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Joined: Feb 2007
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JL,

The plan "sounds" fine. Great! The problem would be if she chooses not to follow it. She has always "said" the right thing, however, will she "live it" You should not "talk it" if you can't "live it". So, that is the dilema with situations like this. You never know if a person is true. I guess you just have to put your faith in GOD that the person is true.

HF


Hope_full

Me - BS - 35
Her - FWW - 35
3 children
12 year marriage
Affairs were during 2005
OM#1 Met/Kissed-2/05, EA 2/05-5/05
OM#2 First Night Stand 5/05,Kissing 7/05, EA 05/05-12/05
Emotional DD w both OM's - 7/05
Physical DD - 7/06(Intial) - 5/07 (Details)
NC OM#1 5/2005
NC OM#2 12/2005
Joined: Aug 1999
Posts: 15,284
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Ah! But a good plan should include ways to alay your fears. It should provide for a way for her to rebuild your trust, not just say "trust me" I have it figured out. A good plan should include you in someway. Think about it.

God Bless,

JL

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JL,

That is the problem that I face. I don't know of a way to alleviate my fears. That is what trust is about. Of course I don't trust her so how would I bring myself to truely believe anything that she says.

Again, she has always been able to say the "right" things. I believe she communicates how she "should" feel and not what she really feels at the time. I know she did that in the past. She says she felt certain things and she knew they were wrong but she would not communicate that to me because since she had not acted on them, she did not want to rock the boat or mess up a good thing.

So, I know she knows what to say. The issue is if she really means it this time. She says she does. She says these are her true feelings and her plan. She says that it is truely her plan and it is not a plan that just sounds good.

Still hard to believe. I have a hard time even believing that she "loves me deeply" and she is "so in love with me". I can't see how a person can be deeply in love right now but 2 years ago, she behaved as if she "hated me". She did everything in her power to try to destroy me as a person. That leads me to believe she did not love me at all then. So, how can a person do a 180 and all of a sudden be madly in love. Crazy. Even if it is true, that is just hard to accept as a BS.

HF


Hope_full

Me - BS - 35
Her - FWW - 35
3 children
12 year marriage
Affairs were during 2005
OM#1 Met/Kissed-2/05, EA 2/05-5/05
OM#2 First Night Stand 5/05,Kissing 7/05, EA 05/05-12/05
Emotional DD w both OM's - 7/05
Physical DD - 7/06(Intial) - 5/07 (Details)
NC OM#1 5/2005
NC OM#2 12/2005
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 91
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Also, because she decided not to give all the details of the affair at once, this whole episode has been strung on way longer than needed. She thought by withholding details, she was somehow helping. I have tried to tell her time and time again that she damaged the recovery. Our recovery has been delayed. We have not even started to build trust because who could trust someone who is still lying. Who could trust someone who still has not faced the truth? She was still in denial about what happened. She still could not see the A for what it was. That all has hendered recovery and the rebuilding of trust. She says I have been weak because we have been going through this for 2 years but I really think she has been the weak one not facing the truth of her actions.

HF


Hope_full

Me - BS - 35
Her - FWW - 35
3 children
12 year marriage
Affairs were during 2005
OM#1 Met/Kissed-2/05, EA 2/05-5/05
OM#2 First Night Stand 5/05,Kissing 7/05, EA 05/05-12/05
Emotional DD w both OM's - 7/05
Physical DD - 7/06(Intial) - 5/07 (Details)
NC OM#1 5/2005
NC OM#2 12/2005
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 91
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When do these things go away?

1. Thinking about the affair just about every time I look at my wife and she looks beautiful. The better she looks, the more I think about the affair.
2. Thinking about the affair every time we kiss.
3. Thinking that we just are not compatiable whenever we spend time and it is not "exciting" or "passionate". She acted very different when she was with her friends during the A. She has this other persona(party girl) that she turns into when she is around other couples or friends. She does not seem to have a good time unless everyone is loud, laughing and drinking. IF it is normal talk hanging out with couples or friends, she thinks it is boring or it was not a good time.
4. Thinking that she "NEVER" loved me if she could turn to an affair after a few hours of meeting someone and then continuing the relationship after the ONS or even Discovery. She enjoyed the affair. She enjoyed the night of flirting and acting wild and even pleasing a stranger sexually. Maintaining it was more important than maintaining her husband during that time. A stranger was worth more than a person(not to mention a husband/friend) she knew for 10 years.


Hope_full

Me - BS - 35
Her - FWW - 35
3 children
12 year marriage
Affairs were during 2005
OM#1 Met/Kissed-2/05, EA 2/05-5/05
OM#2 First Night Stand 5/05,Kissing 7/05, EA 05/05-12/05
Emotional DD w both OM's - 7/05
Physical DD - 7/06(Intial) - 5/07 (Details)
NC OM#1 5/2005
NC OM#2 12/2005
Joined: Feb 2007
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Hello All,

Need Help. My wife and I went to MC yesterday for the first time in 7-8 months. The MC seems to be very good. Pro-Marriage, Christian, Great Background, and seems to be very intelligent/experienced, etc.

We spent the majority of the session just trying to go back to pre-affair and moving through the year of 2005 when the affairs took place. We got about half way through 2005.

My wife and I both stated that the marriage was good prior to 2005 but not great. The counselor immediately identified and diagnosed me with PTSD. He stated that he oringally thought I had General Anxiety because the affair discovery was back in 2005. However, he stated that because of all the lies from 2005 to July 2007, that I was definately suffering from Tramu.

He also stated the alcohol does not make anyone do something they don't have thoughts about doing. My wife stated that drinking made her do something she did not want to do. He stated that she must have had feelings and thoughts and the alcohol allowed to act on them without feeling guilt/remorse/ect. My wife did not buy that but he said it has been proven. So, he wanted to focus on the marriage prior to the affair. He feels that there were some things that were not right prior that allowed my wife to want to pursue an extra-marital affair. Again, my wife says the affair just happened---twice in a few months after going 8 years without so much as an opposite sex friend.

We identified that we did not really have discussions about our inner feelings/emotions. My wife was very guarded and was not willing to share some of her feelings/desires.

Also, after couseling, my wife and I talked about some things that were missing. During that conversation, my wife really started to discover that she is really "money driven".

In 2004, I left a high paying job to run our business with my wife. Prior to 2004, my wife ran the day-to-day operations by managing two supervisors. I did the bookkeeping/financial reporting/paperwork/etc while holding down a fun time job. I left my job because my wife stated that she could no longer handle running the day-to-day operations. However, when I became involved, she wanted me to work under her direction. We had talked about being equal partners, however, she felt that I should take direction from her. Also, we have two different management styles. In the beginning of 2005, I started to pursue other business oppurtunities. During this time, she seemed to have lost respect for me and would talk to me direspectfully.

She then went on her first trip to de-stress. She met a man who seemed to make "good money". The kissed and started a phone relationship. He lost his job and that was the end. My wife ended the relationship because he lost his job. The next trip, my wife met another man who seemed to make good money. She was attracted and states she became sexually to fuel his attraction to her. She states she did not want sex but wanted to please him and make him fall in love with her. She said they talked about Business and Business Opportunites. He said he was all about "Making Money".

My wife says she felt he was her soul mate. However, her soul mate was nothing like me. She used to tell me that she was attracted to me because of my good morals and values and that I was Christian and had a good soul. She even said that I should be more into Church so that I could be more of a leader in the Spirital sense. This soul mate stated that he never attended Church and was not Christian. He was a single, party-loving, womanizer and that is what she was attracted to. She wanted to just be one of his girlfriends because she knew he had many.

Also, she thought that he could take care of her if she needed to get away. Mind you that neither man ever gave her any money and they never even had a converation about providing financial support of any kind. My wife says that this was just a fantasy for her.

Also, my wife based on the emotional needs questionaire- her number one need is financial support.

So, I am confused. We have lots of money in the bank, large house, nice cars, great income. My wife says she uses people for things and that she is selfish. She says she was attracted to me originally because of my earning potential. He had kids and built assets together. However, when I left my job. She felt that the business was hers and hers alone and that I was not providing money. Instead of realizing that we were doing it together and that I quit a good job to help her, she ran to another man.

I feel she has used me our entire relationship. We were done having kids in 2002 and then I left the job and she now she felt she could not use me for anything and she was looking for the next guy.

What to do? I love her but I don't feel like she ever really loved me. Also, she seems to be very immature in her relationships. She states that she never talked with either man about what happened intimately/sexually between them. She says she never talked about how their relationship affected her marriage. She never asked them their motives or what they wanted. She seemed to bury her head in the sand about what was going on. In fact, she established no contact by saying that her husband would not allow her to talk any longer. I am shocked that that even worked. I have snooped/spied and yes it is true NC. That must mean she was way more emotinal invested than they were.

Confused. I have never really felt love from her. During, a transition period in our marriage, she has an affair. She progessed to sex very easily and did not have remorse. She said it was a non-event to her. Don't know what to do.


Hope_full

Me - BS - 35
Her - FWW - 35
3 children
12 year marriage
Affairs were during 2005
OM#1 Met/Kissed-2/05, EA 2/05-5/05
OM#2 First Night Stand 5/05,Kissing 7/05, EA 05/05-12/05
Emotional DD w both OM's - 7/05
Physical DD - 7/06(Intial) - 5/07 (Details)
NC OM#1 5/2005
NC OM#2 12/2005
Joined: Feb 2007
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Also, over the weekend, I started to think about the things that I have to do to be appreciated by my wife. I always sacrifice my time and energy to make her happy. If I do not, she does not understand. We do a lot with our children. Almost daily activities including sports, water parks, recreation, etc. Yesterday, I told my wife that some days I just need some down time and if she wanted to take the kids to the park and play, that is fine. The couseler actually told us that it seems like we over-stimulate our children. My wife says that she does get upset if I don't participate in EVERYTHING. She says that is one of the reasons she is attracted to me. I DJ'd at that comment. I just feel like I am expected to be a SUPER_HUSBAND and SUPER_FATHER. I am held to extremely high standards. On the other hand, she had VERY LOW standards for the OM. She says she did not expect much from him prior or after giving him SF. Again, my wife had a first night stand that developed into an emotional affair(seems like more on the side of my wife-OM just contended that they were friends). Why didn't he have to do much and yet I have to do EVERYTHING???? The things that she said attracted her were just based on POTENTIAL(money, affection, admiration). He never provided financially. He never gave her affection or admiration over time(maybe the first few hours they were together so he could get SF). After that, they were FRIENDS that talked about business BUT my wife was willing to destroy our relationship and marriage for potential or a fantasy.


Hope_full

Me - BS - 35
Her - FWW - 35
3 children
12 year marriage
Affairs were during 2005
OM#1 Met/Kissed-2/05, EA 2/05-5/05
OM#2 First Night Stand 5/05,Kissing 7/05, EA 05/05-12/05
Emotional DD w both OM's - 7/05
Physical DD - 7/06(Intial) - 5/07 (Details)
NC OM#1 5/2005
NC OM#2 12/2005
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 91
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I posted another users comments from a post from a different topic and I thought I needed to maybe explain my situation.

My wife feels she has done a good job addressing the underlying issues. She has taken responsibility and has done what she can to be transparent and such. The "underlying issues" are still hard to accept as an excuse.

So, what is the real problem with recovery??? Is it finding out why the first time or trusting that it will not happen again. I feel more comfortable that it will not happen again BUT I still have a great deal of obsessiveness over the why and how could she have let it happen.

Quote
I would be leery of any appearence of recovery until she addresses these underlying issues. Chalking it up to just a one time mistake or being drunk doesn't address this.


Yes, that is the problem. How do you really address the underlying issues? We have been through 3 counselors and a pastor and she comes up with the following and counselors somehow support her on this:

1) Stress - She was feeling stressed because she was working hard at our business. We had just expanded our business and both of us were putting in lots of hours. This was a business that we bought but she was the hands-on person for 5 years and then I left my job to assist. She expected to just delegate all responsibilities to me. This is not what she had agreed to. I had the business background and she had a difficult time organizing, putting in processes, hiring/firing, executive type things. We talked about her doing the observing and such and I was to run the "Business" part of it. This is what I did but we had two different styles. I delegated and could manage without being a micro-manager. She wanted complete control and wanted to know why I did not have my hands on everything. She got frustrated and probably lost respect. She was stressed and states she was looking for a way out or another man to run to.
2. Just Weak Around Men - She states she has always been weak around men. She says she only has had sex with a handful of men in her life but the first time was always prior to when she really wanted to. She always gave in to pressure because she wanted to be liked.
3. Natural Affair Pattern - All the hurtful stuff and actions that were said during the affair period and after discovery were just typical fog talk.
4. Likes Attention - She stated that she likes to be desired and wanted. She says she did not always feel this from me.
5. Never really been exposed to single life and she was very naive - She has been in a relationship since she was 14. She always met and started a realtionship right after the last. Most overlapped. She never had experienced in her adult life for a man to "fill her head up" so she could not believe this man like her as much as he acted.
6. Low Self -Esteem. Again. She said a man that she just met had never made her feel as good as he did. She says she heard stuff from me, her husband, but she thought that was because I was her husband. She could not believe a stranger would actually like, admire, and give the compliments that he did. She says that she just believed what he was saying and thought maybe he was meant to be. He even stated in the first few hours of interacting that she felt like his soul-mate and that stuck in her head. He was a single man in his mid 30's who had been out in the world and knew what to say to press a woman's buttons.

7.) Drinking/Flirting - Obvious

So, those are the reasons.

The responses or the "Why Things are Different":

1) She does not have the stress anymore because I took over the business completely. She has total respect because I run the whole show and numbers/money has never been better.
2) Weak Around Men - She says that she knew she was weak but her weakness never had negative results. She ended up married to a man she was "weak" around. Now she sees that her weakness can be a problem and she states she will never put herself in a position of vulnerability.
3) Natural Affair Pattern - The "fog"
4) Likes Attention – She states that she is now completely OK with just attention from me. She states that she does not need attention because she sees why men give attention. She says she know understands that a stranger giving her attention and flirting probably wants sex and is not some soulmate.
5) Never exposed to Single Life - Same as before – She sees what happens to single. This single man moved on with his life and just parties with a new girl. She, her husband and three kids are now left to pick up the pieces of the devastation.
6). Low Self Esteem – She states that she has taken steps to increase her self-esteem. She looks at herself differently and she believes that she is now a child of GOD. She believes that she now has a purpose which is to raise her children and to help others particular marriages not go through what we are going through. She is involved in multiple small group prayer groups with other women.
7) She states she will not drink if she is out somewhere without me.

So, I guess this is supposed to make me feel better. This is all supposed to explain why and explain why she will not repeat this in the future? She states that she was just mentally unstable because of the stress and that she feels she is a completely different person today. Again, it all sounds good. Why don’t I feel better about it?


Hope_full

Me - BS - 35
Her - FWW - 35
3 children
12 year marriage
Affairs were during 2005
OM#1 Met/Kissed-2/05, EA 2/05-5/05
OM#2 First Night Stand 5/05,Kissing 7/05, EA 05/05-12/05
Emotional DD w both OM's - 7/05
Physical DD - 7/06(Intial) - 5/07 (Details)
NC OM#1 5/2005
NC OM#2 12/2005
Joined: Feb 2007
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Bad dream last night! I had a dream of probably/maybe happened with my wife and OM. I walked in on a scene. Dreams are weird so I could not tell if it was really him and it was in a different location.

Anyway, I told her about the dream and she showed some sympathy. We talked about her boundaries. She told the story of how she talked to an old boyfriend a few times 4-5 years ago. She stated that she had the relationship and was confused about what to do. She said she saw him one day and he looked up her business number in the yellow pages. She said he called a few times. But, she says he left a message that stated something about "coming to his house for a massage". She said that she felt offended and that he was disrespecting her and her marriage. She says she left a message saying this and she never heard from this "friend" again. So, she says that was her boundary. Just flirty talk. So, I asked, when did your personal boundaries change. She said it was during the 2nd girls trip and that it must have been the alcohol. She says her first girls trip probably stripped away some of the boundaries because a man tried to kiss her there and the flirting did feel good. During the 2nd trip, everything moved so fast along with being intoxicated so that she says she did not have time to think. She then says she went into shock and confusion. She says she really had no one to talk to and the OM was beening adamant that they stay in contact.

Also, the first friend from years ago WAS during a time when are marriage was not that good. But, she had personal boundaries. In 2005, our marriage was the best it had ever been, yet she had sexual contact with a stranger(man she just met hours before). How does that happen?


Hope_full

Me - BS - 35
Her - FWW - 35
3 children
12 year marriage
Affairs were during 2005
OM#1 Met/Kissed-2/05, EA 2/05-5/05
OM#2 First Night Stand 5/05,Kissing 7/05, EA 05/05-12/05
Emotional DD w both OM's - 7/05
Physical DD - 7/06(Intial) - 5/07 (Details)
NC OM#1 5/2005
NC OM#2 12/2005
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,632
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Hope_Full

Quote
He also stated the alcohol does not make anyone do something they don't have thoughts about doing. My wife stated that drinking made her do something she did not want to do. He stated that she must have had feelings and thoughts and the alcohol allowed to act on them without feeling guilt/remorse/ect. My wife did not buy that but he said it has been proven. So, he wanted to focus on the marriage prior to the affair. He feels that there were some things that were not right prior that allowed my wife to want to pursue an extra-marital affair. Again, my wife says the affair just happened---twice in a few months after going 8 years without so much as an opposite sex friend.


Is this not exactly what I posted to you just days ago? Your MC in august was exactly right. Most WW's will not accept this, as they lose their very weak justification for the A, and look like losers.

MY Fww: Let's see, alcohol, marijuanna, zoloft, and menopause. It was a conspiracy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

However, based on what your MC said to you, He/she was exactly right. Go back and read it again.

And then you ask, "Why don't I feel better?"

Be******our WW will not accept that. She is still clinging to alcohol as her justification for an A.
It won't wash, and neither did my Fww's excuses wash.

I will continue to believe, as I do with my own W, that the answer lies in why did you abandon the boundaries you had? Until the answer to that becomes clear, you will have no clear cut answer to the "why".

All blessings,
Jerry

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Shinethrough,

You are right! My wife still has a difficult time accepting the decisions that she made. She still says that that person was not her. Again, she says she felt posssessed or maybe has split personaility and that person no longer lives. She says she will not put herself in that position for that person to come out if it is in her somewhere. She actually told this to the counselor.

Anyway, we had a blowup this morning because I told her that through all of this, I believe she is still very selfish. I told her that I still don't believe in 2 YEARS that she has told me the complete story of what happened from beginning to end. She says she has but they were just piecemealed to me. She wrote a letter back in April that was supposed to be the complete story and then a month later, she indicated that parts were lies.

I told her that my biggest need through all of this was for her to be honest. She says I have enough of the story and that it is all bad. She told me if I had sex with a woman for 2 minutes or if I had a long romantic night and had sex multiple times that it would all be the same to her. She says it is all bad and I already know that it was bad. I understand that but for me more than anything is the fact that she is not willing to do everything that it takes to fulfill a need(whether it really matters or not). She agreed that she is still very selfish and has a difficult time putting other person's needs before her own if they conflict. We made it this far because her desires fit mine the majority of the time until the A.

So, I told her that she lost the right to be selfish and that I have to have my needs met. I told her a selfish person does not deserve to be married. Marriage is about sacrifice. It is not even about the truth anymore. It is about her doing something for me that is difficult for her.

So, she left and said she had to think about being married because she does not think she can do what I am asking. I guess we are at a crossroads. I love her to death but I fear that if difficult situations occur in the future, she will do what is best for her and not for us because of her selfishness. She actually told me before she left that I should go out and find the type of woman that I want because she does not think she can be her. Deep. I am held on this long because we have 3 young children that will be devasted. Not sure where to turn.


Hope_full

Me - BS - 35
Her - FWW - 35
3 children
12 year marriage
Affairs were during 2005
OM#1 Met/Kissed-2/05, EA 2/05-5/05
OM#2 First Night Stand 5/05,Kissing 7/05, EA 05/05-12/05
Emotional DD w both OM's - 7/05
Physical DD - 7/06(Intial) - 5/07 (Details)
NC OM#1 5/2005
NC OM#2 12/2005
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,414
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Hope_Full;

I relate so much to your situation ... except luckily my FWW is doing her part of the "heavy lifting" of R. You seem to be handling your boundaries very well and I commend you for it ... you know what you will accept from your W and you are enforcing them. I think its imperative for BH's to remain strong.

I don't have any advice, since I think you're doing great, but wanted to say that I hope your W realizes what she is putting at risk when she is reflecting on her actions and current situation and starts meeting all of your needs.

Good Luck, man ... you've got guys in similar situations pulling for you.

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MyRevelation,

Thanks. Yes, very close situations. I actually read through your posts last night. I still can't understand how they woke up the next morning and did not run far, far away from the OM. I try to put myself in there situation and if I messed up that bad regardless of drugs/alcohol, I believe my first reaction would be panic/fear/remorse. I would have ran far away from the woman and definately would not have made any contact. It is like a man took advantage of a situation, clearly did not respect the woman and her marriage, and my wife liked him for that. That still makes me upset. She basically through her actions told the man that I enjoyed how you treated me last night. My wife said the OM was bold about wanting to have sex. Then she later said he was her "friend". Friends care about their friend, they don't seek to destroy their life and marriage.

Sorry, went off on a tangent. I envy you in that your wife actually seems to be doing whatever it takes. I know my recovery would have been 1000% better had my wife after she established NC just been honest about the details of the affair and not continue to lie 2 years out. She did great with the NC, but gets a big fat F for building trust and meeting my "Radical Honesty" need.


Hope_full

Me - BS - 35
Her - FWW - 35
3 children
12 year marriage
Affairs were during 2005
OM#1 Met/Kissed-2/05, EA 2/05-5/05
OM#2 First Night Stand 5/05,Kissing 7/05, EA 05/05-12/05
Emotional DD w both OM's - 7/05
Physical DD - 7/06(Intial) - 5/07 (Details)
NC OM#1 5/2005
NC OM#2 12/2005
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,414
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Quote
MyRevelation,

Thanks. Yes, very close situations. I actually read through your posts last night. I still can't understand how they woke up the next morning and did not run far, far away from the OM. I try to put myself in there situation and if I messed up that bad regardless of drugs/alcohol, I believe my first reaction would be panic/fear/remorse. I would have ran far away from the woman and definately would not have made any contact. It is like a man took advantage of a situation, clearly did not respect the woman and her marriage, and my wife liked him for that. That still makes me upset. She basically through her actions told the man that I enjoyed how you treated me last night.

Hope_Full;

Hopefully this will help ... I know it helped me ... but I was having the same haunting questions and our MC explained this to me during one of our individual sessions after he had the opportunity to fully review the events of that evening and to fully evaluate my FWW's personality.

He explained that prior to that night, my FWW was the classic "good girl" in every sense of the definition, which I would agree with. However she found herself in his hotel room (now I still have problems with this part), whether it was date rape drug induced, extreme intoxication, OM manipulation, poor boundaries, or any combination thereof or something else ... after she awoke and realized that she had indeed spent the night in a strangers hotel room, her mind forced her to develop some "feelings" for him, BECAUSE "good girls" didn't go to a man's hotel room unless they "cared" for the guy.

Now I admit that it took me a while to get my head around this concept, but after several frank conversations with my FWW, and after honest reflection, she admits that this scenario played into her mindset for her needing to re-establish contact with the OM (not just a ONS with no emotions), which then evolved quickly into an EA once they returned to the states after the vacation.

According to our MC, this behavior will even manifest itself with certain types of rape victims that blame themselves for being raped ... particularly victims of "Power Rapists". Also, you may want to google "power rape", its fascinating and very well may describe my FWW's OM, who I originally just considered a "player". Given how similar our stories are, it could even be a possibility for your situation, as it apparently occurs much more than one would expect, especially in "vacation" type settings.

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MyRev,

Thanks. I actually said this to my wife awhile back. That seemed logically and she thought about it and agreed. However, it seems it is always me that comes up with the logic and she just agrees. I still wonder if she really feels that or does it just seem logical and she rolls with it. I asked her was she in "shock" when she woke up the next day and she said "yes". I wanted to know why she continued to carry on even though she was no longer intoxicated/drugged. She just said she could not believe how she acted the previous night and that there must be something special about the man if she allowed him to take the relationship to being sexual. The OM continued the talk of "We must be soulmates" and she fed into that. Again, it seems like love was "created" because the man disrespected her marriage and treated her like just some $2 s__t. Or course, she took the blame and thought it was all her fault and did not blame him at all. She said he was just being a man. She said that she never talked about that night with the OM which seems crazy to me. Why would you not talk about something that was so extreme in a married person's world? Again, she did not want him to have to defend his actions because there really was not a defense. She did not want to face the fact that he did not have morals or values. She asked him if he ever attended church. He told her that he never goes and that he knows he probably would be a better person if he did. Even after this, she still wanted to remain in the relationship.

Recently, she has stated that he is trash and that what he did was wrong. She even said that when she hears things similiar, she thinks very negative of the man. Although, she always hated when she heard about affairs or men who purse married women. Somehow, she thought her situation was special or at least the OM was different even though he talked and hinted at sex all night.

The power rape articles out there are very interesting. It does seem to describe him and the fact that he behaved as if he did nothing wrong. In fact, after D-Day, my wife was very upset and sent a text message to him saying basically "I hope you rot in H___ for what you have done". He left a voicemail for her saying that nothing happened in that night and that they never had any intimate moments. My wife to this day will bring that up from time to time saying, "Maybe I made all of this up. He does not believe anything happened". To me, that is still defending him. He knows what happened. He just wanted to escape any and all responsibility so he will not have problems in his life. He is a coward but I can't believe my wife still believes stuff like this. He told her during a conversation after D-Day that he had to "protect his relationship" with his fioncee. So, that means he left the VM probably in front of the fioncee. Yet, she still gives him the benefit of the doubt.

Sorry, went off on a tangent again. Thanks for the feedback from your MC. That does make me feel somewhat better that her behavior may be a normal female reaction for a woman in that type of situation.

HF


Hope_full

Me - BS - 35
Her - FWW - 35
3 children
12 year marriage
Affairs were during 2005
OM#1 Met/Kissed-2/05, EA 2/05-5/05
OM#2 First Night Stand 5/05,Kissing 7/05, EA 05/05-12/05
Emotional DD w both OM's - 7/05
Physical DD - 7/06(Intial) - 5/07 (Details)
NC OM#1 5/2005
NC OM#2 12/2005
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Quote
He explained that prior to that night, my FWW was the classic "good girl" in every sense of the definition, which I would agree with. However she found herself in his hotel room (now I still have problems with this part), whether it was date rape drug induced, extreme intoxication, OM manipulation, poor boundaries, or any combination thereof or something else ... after she awoke and realized that she had indeed spent the night in a strangers hotel room, her mind forced her to develop some "feelings" for him, BECAUSE "good girls" didn't go to a man's hotel room unless they "cared" for the guy.


Interestin, MY, I'd never heard that before, but it does kinda make some sence. My was was a "good girl" of her life, 32 years of M, a good mother, a good W, who, together with me raised two beatiful sons. And she continued to work for her OM for about 3 mos. after the ONS. Perhaps she was trying to regain her "normalsy" in spite of what happened. She couldn't make sence of it!

Do you really think an EA can take place after a quick and unexpected PA??? I personally don't know the answer to this.. I'd always thought it had to be the other way around. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Hope Full, maybe we will all go on a journey together here? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
As far as honesty and all the details, try Joseph's Letter:

Quote
I know you are feeling the pain of guilt and confusion. I understand that you wish all this never happened and that you wish it would just go away. I can even believe that you truly love me and that your indiscretion hurts you emotionally much the same way it hurts me. I understand your apprehension to me discovering little by little, everything that led up to your indiscretion, everything that happened that night, and everything that happened afterwards. I understand. No one wants to have a mistake or misjudgment thrown in his or her face repeatedly. No one wants to be forced to "look" at the thing that caused all their pain over and over again. I can actually see, that through your eyes, you are viewing this whole thing as something that just needs to go away, something that is over, that he/she doesn't mean anything to you, so why is it such a big issue? I can understand you wondering why I torture myself with this continuously, and thinking, doesn't he/she know by now that I love him/her? I can see how you can feel this way and how frustrating it must be. But for the remainder of this letter I'm going to ask you to view my reality through my eyes.

"You were there. There is no detail left out from your point of view. Like a puzzle, you have all the pieces and you are able to reconstruct them and be able to understand the whole picture, the whole message, or the whole meaning. You know exactly what that picture is and what it means to you and if it can effect your life and whether or not it continues to stir your feelings. You have the pieces, the tools, and the knowledge. You can move through your life with 100% of the picture you compiled. If you have any doubts, then at least you're carrying all the information in your mind and you can use it to derive conclusions or answers to your doubts or question. You carry all the "STUFF" to figure out OUR reality. There isn't really any information, or pieces to the puzzle that you don't have.

"Now let's enter my reality. Let's both agree that this affects our lives equally. The outcome no matter what it is well affect us both. Our future and our present circumstances are every bit as important to me as it is to you. So, why then is it okay for me to be left in the dark? Do I not deserve to know as much about the night that nearly destroyed our relationship as you do? Just like you, I am also able to discern the meaning of certain particulars and innuendoes of that night and just like you, I deserve to be given the opportunity to understand what nearly brought our relationship down. To assume that I can move forward and accept everything at face value is unrealistic and unless we stop thinking unrealistically I doubt our lives well ever "feel" complete. You have given me a puzzle. It is a 1000 piece puzzle and 400 random pieces are missing. You expect me to assemble the puzzle without the benefit of looking at the picture on the box. You expect me to be able to discern what I am looking at and to appreciate it in the same context as you. You want me to be as comfortable with what I see in the picture as you are. When I ask if there was a tree in such and such area of the picture you tell me don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask whether there were any animals in my puzzle you say don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask if there was a lake in that big empty spot in my puzzle you say, what's the difference, it's not important. Then later when I'm expected to "understand" the picture in my puzzle you fail to understand my disorientation and confusion. You expect me to feel the same way about the picture as you do but deny me the same view as you. When I express this problem you feel compelled to admonish me for not understanding it, for not seeing it the way you see it. You wonder why I can't just accept whatever you chose to describe to me about the picture and then be able to feel the same way you feel about it.

"So, you want me to be okay with everything. You think you deserve to know and I deserve to wonder. You may honestly feel that the whole picture, everything that happened is insignificant because in your heart you know it was a mistake and wish it never happened. But how can I know that? Faith? Because you told me so? Would you have faith if the tables were turned? Don't you understand that I want to believe you completely? But how can I? I can never know what is truly in your mind and heart. I can only observe you actions, and what information I have acquired and slowly, over time rebuild my faith in your feelings. I truly wish it were easier.

"So, there it is, as best as I can put it. That is why I ask questions. That is where my need to know is derived from. And that is why it is unfair for you to think that we can effectively move forward and unfair for you to accuse me of dwelling on the past. My need to know stems from my desire to hold our world together. It doesn't come from jealousy, it doesn't come from spitefulness, and it doesn't come from a desire to make you suffer. It comes from the fact that I love you. Why else would I put myself through this? Wouldn't it be easier for me to walk away? Wouldn't it be easier to consider our relationship a bad mistake in my life and to move on to better horizons? Of course it would, but I can't and the reason I can't is because I love you and that reason in itself makes all the difference in the world."

(end of Joseph's Letter)


This may help.

All Blessings,
Jerry

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shinethrough,

Yes, I believe an EA can begin "after" a ONS or other brief physical experience, because I watched it. In our case, this was a complete stranger she met on vacation, so there was no possibility of any preexisting "feelings" ... and there was definately an EA that began after that meeting, complete with all of the fog-babble and a brief withdrawal after NC was instituted.

If you read up on "Power Rape" its actually one of the defining characteristics ... the "Power Rapist" has a "NEED" to be wanted/desired by the victim, so they will ask to buy the victim a drink, etc. afterwards to plant the seed that they really wanted and enjoyed what had happened. Date rape drugs are often used (and in our case were legal over the counter in Mexico) , or alcohol, etc. so the victim isn't sure exactly what happened or why, so they go along to try to sort through their feelings. In our case, he "insisted" on taking my FWW to breakfast at the hotel, where he expressed how much he wanted to stay in touch and that is where they exchanged contact info (email & cell phone).

The ONLY thing that saved me from Hope_Full's fate was that for some reason (and I still can't explain ... its kinda spooky), but I just "KNEW" something had happened even before she returned and I was NEVER the suspicious type. Call it esp, a premonition, my guardian angel ... who knows ... but I was "SURE" something had occurred and I was able to obtain the proof and stop the continuing EA on the 7th day after she returned home.

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Well, my wife went to dinner with one of her married friend. At least it was a married friend. Earlier today, she said she had to think about staying married. I am sure she and her friend will just do the husband bashing thing. I am sure she will tell her friend and her friend will tell her, "oh, he just needs to let it go and get over it... Everybody makes a mistakes, he needs to give you a chance and if he can't then you have no choice but to leave". This is the way her conversations with her friends tend to go.

BUT, the problem is, she never has told any of her friends the TRUTH. She is too embarrassed and private to tell them the whole truth so her friends think that I am still upset over, at the most, an emotional affair with a person she only met for one night and had a few phone calls over a few months. She will not tell them it was sexual on the first night and that they saw each other briefly in our home city. She will not tell them she refuses to be honest and that she has continued to lie for 2.5 years. She just tells them I keep asking questions and they feel I need to stop and move on. I keep asking questions because I keep finding new information or at least changed info. I mean, she will tell me things and then take it back a few weeks later and just say she made it up. This is hard. It almost feels like I have to just give it up if I want to stay in this marriage. I just have to accept that she is unwilling to meet my most important emotional need. And she will say herself that she is extremely selfish. Besides being selfish and her actions of 2 years ago, she other qualities are great. She maintains her physical appearance, is very attractive, a good mother, now she is into church/Bible/God, she has joined small prayer groups, and she is into family so it would be hard to just walk away. Yet, I feel like honesty and intergrity are important and she needs to show that she can do something for me that is difficult for her. That would show that she has true love and is not just afraid of change/the unknown.


Hope_full

Me - BS - 35
Her - FWW - 35
3 children
12 year marriage
Affairs were during 2005
OM#1 Met/Kissed-2/05, EA 2/05-5/05
OM#2 First Night Stand 5/05,Kissing 7/05, EA 05/05-12/05
Emotional DD w both OM's - 7/05
Physical DD - 7/06(Intial) - 5/07 (Details)
NC OM#1 5/2005
NC OM#2 12/2005
Joined: Jun 2007
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Hope_full,
If your wife is in to "church/Bible/God" Then one of the basic laws of Christianity is Not Lying!!!. Eather she is obeying what the bible says or not. Were is the compassion of a christian for a hurting husband. Jesus Had compassion for hurting people. The word "Christian" means to be Christ like. He would not say "get over it" He would say " I am here to help you get over it. I think that your wife wants you to get over it so that she wont have to deal with what you did. Yes God has forgives them but, it takes time to fix the damage form what was done. Hang in there

Just some thoughts

Blessings AF


BS
Dday 1/96
D 11/98
remarried to wonderful woman 9/2000
4 children DD27,DS26,DS22,DS18
Xw wife on her 4th affair,cheating on 3 husband
what a loser.
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Audioflyer,

Yes, we have talked about lying being a sin. I believe it is just very difficult for her. She has always been a person that did not seem to have a problem with lying. However, she was always very honest with me. In fact, for years, she would say that I probably am the only person she has been completely honest with including her family. I imagine that was because she really did not have anything to really be dishonest about. When this came about, she reverted to how she would handle most difficult situations, deceipt.

She knows this and she states that she is working on her weakness. She seems to have a great deal of remorse and guilt combined with her natural tendency for deceipt make it very difficult. Also, I believe she has a hard time facing the "truth". She rather believe it did not happen.

We went to couseling on Friday and she was told that she needs to fight to be honest regarding even this situation. It is about trust. I do wonder how she would handle any "difficult" situation. Would she lie if she made a bad financial decision? Would she lie if she did something that put our health at risk? Etc, etc. She seemed to understand that this is about trust and not about "wanting to know every single detail". After couseling, we went to lunch and she said she was prepared to tell me anything. Interestingly, I really did not want to know every detail. I just wanted to know that she was "willing". That's it.

Also, along with building trust - she ackowleged that she needs to show compassion and support. This marraige recovery stuff is difficult.

MrRevelation,

Thank you so much for sharing your situatuion and some of things that your couselor stated. It really helped on a lot of different pespectives.

One, that someone else experienced something similair. Quick PA or near PA on first night followed by EA on a "vacation trip". I shared that with my wife and she seemed to very much agree with what your counselor stated about forcing herself to have feelings and the need to keep in contact. In fact, my wife was so taken back about your story that she said that it had to be the "same guy". Everything seemed identical even the part about the man being adamant about staying in contact. My wife said the man was very insistant on HER calling him the day after she returned home. He kept making her promise that she would call.

Again, my wife was the classic "good girl" as well. She never really went out with girlfriends. She never went on girls trips. Prior to marriage, she always had long term boyfriends and never had a chance to date.
So again, thank you, for sharing so that we both see that sometimes people in certain situations react "human" and their actions although wrong are based on something more than just blatant evilness/thoughtlessness/etc. My wife states all the time and I reluctantly agree with her that she "put herself in the wrong situation". Her biggest mistake was choosing to allow and particpate in "harmless" flirting that escalated the realtionship. My wife thought she was in control and throughout the night, she lost "total control". The harmless flirting nearly destroyed a family, marriage, three children, numerous friend relationships and 8 years of a husband-wife friendship.


Hope_full

Me - BS - 35
Her - FWW - 35
3 children
12 year marriage
Affairs were during 2005
OM#1 Met/Kissed-2/05, EA 2/05-5/05
OM#2 First Night Stand 5/05,Kissing 7/05, EA 05/05-12/05
Emotional DD w both OM's - 7/05
Physical DD - 7/06(Intial) - 5/07 (Details)
NC OM#1 5/2005
NC OM#2 12/2005
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