My hopes are not up, my confidence in myself is. I have absolutely no expectations and will take the next steps very slowly and cautiously. I still have not made the conscious decision to save this M. I want to try, but I haven't gotten to the point where I can make an unemotional, solid decision if I want to try and recover with my WW. I want us to try and see what comes of it. Talks things out. Lay them on t he table and see where we stand.

I agree she is 100% string me along right now, and I know this. But the fact that she admitted that she doesn't want to lose me and wants to go to counseling is a major turn. Again, I am not getting my hopes up at all, I'm just stating that there is at least SOME movement on her part towards me.

No sex for a long time...I will promise that. There will be tests and more tests and tons of emotional healing before I venture down that road....

VS

MEDC - I am not "so open to taking her back". I actually started a thread awhile back stating "are we saps for wanting our WS's back?". I am a firm believer I am no one's second choice. I will not be running back to my WW with open arms. I am taking this cautiously and am not even sure this can be saved. I think MC is a good idea and would like to have us both lay our feelings on the line. We both have legitimate beefs about each other, though mine are far more severe (her A). A am willing to 'test the waters, if you will, for the woman I swore my life to under God. I think I owe myself at least that.

VS

okay... I think I misunderstood your intent. Good luck.

Yo, Vinnie!

If you want 2 participate in MC with your WW, then by all means do so.

BUT:

Call the Harleys! For yourself, first. But they will know how 2 engage your W at some point better than any vanilla MC will.

What time's your appointment? I ain't lettin' up.

-ol' 2long

But isn't this what we ALL end up doing if we recover our marriage? Isn't this what plan A, and even plan B, is all about? To set things up so that the affair relationship won't work out? To create the friction and stress between the affair partners by forcing them to face reality and completely meet each other's EN's when they're clearly not ready? And then we take the WS back...and nurse then through the withdrawl of the end of the affair...when we KNOW that we likely weren't their first choice. And then, after the NC has been in place a while, after the withdrawl begins to fade, and the work we've done in making those LB deposits in plan A and the withdrawl period kick in, they start to realize the truth...that they DID always love us?

Not sure I can see what's wrong with what you'd described, MEDC. It seems to me to be the way nearly all marriages that recover start out at right after the affair has ended.

Owl... that's not how I see it. If I am someones second choice... they are history...if they are only there because they got dumped and NOT because they had made the conscious decision to end the A and come back home...bye, bye. I quoted Harley in the past about this...
resentment doesn't even begin to describe the feeling of being the one chosen only after the "lover" dumps you.

Vince,
I cannot emphasize this enough...you are right now feeling the euphoria that comes when the WS agrees to return or work on the M. I know that you cannot control your feelings, but please keep a lid on your expectations. It is easy to believe that your WW is wanting to re-connect with you because she has somehow started to value you. It is also very possible that she wants to reconnect with you as a placeholder or because she is afraid of being alone.

Mrs. GF OM was not really available as a long term alternative. When she chose to remain with her family, there really was no other choice besides being alone. I believe NC is still in place but I do not really perceive motivation to work on our R. She is often too tired or too depressed to respond to my initiative and to date, almost 2.5 months of NC has never initiated any plan or discussions.

Once the euphoria passes you may very well find yourself in a place where you two allege to be committed to working things out, but you are still the only one doing the heavy lifting. Without that euphoria, you need something else to keep you going. You don;t have kids with Mrs. Vince so what will that be? You need a recovery plan every bit as much as you needed a plan A. Anyway, Mrs. Vince hasn't agreed to anything other than joint counseling so I am racing ahead. Just be careful with your own expectations, don't let them get ahead of where you are and prime you for disappointment.

Good luck, keep us posted.

MEDC- Well, from all the stories I've seen here, from all that I've been through in my own situation, from all that I've read about on other sites and in tons of various recovery books...it sure seems to be the way that the vast majority of marriages DO recover.

Bluntly...why give advice to anyone to do plan A/plan B then if you feel this way? Because when someone's in an affair, THEY'VE MADE THEIR CHOICE ALREADY TO BE WITH OP...going by your way, I don't think we'd have a third as many people on this website that we do right now. Plan A and plan B is all about breaking up the affair. I'm not sure that I follow your reasoning if you feel this way. Based on that logic, there should be FAR FAR fewer recovered/recovering folks around. The WS pretty much NEVER feels that remorse and regret immediately after the affair. It's only AFTER the affair ends, NC is in place, and withdrawl is over that they start to feel that. They rarely choose the BS until AFTER all that happens.

VS- Sorry for the minor TJ here. But I think its important for you to understand what recovery looks like from both angles. MEDC has put out his thoughts...I'll tell you point blank that I was NOT my wife's first choice at the time her affair ended. And I'll tell you just as clearly that even as recently as last week, she hugged me, pulled me close, and whispered "I'm so glad that things worked out for us like they did. I would have missed all of this...and this is where I'm supposed to be. Thank you for fighting for me, and taking me back even when I thought I didn't want to be here.".

We're coming up on 3 years into recovery now.

Owl... you are entitled to your opinion as I am mine. I get your point and obviously we have different takes on things.
But to answer your question regarding relationships in recovery...there are some that I would suggest are little more than a charade... that the BS was so damaged and the WS left with few options that they settled for one another. My thoughts go along with the study I posted here soem time back that stated that 75% of people that stayed in a M after an A said they were very unhappy with their decision 5 years down the road. I think some M's end because a BS is unable to forgive and others because they don't know how to move forward. The "don't know how's" is why I find myself still here.
And your statement about why give advice is not entirely accurate. I would say that MOST affairs are not about a person picking their A partner over their spouse... it is about entitlement and greed. But when push comes to shove... most people return to their marriages... and really had little to no intention of leaving. The thought of a man having an affair with his secretary comes to mind... he was never going to leave his wife... he just wanted his piece of cake.
If ever a spouse is given a clear choice between lover and spouse and they pick lover... well, end of game in my opinion. As Harley says... when there is more to get over, recovery is more difficult. JKSmiths thread comes to mind...

Owl... if you wish to continue this...let's take it elsewhere.

You want to make positive changes in yourself and in your M so that it will be your WW's first choice once she believes the changes are genuine and for good. One of the reasons that our wives started looking elsewhere was because we were failing our husbandly duties of meeting their ENs, most of the time through sheer ignorance. Once we found MB and understood the concepts, we BSs truly believe that we WILL be our WW's FIRST and ONLY choice. I am 99% sure that I can prevent my W from looking to get her needs met elsewhere and get my needs met at the same time if I stick with the program.

Just to clear this up...

I am not euphoric or overjoyed. I just feel more confident. Thats it. I am starting to feel like the 'old Vince'. I have NO expectations and am using the recent SMALL turn of events for ME. To better VINCE and get him on the right track. Nothing more. Once I have stabilized myself, I will put more effort into my M, currently, like every one has stated a page or two back, I need to get myself under control, and that is what I am trying to do.

Thanks for your posts.

VS

The only reason your wife went elsewhere was lack of integrity. Being dissatisfied int he M would give her something to complain about... not bump uglies with another over.

And if your view is right about if we meet en's... how would you explain a M that is touched by affair that saw the needs of the partner being met??? It happens. Also, if the premise is true... why so many marriage failures... even here on MB... even using the MB plan??? Jim... even your sitch... you list as in recovery.... but how are you in recovery with a wife that doesn't even let you have sexual relations with her (I think I am right about that). She gave this to the OM and now she won't even sleep with her H... sorry... but that would be "see ya" time for me. You have found solace in the crumbs thrown your way and I just don't see the point. Now maybe I am wrong... and maybe my pride would get in the way... but I know I would deserve more than that.
Just my 2 cents.

Vince... sorry for the topic change.. you seem to be in a good place and I hope things continue this way for you.

MEDC

My WW never slept with OM. It got to at least second base, but I don't believe any further. OM bragged to me about "fooling around" w/ my WW, but he said he was still trying to sleep with her, so I believe that's as far as it got. She admitted to 2nd base when she was really drunk, but swears it didn't go further. SF was a problem for us before the A (twice a month), and it was something I LB'ed about quite a bit pre-A. She/we have some issues in that department that still need to be counseled, but things are heading back in the right direction. Why don't you refer to Dr. Harley's Q&A about sexual aversion if you are that interested in my situation.

- End of threadjack.

Good Work Vince

"I told her I would watch the Dog, but I would like something in return"

Boo!

"I then said something that you all will probably grill me about, but frankly, don't care. I said "I know you still want me around and that you do not want to lose me. You still consider me your rock and want to make sure I don't go away. You do just enough to keep me hanging and when you feel like I may be giving up on you, you throw me a bone".

Nothing wrong with telling the truth. None of the advice you get here needs to be secret. That is a common misjudgement. If it has to be a sneaky trick then you're doing it wrong.

"we crank some more"

That stuff'll kill you!

I don't think you fared too badly but playing it day-to-day without a plan is not a great idea.

GC - When I say "I told her I would watch the Dog, but I would like something in return" I didn't put it exactly like that.

I told her I have no problem watching the Dog, as I love the little bugger and have a lot of time and money invested in him. But I said, "I'm not just going to be here for you to dump things on and take advantage of me. I want you to start respecting me if nothing else. You don't have to love me, come home, call me everyday, I just want a little respect and want you to try a little harder on us"

I don't think what I said was too bad. We were having very open and truthful conversations. yes, most of you will call them "lovebusters", but if she brings it ups and wants to talk about things that I have been wondering about for 4 months, then I am going to take an opportunity to talk to her about those things and be as polite and light as I can, no finger pointing, blame games or anything like that.

All in all I think i did very well. She hasn't called me since yesterday morning...well I take that back, she called me on lunch to tell me she was ok, because we got a ton of snow here and I know she would be driving home and back at lunch, so I emailed her and asked her to let me know she was ok, cause the roads were absolutely horrific and her drive was over an hour round trip. No call last night, no call or email today, but I'm not worried. I'm not calling her and dollars to donuts she calls me tonight. I will ask her about the weekend tonight, hopefully we are still good on t hat and I can make some more LB$ when I see her. At least on Tue. we got a lot of the heavy talk out of the way, so we can truly focus on each other, which should be great.

VS

My Plan:

It seems like everyone has either missed my plan or feel that I have no plan because I have failed miserable to implement it because I am so not in control right now.

So, my plan is to:

#1 Get Vince back to being Vince. Cool, confident, collective.
#2 Not be smothering, but talk and call her occasionally, but to make sure she is reciprocating. I will not call two days in a row for instance. I will wait for her to call or email if I placed the last call or tow. I want her to initiate contact as well. She has done this every time we have gone a day without talking, so I am confident she will continue to do so.
#3. When together, I am going to treat her as a woman I am interested in and treat everything like a new relationship. I will not forget what has been done, but I want her to fall in love with me all over again.
#4. I have no expectations. I am going to feed off how things are going to determine my next steps, like when you initially 'court' someone.
#5. No love busting.
#6. Go about my life and make sure that this is not my sole focus. It will be secondary. I will make other plans, go about my business, have a life, work out, eat right, etc. When we decide to be together, refer to #3 and #5.
#7. Take her up on her offer to go to counseling. I am going to let her initiate this though. I am not going to be the one doing the leg work. she brought it up and she said she wants to do it, so I am going to leave it to her. I will help suggest counselors, but I want her to be the one who books it and such so she has a vested interest and doesn't feel like she is being 'dragged along'
#8. If she doesn't call or breaks plans, its not the end of the world. Reverie to #6. I will have my own life and it won't matter too much. Sure I will be disappointed, but I won't be calling her and chasing her down asking why she hasn't called or why she won't see me.
#9. When engaging in conversation with her, I will be sure to talk to her about things that i know she has an interest in. I will also be sure to tell her the things that i have been doing. I want her to know that I have moved on. My biggest flaw thus far is letting her know that I have been basically at home crying for four months. She even said the other night when we were talking at dinner "I thought you couldn't leave the house and didn't want to be around anybody?", when I told her of some recent fun i was having.
#10. Make sure I keep #1-#9 in check at all times. I feel if I can be myself, the old Vince, with a few new and improved features (like meeting EN's, no LB, etc.) there is no way she can turn me down. At due time, I hope we both make the decision to try to save the marriage and then see if that is even possible, if she can come back and if I can come back.

Thanks for your advice and if you have anything to add, please do-

VS

Also, in case anyone missed it, the OM my wife was 'seeing' left her work, so that his HUGE, as we all know as long as there is contact, we can't fix this mess.

She hasn't seen him outside of work since Feb 23rd., So I am not sure she is going through withdrawal or not, but nonetheless, his last day is Friday, I wonder if she will go through withdrawal then?

Hmmm

VS