Tell the kids! Tell everyone!
No more cake-eating!!!

PGA

The link in your post needs correction. It only points to your profile. How about giving us a synopsis instead. Sometimes it helps to clarify things in your mind if you write a summary of everything that's happened to date.

Points I'd be interested in seeing are: Is this the same OW or are you dealing with a serial cheater? What exposure did you do? Why did you not expose to the children? When did you begin Plan A? How long do you plan to do Plan A and what is the projected date to begin Plan B? Where are you living (if not the marital home)? Where is he living?

In short, make a nice little summary with all kinds of details, okay.

Sorry you're here. That you've come over from Recovery (sic) says you've been facing a problem for a while now. Welcome aboard. There are lots of folks who'll help you get through this.

LH

Sorry for the mistakes. I'll copy and paste my relevant posts.

my sig line has a bit of a synopsis.

We have had 2 false recoveries. We had been doing the MB study course since Dday #2. Missed a lot of weeks. H had been getting better and better, but also worse and worse. His changes for the worse have been more in the last month. Before that, it was pretty good.

This recent OW is the same one (OW #2.) They worked together. After D day 2, she transferred to a different building and eventually quit. There was a NC phone call which I heard. The A was exposed at work, but not by me.

We did not tell the children because we were trying to keep it together. H has never moved out, nor have I. Our youngest has some pretty extreme needs. Many of our choices have been about trying not to harm this child.

I don't know how to respond to the Plan A/B question. I suppose I've been in Plan A for 18 months! I have changed drastically and addressed every issue that he raised to the
best of my ability. I have been consistent with that.

Plan B?? I have told him we either plan for his moving out or he demonstrates change. He asked me tonight what I want from him to show change. I told him I want him to do MB counseling and do whatever is suggested. He agreed to join me for the appointment I am trying to set.

Here are my other relevant posts, pasted in. Haven't figured out linking or copying over yet.

From Feb. 20:
If starting a new thread is not a good thing, somebody tell me. My old one has aged to the second page.

Anyway, I need some help here from somebody who isn't me.

The sitch:

OW2 eventually quit her job last year and moved to a similar job in another town. (Not far away.) H occasionally (but not often) must go to that location. The likelihood of his having unintentional contact with her in those situations is similar to the likelihood of contact if, for example, OW worked in one store at the mall and H had to go to a meeting at a store at the other end of the same mall. It's enough to make me uncomfortable, but usually not enough to send me over the edge.

But the last 2 weeks he has been dropping by that location when it isn't "Necessary".... to stop by the cafeteria for dinner on the way to his moolighting job because it is cheap, fast, and nutritious.

The first time he called me on the way to that job and I told him I was uncomfortable-- so he didn't go. The next work night, he told me after the fact that he had gone. And last night he did it again.

And so we had a long argument about it. I am sure I LBd all over the place.

I said: I cannot imagine that anyone in my situation would think it was OK for a spouse to casually drop by the affair partner's place of work for dinner. And I think it is extremely selfish and inconsiderate of you to do so. And in spite of my numerous requests, you have never presented me with any concrete plan for you to avoid temptation, stay out of trouble, and protect me from further affairs. You have no plan at all for what you would do if you did see her. And I think you decided that that level of risk is OK for you. And I would like to get counseling with the Harley's to figure this out. We could use the input of a third party. I am willing to be told I am being unreasonable.

He said: I think you won't be happy until I resign those aspects of my profession that require me to ever go to that place. I went there because of the food. I wasn't thinking about OW. I have never seen her there and don't know her exact workplace or department. Fine. I won't go there for dinner any more. Settled. I am not interested in counseling. We are adults and can work this out. I don't think it is possible to make concrete plans like you are suggesting, but go ahead and tell me what you want them to be.

Me: You need to work on this yourself. You are the one who wants "concrete". A counselor would help translate between my "conceptual" and your "concrete." You may not have been thinking at all about OW, or consciously thought that you were risking contact with her. But that is a problem, too: you have huge blind spots to temptation. And you refuse to put up fences that would keep you away from it. I am taking at face value what you have told me-- that both OW initially cam on to you and that you "just happened" to fall in love with OW # 2.... and telling you that you need to take steps way earlier on to avoid these situations.


We got nowhere but miserable, the planned-for SF of course didn't happen and I do not know what to do next.

This was a 1.5 hour late-night fiasco, so there was a lot more said, but this is the gist. I want him to take ownership of avoiding temptation, and he isn't.

Anyone?

From Feb. 26:
I need advice in a hurry this morning.

HAd to be away this weekend. Huge anxiety. 2 fights with H. He was eonderful when I got hime, but is very sick. He will be home early today.

This morning I found evidence of a "pay as you go" cell phone.

I think it is relatively recent, but I don't know.

I am trying to figure out what to do.

First, I will not endure any more cake eating.
Unless his explanation and proof are iron clad that this is old, the boundary enforcement is going to increase.

Second, our kids know nothing of all this. I am thinking of exposing to the older kids and tell them a separation may be in the works before I confront H with the evidence. DS22 is at school this morning, wil be home in a couple of hours. DS 19 is at school on another coast, and that would have to be over the phone.

I have no capability of sitting on this past today with H.It will be confronted.

I ned a lifeline.

I am going to the gym, will check back in a n hour or so.

and this:

He admitted the phone. He admitted continued contact. He denies it is more than talking. He thinks it is unreasonable to demand complete NC.

ANd I have told him to make a choice. He wants until Wednesday night.

I can't stop talking at him. I can't believe he is doing this.
Feb. 27:
Him: "I don't want to break our family up."

Me: "Then you have to take action."


Fog is thick. Babble everywhere.

I have not pressed for much detail about how long, etc. because 1. He thinks he is drawing a line in the sand about that ("I don't have to let you read my diary!") and 2. He hasn't told me the truth yet, why waste my breath asking?

It is torture to allow him his requested 2 days. But i don't want to break my family up, either. I told him last night I had never stopped loving him, and that I was still trying to throw him a lifeline to keep from destroying his children, and that if he wants that lifeline no one else in the world will love him more or support him more.

And I stepped out on a limb (what's to lose at this point?) and brought God back in to the discussion. If God talk offends you, stop reading now.

Talked about sin and redemption. Told him that as much as his behavior makes me question how there could be a loving God, my behavior might be meant to give him hope that there is.

ME: You sin. I get to die. I die. You get to live again.

Him: Say that again?

Me: (Repeat). There is so much hope for a joyful, loving life together. All of the suffering you have put me through is on the table. Please "come home."

I tried to speak truth as I understand it. It hurts me so much to watch the moral collapse of a good man.

Anyway, he kissed me goodbye this morning and I made him stop and do a better job of it. LOL! And he did. And DS13, who is having some bad days, protested irritably. H said:

"When your parents kiss, it is a good thing for you."

And went to work. I asked him to try to ditch his extra job for tonight. He said he would try but it would be tough to find someone to take his shift.

I suppose I should move this to GQ2, since I ain't exactly in recovery!

H has agreed to attend an appointment with SH.

He says he has no problem with verifiable NC (but we have been down that road before.)

He is withdrawing affection from me. I hope that means there is some actual withdrawal going on.

He says "You can't make me move out of the house."

His jutification for watching me suffer incredibly through 2 years of cake-eating-- his plan being to hang on until DS 13 is grown (and I'll be 60...) ?

"I didn't have to decide."

I am having trouble stopping the LBs but in my own defense, i've had some serious LBs thrown at me.

SO we shall see what comes with counseling.

Various soundbites from the last 2 days:

Him: You know I am not going to leave you.
You are furious with me because you think I have continued with an affair and because I have lied to you.
I am facing losing my marriage, my family, and hundreds of thousands of dollars over a friendship that just consists of talk about the weather.
You need to see a "grand gesture." OK, I'll try to come up with a grand gesture.

Me: I am baffled. I cannot wrap my brain around your continued lying to me.
You are facing losing those things because of an affair and lies.
I need complete transparency and verifiable no contact. I need to see you work with a counselor to figure out how to make sure those things happen and how to create a happy life together.
Lying doesn't just destroy me. It destroys you. It corrodes our M from within and eliminates any possibility of real intimacy.
Unless you can make a real return to this M we have no future.

His current version of the timetable of the new phone is sometime in December. Whatever. I can see looking back over the last several weeks how the alien fog has increased.

Oh, and I think I feel used by his plan to keep our M together just long enough to get our DS13 raised? He feels used because he has worked his butt off for years and has nothing to show for it. (except a nice income, nice cars, nice trips, and someone to take care of his very sick child.)He never planned to marry a housewife. But never mind all that, let's just figure out how to move forward.

This huge resentment of his is over the one area in which I continue to stumble. Obviously,it doesn't matter what I do about other ENs, this one has moved to the top of his list and I have to figure out a way to address it. 15 years out of my profession, aged 52, and with a sick child. I have stumbled over this for years. And do feel stuck and paralyzed, unable to move into a solution.

After that verbal detour, we went back to NC and lies talk.

And this morning he verifiably kissed me goodye.

And as if that were not enough drama, my mom has picked this week to refuse the dialysis that is keeping her alive.My sister and I have talked to her, cried with her, tried to convince her, and she says she wants to live but just "can't do dialysis today."

Arggh.

First things first, this A needs to be exposed to EVERYBODY, including your kids. TRUST ME, his "innocent" talk about the weather will seem a lot less innocent when his children show their disapproval. Seriously, does a talk about the weather require a hidden cell phone?

When he says that you can't throw him out, you stand up for yourself and say that you WILL throw him out. Tell him that it would work out better for him if he moved out rather than have all his stuff on the lawn exposed to the weather. He can't be at home ALL the time to prevent the locks from being changed. Stand up to him and don't take his [censored] anymore.

I am thinking through an exposure plan, pending counseling appt.

Limbo-

MC good and a lawyer is great. Many a times people fear the unknown.

I don't know where you live but from what I am reading in most states he would lose a lot.

He would have at least 5 years of child support and a life time of alimony. In my state after ten years an M is considered long term therefore the W is entitled to alimony forever.

Now I only bring this up to give you the mental leverage you may need to save your M.

I was deathly afraid of upsetting the applecart, I am a man, until I realized she wouldn't get everything I thought in a D and I made sure I postioned my self to get more the longer we stayed married.

I accomplished two things. Trying to save M and enchancing my position if we did get a D.

I am now in recovery. I don't think I would have been there if I didn't know my legal rights.

You are right he is wrong!!! NC means NC. So move forward and gather your information.

Good luck on the counseling and I am wishing you the best.

In_Limbo_Land,

I see you're online some I'm going to take a minute to say "hi"! "HI!!" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> May I call you Limbo??

I hope you don't mind, but I want to give you and extra (((((Limbo))))) hug today. I see that you are about my age, with two older kids and one younger, special needs kid...and I just wanted to say that I do understand one thing that some of these 30-something whipper-snappers don't...and that is that at 50 with a 20-25 year marriage under your belt...THIS ISN'T SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN. Some little part of your head says, "Twenty years just can not be flushed down the toilet like this!"

I think I concur with the folks who say expose to your children. Now, it is a fine line that you will walk, but your older two are not infants anymore. They must know that SOMETHING is going on between you two, and they are old enough to understand some of the important things about a relationship. This is NOT a time to be bitter or throw around Angry Outbursts (AO) or Disrepectful Judgments (DJ) about their dad, but it IS time to be factual and informative.

In the same way that a younger person might expose to their WS's parents...you should expose to your children. "Son...daughter...this is very difficult for me to tell you because I was trying to protect you from being hurt, but your father has been in an ongoing affair with another woman. I found out back in Aug. 2005 and have been trying to deal with it by myself since then. I love you dad and very much want to save our marriage and our family, yet despite my efforts, he had continued to stay in contact with the other woman and will not completely let her go. I know he is your father, and you love him and want him to be happy, but we made vows to each other that we would find love and happiness with each other. I am willing to admit the mistakes I made in not meeting some of your dad's needs and in doing things that destroyed our love rather than built it up...and I am willing to work on it so we can build it back up. Will you please help me to encourage your dad to stay in this marriage and family and give up this other woman completely?"

See how that does not judge him or tear him down, but it does tell the TRUTH? It is transparent honesty, and Limbo--your kids are old enough. They can take it. You need their help to convince the addict that he needs to decide to give up the drug. Right now, he still has you, has his drug, has the kids fooled, and has his job. When he starts seeing that all the needs that you meet will go away...and the kids will go away...and the job may be in jeopardy because of his drug--well his drug can not cover all that!! He may start to get the picture.

Finally, I know that you are 52yo and have been out of your field for a long time. I know how scary that can feel (I was 42 and self-employed at home--so I KNOW), but let me lift you up and encourage you. You have WISDOM and abilities that can only come with maturity. The young folks out there may have ambition and energy, but you have great skill and wisdom, and you will be a valuable employee or maybe even a manager for someone. It is scary to put yourself out there like that again, but you can do it. Begin to consider how you might get there. Maybe begin some classes now...or look for a lower job to get some experience over the next couple months.

(((((Limbo))))) Good job!!

Your faithful friend,


CJ

Uhmmm <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> ......yea, Right ........pack a Lunch buddy!



Well then its also unreasonable to further encourage his behavior,
by hiding, protecting and otherwise keeping his dirty little secrets (when HIS OWN continued actions) SHOW that by doing so your simply Enabling Him.

Time your H learned some lessons that he must have never gotten in his youth,
Yes indeed, you get 2nd chances ........but There are ALSO Consequences to our Behavior and Choices.

Since his choice is to continue,
your choice should be to NOT continue to Help him do it (How ? by not forcing him to have to answer for his Actions).

Remember that its HIS actions that are forcing your hand (cause you did your part by keeping quiet, and all that did was let him continue on his selfish merry way).

Wishing you only success in your journey. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[edited for some of my fast typing no no's]

Frog, CJ, Rope,

Thanks so much for the encouragement today.

I may not be able to post much but I am reading.

What an awful week.

My mother has now stated clearly that she is ready to stop fighting. Hospice is being called in, dialysis discontinued, and we are down to days or maybe a couple of weeks. (She's missed 2 dialysis sessons already.)
We'll be going to where she is tomorrow afternoon.

This would be hard under any circumstances, but my H's betrayals make it so much worse. I know I can't count on him-- even though he is going through the motions of "support." I'm so disappointed and discouraged.

And tonight, when I was taking the dog to the kennels , DS13 started to rage and went after DS22. When DS22 called me to rush home, I was 20 minutes away and couldn't help. Came home to 2 fragile, defeated kids, and a broken bannister (I think he kicked it...)

It is all so surreal. I called H to tell him about the rage and got voice mail. By the time he called back an hour later the drama was over, so he went off to his "extra" job. Hasn't said "I love you" all day, though we've had several calls. I don't know why that particularly surprises or disappoints me. But can't he just cancel his life for a few weeks to deal with my stuff?

On the other hand, he is acting supportively. Cancelled his afternoon tomorrow so we can get out of town. Would have gone tonight if I'd wanted. But how do you work on fixing a marriage crisis and get through a death-of-parent crisis at the same time?

It's just that the whole structure of my life has evaporated.

Oh, and about exposure to kids. DD19 is on another coast. And has a birthday Monday. I think I absolutely have to hold off until after counseling.

I hope I remember to make the counseling call Tuesday morning.

Just a bump to invite you all to join my pity party.

H showing affection and ILYs and support but silent about the little NC problem. No crushing remorse that I can discern. I dunno, maybe he is waiting until counseling to take any steps.

Had an ineraction full of mutual LBs this afternoon. Then drove the hours to see my mom.

Asked H tonight how we are going to get the third person out of the middle of our M. He said he is just going to have tofigure out a way to tell her he can't talk to her any more that I will believe. "You can dummy up anything."

In today's talk he acknowledged looking her up one day in Dec.and then getting the cell phone.

It is torture to just be ::waiting:: more days for counseling.

I know there is no answer to this, but what was he thinking?