Hey Vince - For what it's worth, a couple of weeks ago I had my first call with Jennifer as well. Given my W's "state of mind", I picked up the phone that evening and spoke to Jennifer without inviting my W to participate, alhough my W knew the call was coming. After spending 10 min. on the phone with Jennifer explaining the situation, she had no desire to talk to my W at that point. Know why? Because she knew everything she was going to hear from my W, and that anything that jennifer told my W would fall on deaf ears.

Like you, I was hoping that the "expert" that I was shelling out the $185 for was going to "fix" my W right there on the spot...tell her she was wrong, pull out the magic words to make her see the obvious error of her ways and force her crying back into my arms apologizing. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way.

I'm going to take a stab at it here and tell you that Jennifer will probably tell you to work on YOUR PLAN, just as everyone on this thread has been doing. That's exactly what she told me to do, and that's what I've been doing. Is it working? I don't know. Am I feeling better about who I am in the whole drama and realizing that I have choices as well? Yep.

Take Care.

Vince wrote:
=============================================
I really do not car what any of you say - every situation is unique.
=============================================

Look at it like a salad, Vince. You can toss a thousand of them and they all appear a little bit different, yet the ingredients are all remarkably similar.

When taken as a whole, a salad is still just a salad. Add or remove ingredients, and it is still just a salad.

If you are religious, maybe you should read what Solomon had to say about the uniqueness of human actions.

Whether you are religious or not, we humans make the same mistakes over and over again, generation after generation. Maybe there are variations on a theme, but it is definitely a closed set.

God bless,
Gimble

Vince... you are right... they are not all the same... and there will need to be variables to fix every one of them. Not all affiars are as simple as some here would have you believe... they're just not. Not every affair is a result of unmet needs...and that if you fix those things... blah, blah, blah. It just isn't so. If it was, the Harley's success rate would be great to near perfect... it's not.

What this program does is offer you a proven method that will help in many situations... not all. See if it fits for you... if not, you may find another method works better for you and your wife. I would address those concerns with SH if you call him... they are valid and true. Right now though, absent anything else to do, following along closely to what is expected of you is your best bet. Someone accused you of being closed minded... yet it is your thoughts that I see to be the most open minded and the others that say this is the only way seem myopic to me.

All that being said, I would work with the Harley's until and if something that works better for you comes along.

MEDC

Well, I'm pretty sure I've heard dumber statements in my time here, maybe even said some dumber things my own self...

...but for the life of me, I can't remember them.

But since you don't care what I say, I don't need 2 keep saying anything, do I?

The good news is that you're going 2 be coaching with Jennifer. I'm sure she'll jerk a vir2al knot upside your haid for that mindset.

best of luck. My investment in this thread is now complete.

-ol' 2long

VS:


Since you don't , I won't. For whatever it is worth, I thought my own situation was unique. As time has gone on, I have discovered it wasn't. Affairs follow a script and so do betrayed spouses. There are them what gets help and uses that help to move forward in life and them what wants to be a victim. You picks your poison and takes your chances.

Bye.

Larry

Actually MEDC,

Harley is very specific about this. Affairs are NOT about unmet needs. Unmet needs affect the state of the marriage, but the decision to have an affair is purely based on the WS making a decision to do so.

The admonition to meet needs in plan A, is to show the WS that things can change and that the BS has taken inventory and decided to make changes. It is not about the unmet needs causing the affair.

God Bless,

JL

PS: To take this further, people here are getting many things confused. There can be no recovery or marriage building until the affair is over. So the "uniqueness" of the affair is NOT really part of the equation. Recovery, the rationalizations, the decisions to cross boundaries, NOW THERE IS A LOT OF COMMONALITY THERE.

agreed...I am quoting again just to highlight for some others.

Larry - Are you a journalist?/ You took a nice abstract of what I said to make it seem like I am an a-hole who doesn't care what anyone says.

My point was, that each one of our situations are different. Yes, there are tried and true techniques that have been proven to work, but I am a firm believer that depending on the sitch and WS, the techniques either have to be tweaked or thrown out all to gether. All WS's respond to things in different ways. I think some members here are very closed minded and don't take into account each individuals situation, or just can't possibly know, since this is an Internet forum and you do not really know the people involved. Its almost like some people here have a word document of things to cut and paste in each persons thread and refuse to think that there is any other way out of the mess or to fix it.

Sure, I believe that most of what people say on here to be accurate and just fantastic information, but I also believe that some of these techniques would just not work in certain people's situations. There just too many variables.

Some of you have really taken the statement "I don't care what you say, my situation is unique" and ran, which is fine. Yes, we all have a BS, a WS a M and an A. Some have kids, some WS have moved out, some have been married for 25+ years some 12+ months. Some people have money,s ome don't, some WS respond to LB$, some do not. Some BS are able to be an actor and implement a Plan A, some are not. I just feel that people need to spend more time reading posters situations, asking as many questions as they can instead of giving the same responses they give to EVERY poster who comes on here hurt and destroyed by infidelity. I know in the future when I am able to help others on this board, I will not have my word document of 'cookie cutter' responses to give every poster who says their S cheated on them. You really need to see what surrounds the poster and what state of mind they are in and exactly what happened to not only cause the A, but how the WS is acting and other variables involved in the couples relationship.

I don't mean to disrespect anyone, its just how I feel. And I feel my situation is unique, as is everyone's and we should try and treat them that way instead of saying "her are the 10 things you need to do" and half the time 3 or 4 of them I am incapable of doing because i don't have kids, my WS doesn't live with me anymore, etc.

God Bless,

VS

so Friday - I still hadn't heard from her since I talked to her at work Thursday, as she said she would call Thursday night and never did, so I broke down and called her Friday at work, as I needed to know what was going on for the weekend and if we still had plans. Well, it turned into a semi-LB conversation. I asked her why she didn't call last night (Thursday) and she said "I don't know, I just didn't feel like it". I was like "you didn't feel like talking to me?" She said no. So, that felt really good. I just moved on and ask how her day was and what she had planned for the weekend and she said nothing. I asked if we were still going to hangout Saturday night and she said 'yes', but didn't seem to thrilled about it. I then asked her more about what she did Thursday night, and I really got the feeling she was lying to me. She said her friend was over and I said that I didn't see her car in front, as I said I was going to stop by, but all the lights were off. she said 'oh, her car was in the back, why are you acting like this? Why do you think I'm lying". I quickly realized I was being an idiot and changed the subject. I asked her what she was doing for lunch and it turns out it was OM's going away party for lunch. So that just ticked me off more. So I told her to call me later and I have to go.

Well, I emailed her again later that day and told her I feel like we made some progress Tuesday night, but now it is all gone. I told her I thought we laid out a few ground rules and decided that we were both going to try a little harder and that she obviously isn't doing anything different. I told her I wanted her to respect me and to just try for us, for ourselves, for our loved ones. Yea, it was a dumb email, but I was very emotional. I feel like I am losing all the momentum I gained Tuesday night because she hadn't called me since Wed. morning, so I started to resort to old Vince. I asked her in the email to give me a call later that night as I would be out by her house if she wanted me to stop by and let me know if she really wanted to hangout tomorrow. I told her if she didn't it wasn't a big deal, but that I needed to know either way.

She responded with "I'm real busy baby, I love you, I'll see you tomorrow." A very generic response. Whatever.

So I got no call last night, feel I took some major steps back yesterday and just should not have called her at all. I was just so ticked off she didn't call me Thursday night like she said she would and felt the power and confidence I had gained Tuesday night, slipping away. It was almost like I was trying to prevent that from going away. The way she acted on the phone was very similar to other times when i felt we were reconnecting, then she goes to work, see him, and its like "Vince who". I guess the good thing is he is no officially not working there anymore and she wont see him at work anymore. I really have this sinking feeling she is still trying to see him, despite her words to the contrary of "I hate him, he's a piece of ******, he lied to me, i don't ever want to see his face again, etc".

So, I am kinda looking forward to tonight, but am almost anticipating that phone call f rom her saying that she cant hangout or doesn't want to and we can tomorrow. I need to handle that convo well.

Thing is, she made it pretty clear she doesn't like talking to me or hanging out with me anymore cause its not fun, Tuesday night. That has me kinda concerned. Yea, its because she doesn't;t want to have to face me and what she has done. But she is going to want me to watch he dog for her for a week, so she can go and have fun and do whatever she wants once again. I just have a hard time with the all take and no give scenario.......

VS

I think many read what you said about not caring what any of us has to say...in that context and not related to your opinion that your situation is unique. I think most have been following your thread and have been advising according to and in response to what you yourself has written...not cookie cutter.



When you write things like that it shows that you have not been listening to the sage advice you've been given and you prefer winging it...we can objectively see the errors that you keep making due to the fact that your WS is not unique as compared to the average WS...we've seen it thousands of times before.

As a BS...you really need to be doing a better plan A. What you wrote in that email was very far from a good plan A. I hope Jennifer can get through to you because you don't seem to be all that receptive to following the free advice you've gotten from some of the best here.

As a woman who has been in a marriage breaking up, that seems needy to me.




You should have said 'sorry I wasn't around last night'. It would have sounded as if you weren't sitting around waiting for her to call.

That's because YOU are not having fun, and when this happens, YOU are not fun. It sounds as if there are a lot of LBs going on. You seem to be able to avoid those for short periods of time, but you get right back to it.

I wish you luck.

I have by no means said I am winging it. I do listen to the advice her. Unfortunately, I have a hard time implementing it. I am not perfect and have never been in this situation before, so I apologize that I can not keep myself in 100% control and do everything perfect. I just do not see how it is possible. I am so emotional and hurt and confused, that it is hard to stick to the plan 100%. I am not winging it, I have an appt. with the Harley's Tue night, and as I have said from day one, I know what to do, but actually doing it is another thing. Sometime I am just so upset and angry and confused that I unfortunately deviate from my plan and the advice that so many wonderful members here have given me.

Believe me when I say I try my hardest, but sometime the heart is stronger than the mind, especially in my case.

VS

Its funny that people think I am not listening and just basically saying "nah, I won't do what others say, event hough i know they a re right." Sometimes, I just can not control what I am feeling and the reactions that occur subsequently. Everyday I battle myself to stay in control and try to implement my plan to see if I can have a chance back with my WW. I know that by not sticking to my plan and the advice that people have given me hurts my chances, even as I am doing the actions, I just haven't mastered the action of putting my emotions aside and acting like nothing happened and treat my WW with respect after what she has done to me. I need to figure out how to do that.

Words and posts on a message board are one thing...real life and implementing those words and advice is a whole nother story!

So please, do not say I am not listening, cause I am. Say I am not doing, cause I'm not. I want to, I try to, but its really hard.

VS

Maybe you need to write down a script of things that you can and can't say to your wife. Or put positive notes up on your mirror to encourage you to stay the course. You need to learn self control about those emails and phone calls. I know it is hard. I wrote my husband copious letters for a while...I also wrote my thoughts out and gave them to OW for a while. I made my share of mistakes....I didn't have MB at that time. In hindsight I can see how I would have benefited by a plan.

My marriage recovered...but it wasn't in my timing...it took much longer than even 2 yrs...certainly not months...I went through a few false recoveries.

You might benefit from reading Dr. James Harley's 'Love Must Be Tough'. I hope you have read Harley's SAA.

Vince,

You are just making excuses for yourself. Failure is NOT an option. As long as you excuse yourself for screwing up plan A, you are going to continue to do so. You are your own worst enemy. Most of us here have been through the same thing you have. We haven't been able to stick to the plan 100% either, we are all human. However, I have stuck to the plan at least 80%, and you have been below 60%, a failing grade. If you are failing, then you need to focus more and work harder. No one said this would be easy. Saving a M by yourself after your spouse has committed adultery is a HUGE burden. You just can't half *ss it. If you aren't doing well enough, there are a host of things that you can do to help yourself like IC, anti-depressants (if you already have them, you can ask your doctor to up the dose), self-help books, and keeping yourself busy. Focus, Vince. You are going to have to go through 6-12 more months of a MUCH BETTER plan A if you want to save your M. The plan A that you are implementing will either fail or at the very least make recovery take MUCH longer. You NEED to be mentally tougher. Your W NEEDS you to be the strong one. Good luck, you're going to need it.

Hi Trix- Yea, that is a great idea, cause obviously I am not taking action on the great advice I have gotten here. I want to. I try to. But sometimes my heart and emotions are just too strong for the pee brain of mine.

To all those who say I am not listening - I have printed out this thread and highlighted ALL the advice that I have gotten. Good or bad. I have analyzed it. I have read and re-read it. I am trying to program it into my brain so that I can react and create situations that will make my WW attracted to me and see the error in her ways, without me having to point them out.

JMWC- I'm not sure if your good luck comment is a cut at me or not, but you are right, i will need it, as does everyone in this horrible situation. I do see an IC and I am on anti-deps. I am not depressed really. I'm very sad and upset about my sitch and what has happened to me, but I am not sad about my life and considering suicide or anything like that. I just want my wife back so badly, but I am realizing it most likely won't happen, and if it does, it will never be the same - I know this. I have ordered SAA and am eagerly waiting its arrival. I know "what took you so long?". Well, I don't know. Maybe I thought I could do this alone without any help, but its obviously not the case. So I have gotten the book and have an appt with Jennifer Harley Tuesday night, so I am taking the right steps, I just need to get my head out of my [censored].

As for an update on my sitch. My WW called this am as we have dinner plans for tonight. she was going to bring the dog over and most likely stay the night. I was really looking forward to this. Well, I called her back, as I try not to answer the phone every time she calls, so it seems like I actually have a life (which I am working on getting), and she tells me her PARENTS are in town, as they live 6 hours away. Little background on that - before all this happened (the "A"), her parents and family were really the most important things in her life. She spoke with her mother daily and they had an absolutely wonderful relationship and would for hours about everything. Well, as soon as my wife told me she 'may have feelings for another man', her parents came up the weekend after to try and get their daughter under control. The stayed here for two days and spoke with her for hours about what she was doing and how she could do this and she needed to stay with me and she was about to ruin her life and provided her a 'road map' for getting herself out of the EA and recommitting to her husband. Fast forward to today, my WW no longer calls her mother daily, her parents are just so ashamed of WW and have been trying, over the phone and email, to get their daughter to realize what she is doing and how she is ruining so many lives. I had been preaching to my inlaws for months that this was not enough and that they needed to come up up - so SURPRISE! here they are.

So there go my plans with my WW. I have no idea what affect this will have on everything, but I imagine it will not help much. My WW is acting like a 16 year old teenager, and will almost do the opposite whatever her parents say. Her parents desperately want her to save her marriage as they know who she was before she met me and now who she has become without me. They know that I am a good husband, a good provide and an absolutely positive, stabilizing; influence on WW's life. I just wish they would have fought a little harder, but I guess, no one can really break up an A, it has to die by itself - although you can influence its death by all the 'rules of exposing' or whatever.

Anyway, wow, I got off on a tangent there...we talk and she told me that I could come to dinner with them, but I feel it is better that the 3 of them talk without me there, so whatever needs to be said, can be said. We talked some more and I asked her what she did last night, which was hanging out with her friends and a bunch of guys til 3am. I told her that i don't feel this is acceptable behavior which led to a convo about how I believe she is not putting on a front or telling anybody that she is off-limits and that she is married. she says she has 'told everyone the situation'. I said, she has not set the expectation to men that she is off limits, to which she asked "how the f---- to you know what i do when I'm out". Well, she doesn't know that I have seen a few emails from both her friends and potential OM that clearly state that she is 'free for the taking' and not married. She says she tells everyone that she is separated. I said that she either needs to start acting married or get a divorce. its simple. If you want to flirt with guys and tell people you are not off limits and stay out with guys til 3am, then by all means go ahead, but NOT while you are married.

So needless to say the convo was a major LB, but at this point, I am not going to allow my wife to disrespect my like this. Sorry, my WW. She needs to know that if she wants that life, she can have it, but not on my watch. I refuse to be walked all over. Yes, I have been for 4 months, but I am trying to change that. So, another conversation where I just couldn't keep it together. I'm sure most of you will just kick me some more about how I don't listen and I am an idiot, but oh well. Like I said, my little pea brain just gets dominated by my heart...and yes, that may or will ultimately cost me my marriage. But I just can not take my WW acting like she is 'free game' and then let her string me along. That has been done long enough I think.

So it goes...

VS

VS,

You said among other things
This is the same weak willed, weak kneed, spineless talk that a WS goes through as they justify their affair.

"Yes, I know what the right thing to do is, but...I'm in love."

I sure hope you don't waste your money by talking to the Harley's and then justifying not doing as they suggest with the same...

JL

Vince:

Many of the BS's on MB have gone thru the needy/clingy stage where we can't control our emotions...I know I certainly did. Like you, I also was trying to force the R talk quite often and I kept hoping to get something back from my FWW during the time when she was moving 6 hours away. IT DOESN'T WORK. It has been 4 months of this for you...and it hasn't worked yet. NOW is the time to get control of yourself, and make the positive changes in yourself happen.


You need to truly UNDERSTAND that Plan A is about YOU and YOUR personal growth...not about MAKING you WW do something for you like move home, commit to M, or even treat you with respect. In Plan A, you GROW, you CHANGE, you learn not to LB, and most of all, you RESPECT YOURSELF...enough for the both of you.

I want you to think very carefully about my next question:



If you can't control yourself now, when your M is on the line and you are fighting for it, WHAT MAKES YOU BELIEVE (OR YOUR WW FOR THAT MATTER) THAT YOU WILL TRULY CHANGE AND CONTINUE THOSE CHANGES IF YOUR WW COMES BACK TO THE M, PARTICULARLY WHEN THINGS CALM DOWN AGAIN? (NO LB'S. MEETING EN'S, ETC.)



BTW, after i realized that I neede to wake up and make changes happen, I decided that I would build a wall in my mind to separate all the painful feelings from my thoughts. I woke up and decided to be excited about life again, and to truly ACCEPT whatever outcome...without fear. The very same day, my FWW did a complete 180...she changed her mind to stay, and re-commit to the M.

Good Luck.

VS,

I understand where you're coming from. But I swear to you that you will kick yourself later for not listening to the people on this board and following the advice.

Do the 180. It's all spelled out. Don't call her. Don't talk of the relationship.

It's really hard.

I really believe you need to separate yourself or move on to plan B and go dark. You need this to become strong again. She has shown that she does value you in some way, but you keep giving her reasons to not like you.

You know how a WS is lying? They are talking.

So if she says she'll come see you, don't believe it. If she says she misses you, etc, don't believe it.

My ex actually told me she sent me a package while I was deployed. I went in to the mail room every day for 3 weeks for that package. I kept telling her it hadn't come in yet and I figured it either got lost or it was just taking a while because I was on the other side of the world. She kept telling me she sent it.

You know what? She never sent it. So here I was, deployed, with no clue she was a WS, and waiting anxiously for a package from home.

Hearing the truth really hurt.

I'm telling you you have to quit believing anything she says.

My ex called me "hon" for 4 months after our D. This is after she cheated and was dating others. I heard "I love you" every day while I was deployed and would talk to her on the phone. She would say this, and then go on her dates.

She doesn't feel sorry for any of this nor does she feel she did wrong. She decided that the marriage was over and that's how she justifies her behavior. In her mind, it was over, it just wasn't official and I had no clue it was over.

This is the kind of cold, calculating person you're up against. You need to understand, you wife is dead. She is dead and you have to accept it.

I finally reached some level of peace recently when it dawned on me that no amount of crying, pleading, rationalizing, anger, or guilt trips were ever going to change her mind.

Please follow the advice you've been given. Don't call your W. If she makes plans with you, make counter plans expecting her to cancel. Expect it. She probably tells you to shut up and leave her alone for a few hours.

My ex would do that too. She said she was going to cancel her web page. Well, she set up secret ones on the side.

You are so emotionally wrecked you can't think clearly, and we've all been there. I don't know what you need to do to find a way to let your brain override your heart, but you will lose your wife unless you do.

My ex WANTED to see me become a man and not a groveling, crying, angry, weeping, wimp. She said so many times and I wasn't listening.

Please, please, please start the 180. Read it, print it out and read it before you interact with her. Excuse yourself when you're with her and go in the bathroom and read it again.

Trust me. It works and it will be what saves your marriage and brings her back.

Listen, Vince. Your WW is not going to act like she is married for a LONG time. My W still doesn't wear her rings. If you want her to act like she's married, and if she doesn't then you want a D, then D her. She's not going to act married until she realizes that she still WANTS to be married to you. Right now, she probably won't have another affair based on getting burned by the OM. She's probably got her guard up against ALL men now, including you. You have to pay for the sins of her and OM. Not fair, but if you want to save your M (like you say you do), you are just going to have to suck it up. Whatever happened to no R/M talk? You say you are listening and taking advice, but avoiding R/M talk right now is your NUMBER ONE PRIORITY, and you can't even do that. You need to attract her back to the M, and being needy and clingy does the opposite. Listen to me, Vince. I have NO DOUBT that you and your WW will make it through this IF YOU LISTEN TO OUR ADVICE. She is a prime candidate to come home. Her A is over, and she's going through withdrawal. Right now she wants you to fill the void she has created in her life, but she doesn't want to have to deal right now with the consequences she has created in her life. She wants you to fill the void. If you can't without getting overly needy and talk about R/M, she'll dull the pain by going out and getting drunk. She needs you right now, and she needs you to be strong. Be there for her, Vince.