No problem. This place was a lifeline for me during my W's A.


You can't make her write a NC letter. It is actually an LB to demand a letter. My WW never wrote a letter. I would suggest it to her, but then drop it if she says no. As for the sex pictures, just let it go. You don't want her going back there or communicating with him again. If they get out, that's your WW's fault and she'll have to deal with it. If you do catch them again, I wouldn't threaten D. You should never threaten something that you don't want to do. Just make consequences for her actions. If she continues to visit him, take back her car, cancel her credit cards, just leave enough in your joint account to cover household costs, or the last measure would be to pack her stuff in a suitcase and leave it in the driveway. This will get her attention, but you will show to her that you want to save the M. As you can tell by my profile, my WW broke NC several times before it finally stuck. WWs are ADDICTS! They cannot control their behavior until they get through withdrawal. Just make the consequences of breaking NC stiff enough that they deter her from doing so.


Good, this will be awkward for several months after NC is established but will get better with time. Keep up the good work. Stay focused on the goal.


How often does she go out? She shouldn't go out more than once a week. If it is, that is probably a sign that you aren't spending enough time together and that is how she is disconnecting from you. What do her friends think? I always make a point to get to know my W's friends to get a read on them, so I know what kind of influence they are. How would she meet up w/ OM while you are at work? Doesn't she watch the kids? You still need to try and develop a foolproof way of catching contact including monitoring phone calls, emails, etc.


Yes, they work well. Several people on the forum have used them to catch their WSs cheating. Don't put it where it can be easily found. You can hide it under the spare tire in the trunk or somewhere else where she won't find it. Don't let her know your source though. Even if she is on to you and parks far away, you can tell whether or not she is actually at the store when she says she is. Your WW is an addict. If she was an alcoholic, you would do everything in your power to cut off access to booze, the same is true with OM.


I know how hard it is. My W and I are recovering, but we still haven't had SF for NINE MONTHS! I'm about to go crazy. But I try and keep my eye on the prize. Yes, I may not be getting SF right now, but with a little more effort, hopefully in a few months I'll be getting wonderful and fulfilling SF all the time.

Good advice Jim about watching what I threaten, and the pictures. If they get out, I would actually be glad - it would show her what kind of a sleaze-ball this guy really was and that he took advantage of her. I want her to "discover" this guy is bad news. But that's just wishful thinking.

About those consequences - if you take away their car what do they do, stay at the house all day? I'd have to pick up the kids after school, take them places, etc. That would be so funny - first take it away for a week, then longer, etc. Oh those things would get her for sure. I could take over the finances, etc.

So how do you differentiate between a LB and consequences? Wouldn't leaving her things in a suitcase in the driveway be a LB? Hilarious, but a LB? If I did that, do I still let her come inside and unpack it, or force her to stay in a hotel? Can you really kick someone out of their house? I wouldn't want her to start filing legal motions against me.

I admire you for holding out so long - that seems unbearable to me. I'm glad things are getting better for you though. I hope I'm in your shoes someday.

Good post, Jim, as usual. One thing to add...when she points out things about you that were negatives in your marriage...uh huh is not enough. If it's fogspeak, an untruth, then uh huh is fine. But if she has a valid point...ie, you spent too much time fishing, golfing, working, hanging with buds, whatever, that's the time to own up to your own shortcomings, and apologize. Follow that up with, "I realize now that took time we should have been spending together, and I am changing that as we speak. In fact I would love to spend more time with you...is there anything YOU'D like to do?" If she says "no", then you counter with "then how would you like to do____________?"

Engage her in conversation as much as possible. Women have a need to share their thoughts, and, an even bigger need to have their thoughts "count", or be validated in some way. They want to feel important in your eyes.

Make her feel that way, and work on Harley's 15 hours a week, without being demanding.

After all the pain, the setbacks and dissappointments, it is time not to worry about her thoughts and be reactive to them. It is time to grab the reins, focus on you and your well being, and follow the MB program tirelessly, without expectations. It is no one thing you do...it is the cumulative effect of ALL you do.

Keep your eye on the prize!
SD

Thanks SD. Most things she says is Fogtak, but I do usually acknowledge valid things she says, though sometimes it's hard to say I messed up something when I want to say "Yeah, I bet OM would do that better, why don't you go have some more 5ex with him.." I often feel that way though because she's still seeing this guy - I think all that resentment and defensiveness would melt away if she stopped seeing him.

I agree that conversation is a big EM I need to work on filling. It's hard to converse though, because I'm always worried about saying something she's not gonna like, or that she's going to disagree with - I'm not a good debater. I'll have to focus on that.

The consequences I am talking about are not supporting her affair. If she wants to cheat on you, then you will no longer support the means of her affair. If she uses the new Audi that YOU paid for to drive over and sleep with OM, then you turn in the car and let her buy her own car with her own money that she earned. If she uses a cell phone that you pay for to talk to OM, turn it off. If she goes out and sees OM on Thursdays while you watch the kids, stay at work late on Thursday and make her watch the kids. If she still defies you and sees OM, tell her that you aren't paying the mortgage on a house for her while she sees OM, so she can find somewhere else to live. A lawyer wouldn't recommend locking out your W, but it is perfectly legal. She could get a court injunction to let her back in and it would look bad in a divorce proceeding, but I doubt it will come to that. Your WW does NOT want to leave the safety and security of your M, she just wants to have an open M. Let her know that isn't an option. You have called her bluff. All the time tell her that you want your M to work, but you are not willing to have a third party in the M, and you will not support her involvement with a third party. She'll be FURIOUS, but she'll be less likely to carry on her affair. Once the affair is over and the withdrawal is over, you WILL have your chance to work on the M.

Don't debate. Just get her started and fill in enough fluff to keep her going so that she feels like you are listening. Repeat back little snippets from what she is saying to make her know that you are listening. Don't disagree with her, just let her know that you know what she is feeling.

Jim, I read part of your story, lots of similarities to my wife. Wife wants to continue the affair, is not satisfied with the marriage, says you have to get over it, etc. Surprising how similar these situations can be even though the individual people involved may be quite different.

Your counselor encouraged a separation - mine did too, though I didn't want to do that and didn't mainly because of my discussion on this board. If I hadn't spoken with everyone here I probably would have gone thru with it. Our counselor disagreed with the exposure strategy because she said it actually took away a reason for my wife to stay, which was to not upset her parents, but now that they knew, my wife might feel like there's nothing left to lose by leaving me. But my wife told me more recently after the exposure that she now can't leave me because her parents would know it's because she had the affair and killed the marriage, and that it wasn't because of some other "innocent" marital issues. But the counselor made me really regret the exposure decision, that I had betrayed my wife, similar to how she betrayed me. I defended my decision, but that discussion did give me some serious doubts about what i'd done. And coupled with my wife's rants about how I can't handle my own problems, have to get "allies" to do my work for me, hiding behind women's skirts, etc. added to my buyer's remorse. But now I don't regret it, I see it as something I had to do to try to save my marriage, and like everyone said, what did I have to lose? I still wish her mother would have done a better job at handling it - she buckled and just cries all the time now when she calls.

It's such a pride-swallowing thing to work so hard to please and try to keep someone who's betraying you so callously. Everyone I tell my story to just can't believe I'm trying so hard to save something that can't be saved, or wondering why I'm doing it, that I deserve better, and that based on what I've told them that she's said, that there's no hope, that she doesn't love me, never did, and that that can't change.

hopefuldad...

That is the beauty of the MB program. It promotes BS's to own up to their part in allowing a marriage to become vulnerable. It promotes doing a lot of things that ARE counterintuitive, but forces us to do an immense amount of introspection, and set our resolve in ways we've never done before. The payoff is a huge amount of self-growth.

Regardless how the marriage turns out, when a BS follows the program, they will be a better husband should the marriage be saved, and have the tools at hand to make the marriage better than it ever was. If the marriage still fails, the BS has so much personal growth to carry forward into whatever life brings. Although that's not the outcome we are looking for, it is a tremendous by-product of following the MB program.

The WS's, on the other hand, do not have such a plan, and their lives can stay really ugly until they come to terms with what they've done, and address those issues. Those that don't seek professional counseling remain without a plan, and they can flounder for years.

Pride swallowing is the perfect term. Humility is a great teacher. You will benefit from this experience, no matter what. It's just hard to see when you are in the quagmire. You WILL emerge a much better, stronger, wiser individual for having walked this path you never chose.

There is a point to doing all the suffering to try to save your marriage. You will emerge as a winner, regardless of how your marriage turns out.

From the outside looking in, I'd say you have as good a chance as anyone here at being successful in saving your marriage. Keep the faith!

SD

Wow.

I could not have put it better - this is EXACTLY how I feel right now.

Currently, of the several billion people on this planet, I am the ONLY one who wants to save our marriage. My support group says I should just leave her, I deserve better, you tried enough, give up already, etc.

Her side says she should leave me because she is not happy.

It is lonely hopefuldad - I am there with you.

Nowwhat74

Awesome feedback SD.

Nowwhat, there's one other person who wants your marriage to succeed, your son!

For me it's the kids that are keeping me in this. They don't deserve to be hurt by our problems. I'm pretty sure I would have left if there were no kids. BUT, I'm not going to just play along and have a pretend marriage for the kids. I believe that's worse than the parents splitting up and remarrying happily, even if the parents are good actors. I'm determined to have a real marriage, one based on love & happiness, with each of us wanting to stay in it for each other, not out of necessity, not just for the kids, but for each other.

I so envy the "lucky" ones whose WS's have agreed to no contact and want to work on the marriage. To me that decision gets you halfway there. Without that decision, nothing can proceed.

Hopeful...

Something that might help you...take a look at some of the newbies that are arriving on Just Found Out, and see if you can provide some assistance to them.

I found that by regurgitating what I was learning here to the new arrivals, it solidified what I needed to learn to be successful. You can also share bits of your story in doing so, and the "release" you get by "talking" to the newbies may also be a plus for you.

My "story" was never posted "up front". I did reflect back on parts of it, when asked, but I learned mostly from reading the posts of others, then passing it on in my own words. In doing so, I learned the system very well, and was able to execute it better as I passed what I'd learned along. Like you, I didn't have an immediate support group who understood what I was going through.

This "outlet" made a huge difference in my progress and my success with the program.

Just a thought...take it or leave it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

SD

I think my wife's affair has just gone deeper underground. I think she's still in contact with OM at least by email, and I suspect she saw him a couple days ago. I also suspect she went on a weekend overnight trip with him a few weeks ago when she said she went to the spa, I saw no charges or payments for any spa (that would have been expensive too, easy to find). My wife and I exchanged a few emails talking about infidelity this week, and the links she sent me were ones that either talked about marriage problems, or that said affairs were human nature (that about everybody has them) (and that the you should try to keep it secret), and one about some personality disorder she's trying to label me with to explain my unpredictable actions (the surprise exposure, sleeping in a hotel a couple times, etc). I basically believe her thinking and attitude has not changed at all since D-day, and she still blames me for the ramifications of the exposure, etc.

So I think plan B is going to be necessary. My biggest concern is, though, that if I go aggressive and try to kick her out of the house and keep the kids in the house, our marriage will never survive that, she would never "forgive" me for that or understand why. I would be worried she'd just file for D and try to take the kids. I wonder if I should just file for D now, whether filing first give you an advantage. And I don't know if I should do everything thru a lawyer, or if we should talk it out and have an "amicable" divorce, so that the kids see us as still friends, etc.

Ok, now the wishy-washy stuff:
It's really against my nature to go aggressive like this, it would be really hard for me. I would be telling her she's a bad mother, so bad that she couldn't handle the kids, but I don't really feel that way. She's having the affair and hurting me, but she loves the kids and does a lot of things for and with them, and they love her. She's better at disciplining them than me - they run circles around me! Yes, she's hurting them by hurting our family with the affair, but that's so hard to measure, at least right now. But I believe it's best for the kids in the long run for us not to be married than to have a loveless marriage and set a bad example of what marriage should be like. But my wife either doesn't believe this or believes it can be managed. And in a way I feel like I'd be giving it all up, ending any chances of recovery.

Thanks for any suggestions.

call the Harleys for REAL advice

your situation is quickly reaching critical mass

I'm serious

To schedule an appointment with Steve Harley, you may use one of two options:

Call toll-free 1 (888) 639-1639
or
e-mail (counsel@marriagebuilders.com)

If you decide on Plan B, be sure that you are prepared for her to become insensed and do everything she can to break it. I would advise seeking out counsel and trying to get an LSA. Don't file for D unless you MUST for financial purposes, or, of course, unless you want a D. That is disastrous if you are wanting to save your M, and shouldn't be considered if you can settle finances without it.

You cannot control what your WW will do; she may well likely file for D if you force her out, but that is not for you to decide FOR HER.

About the kids, don't make excuses for not being able to discipline them properly; take Plan B time to learn HOW to. There are many publications and online assistance of what to and what not to do. When the children experience the Plan B, they will need guidance FROM YOU, so prepare to seek help for them, and yourself. Don't let your children bully you at this time, either. Teach them right from wrong and respect.

I would prepare for Plan B. If you can get advise from the Harleys, do it. Get the finances together...

I'd call two people - a lawyer and Steven Harley. I would consult with Steven Harley for a plan on how to pressure your W to end her affair, and I'd consult a lawyer to help you cut your W off and subject her to the consequences of her actions as much as you can without jeopardizing custody of your children. Things I would do include:

1) Cut her off financially (as much as legally possible)
2) Trade her car back in.
3) Make her support herself financially.
4) Kick her out of the house (if you can).
5) Monitor her phone calls, emails, and put GPS on whatever vehicle she has.
6) Hire a PI for proof.
7) File for legal separation, and go for no spousal support, use of the marital home, and primary custody (if they have it in your state).
8) Then write her a plan B letter and go to plan B.

Don't EVER be afraid of a WW. You are afraid she won't ever forgive you? For what? Ending her affair? You don't want to live with her if she continues to blatantly cheat on you. Keep pushing. SHE WILL CAVE! Did you see how furious she got after you exposed? What did she do? Nothing other than piss and moan. She NEEDS you. You fulfill her needs of financial support and family commitment. She's not going anywhere. She just wants a husband AND a lover. Stand up for yourself and let her know she CAN'T have both.

I'm scheduling a session for early next week.

It's been tough trying to meet her EM's when we're so emotionally distant from each other. I got the kids to do a lot of nice things for her for Mother's Day (crafts, singing a song together, etc.), and gave her a really nice ring with her and her two kids names and birthstones on it, and of course the flowers. She liked all those things, so that was a helpful thing. But I try to converse more with her, but a lot of times she doesn't seem to want to talk to me too much.

And overall, we're so distant emotionally from each other right now, it's hard to meet her needs, and there seem to be so few opportunities. We spend time together, the 15 hours, but she goes out a lot with her friends also. She seems so perfectly happy with the lifeless, cold marriage, it's like there's nothing to save. Basically I see no progress.

Good post Jim, straight to the point.

she is not relying on YOU to meet all her needs

you are relying on her to meet all of yours

hence the difference in the level of "happy" ... she has CAKE-EATER'S disease

That's because she's got another man meeting her needs. Cut him out of the equation, and she'll come back to you to get all of her needs met. But you need to accept no less.

On another note, it's been eating at me that you just let her get a new Audi and let her run off to the "spa" for the weekend (actually OM). What consequences have there been for her affair other than you telling her mother? She walks all over you, and you let her. She has absolutely no respect for you. It's time that you demand some for yourself. Make her experience the consequences of her affair. Expose to EVERYONE that you can again. Stop getting her stuff, and cancel her credit cards. She has such a sense of entitlement, and you need to chop her off at the knees. If you don't respect yourself, she never will.