For a while now, I have been 100% sure that recovery was the right choice. I'm still there, just a little weary. Now that I have a clearer picture of how to recognize MY pattern of behavior, I can begin to remedy that. I've gotten some stellar advice on the forum, on how to change my behavior, and have done so, but the professional level of advice reinforced that AS WELL AS gave me even more insight on how to truly detach.

Now, when confronted with PA behavior, such as you gave an example of, this is when I need to step back, breathe, get my mind quiet, stop the fight/flight, and call out the behavior simply for what it is, such as saying 'ridiculous' over and over again. This HAS and would incite me. I now have to learn how to communicate under these circumstances.

I also need to be more clear about my boundaries. I will allow infringments over and over again, until the line is smudged beyond recognition. I cannot be the least bit ambiguous about them, and I must be honest with myself about what I am willing/going to do if/when boundaries are crossed. Without being clear, I cannot enforce.

Oh, BTW, your comment on my choice to marry PWC, when I did, was spot on. I did marry him because that's who I wanted. His behaviors have changed over time, as mine have. Neither one of us was willing to examine that; we kept trying to live the SAME way, amidst the changes.

This is not about blaming him for anything, rather, learning to recognize when he may be pulling away, and learning to deal with it. It's better to be positive about this, and find constructive ways to deal with it, than to ignore the behavior.

How can you separate out this P/A stuff from garden variety WS ADDICTION/WITHDRAWAL?

Does Jennifer agree with the P/A viewpoint?

Jennifer asked for a syopsis of what has occurred since PWC came home, recalling that she had spoken to him before, and not realizing that the had left and come home again. I gave her a rough run down of events. She asked about how things are after these last 4 months.

I described how things went, initially, which she concurred was not unusual (honeymoom phase, lots of talking of exploring the relationship, physical intimacy, how to make things better). I talked of changes I have been making; she was very encouraging. I talked of the lack of intimacy now. She asked some pointed questions that I can't fully recall. After I answered, she was concerned that PWC was not compensating ME, personally, beyond the housework and our son. She agreed that there was not much to be done about that.

She says that this behavior, during withdrawal is fairly 'normal' or consistent with others, but that continuing of this behavior is cause for concern, hence the two months of me giving more.

Jennifer contends that this behavior could still be a part of withdrawal.

Now, as for what I believe, the jury is out. PWC said to me "I know I am P/A!" I don't know if this was said to him by one of his counselors, during session, or if he knows this of himself. After much reading, looking at behaviors BEFORE any affairs, it seems evident that he is.

Now, I want to get one thing straight. I will not be using this as any sort of an excuse to not work on myself, and do the best I can to make changes that I need to make, regardless of WHO I'm with. It's knowledge and could help me to better communicate.

Yesterday was me reacting, not stopping, breathing and then speaking. Knee jerk reactions are my specialty, hence the need to work on myself... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Mimi

It may fit into #1 and #3 of Jennifers assignement.
LB's and fight or fligt.

So let me change it to this then.

There are times an LB or a DJ comes as a reaction. We give ourselves permission in some cases to LB or DJ because we feel as though we have been LB'd or DJ'd.

It is never acceptable to do this but if we don't know that there may be an issue that is ongoing that may prompt this.

Find the prompt and change the behavior.

This may alleviate the fight of flight as well.

So if the "trigger" for LB's and fight or flight can be identified, and prepared for and we take away the permission we give ourselves to LB or DJ at this time recovery seems more of a possibility.

I don't know how to address the whole PA thing with you. Do you not believe that PA behavior exists? Do you not believe it can have an effect on an M, an A or recovery?
Or do you think that MB won't work when PA behavior exists?

I am not suggesting that SL not concentrate on what she owns. She needs to dig a level deeper on her side.

But if there is a cause and effect, the cause has to be found. Not saying the cause is right, wrong or indifferent, it is just a cause.

We can change our reaction and how we chose to let it effect us.

I totally agree with this 'take' on the sitch Frog. When people talk about moving the 'switch', I now understand what they mean. It is about me owning my part in this, and changing my behavior.

Anything that I have read about P/A behavior has sent up HUGE red flags. I'm not excusing ANY of my behavior, because I CAN control me, I just had been choosing not to. It's subtle with PWC most of the time, and I'm left wondering what just happened. I feel crazy sometimes.

It's almost like being gaslighted on the regular. This is not new, I'm just now SEEING how it has always been. Again, it's not an excuse for any POOR behavior on my part, it's part of a discovery of what I need to do to change MY behavior. This has nothing to do with wanting control and changing PWC.

Basically, I don't have a CLUE about the P/A STUFF... so when you guys start talking about it, I get TOTALLY CONFUSED.

It's like if I from another planet and you start talking about BIG MACS or QUARTERPOUNDERS and I don't know that you are really talking about FANCY HAMBURGERS...

So it'e easier FOR ME if you clarify in terms of MBers or you are more specific...

I have a WHOLE THREAD talking about MY FIGHT OR FLIGHT ISSUES but I have never talked about it in terms of P/A....or whatever...

It's like you guys are talking a different language or something when you go into that stuff...

Like GASLIGHTING...I have GAS LOGS in my fireplace...I've never heard of the LIGHTS... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I thought it was moving the buttons too. I found knowing when to expect the button pushing helped more. In my case.

Knowing this might be a situation that I would be prone to LB or DJ gave me the patience I need to not return in kind.

Escalation is never a good thing. PA or no PA you still own your stuff.

I can justify calling my FWW a big fat stinky poo poo if she calls me a ugly frog licker but is it really right.

I can't control her calling me an ugly frog licker I can control me calling her a big fat stinky poo poo.

So if now I am becoming more and more aware of when she will call me a UFL so I am prepared for the button being pushed.

Instead of moving the button I made it more like the close door button in the elevator. Doesn't really do anything.

The whole psychological point of passive-aggression is to spare oneself the messy implications of one’s anger. And it’s no picnic getting a grown-up man to say he’s a child inside. Say’s Hart: ”You find men feeling as if they were still infants, and acting that way, but not admitting it. Their feeling of anger is so intense. It’s never been dealt with and never brought out, so it feels like a monstrosity.”


This probably explains best what PWC may be dealing with.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE TRAITS
*FEAR OF DEPENDENCY - Unsure of his autonomy & afraid of being alone, he fights his dependency needs - usually by trying to control you.


*FEAR OF INTIMACY - Guarded & often mistrusful, he is reluctant to show his emotional fragility. He's often out of touch with his feelings, reflexively denying feelings he thinks will "trap" or reveal him, like love. He picks fights to create distance.


*FEAR OF COMPETITION - Feeling inadequate, he is unable to compete with other men in work and love. He may operate either as a self-sabotaging wimp with a pattern of failure, or he'll be the tyrant, setting himself up as unassailable and perfect, needing to eliminate any threat to his power.


*OBSTRUCTIONISM - Just tell a p/a man what you want, no matter how small, and he may promise to get it for you. But he won't say when, and he"ll do it deliberately slowly just to frustrate you. Maybe he won't comply at all. He blocks any real progress he sees to your getting your way.


*FOSTERING CHAOS - The p/a man prefers to leave the puzzle incomplete, the job undone.


*FEELING VICTIMIZED - The p/a man protests that others unfairly accuse him rather than owning up to his own misdeeds. To remain above reporach, he sets himself up as the apparently hapless, innocent victim of your excessive demands and tirades.


*MAKING EXCUSES & LYING - The p/a man reaches as far as he can to fabricate excuses for not fulfilling promises. As a way of withholding information, affirmation or love - to have power over you - the p/a man may choose to make up a story rather than give you a straight answer.


*PROCRASTINATION - The p/a man has an odd sense of time - he believes that deadlines don't exist for him.


*CHRONIC LATENESS & FORGETFULNESS - One of the most infuriating & inconsiderate of all p/a traits is his inability to arrive on time. By keeping you waiting, he sets the ground rules of the relationship. And his selective forgetting - used only when he wants to avoid an obligation.


*AMBIGUITY - He is master of mixed messages and sitting on fences. When he tells you something, you may still walk away wondering if he actually said yes or no.


*SULKING - Feeling put upon when he is unable to live up to his promises or obligations, the p/a man retreats from pressures around him and sulks, pouts and withdraws.


A passive-aggressive man won't have every single one of these traits, but he'll have many of them. He may have other traits as well, which are not passive-aggressive.
FROM: Kaplan, H.I. & Saddock, B.J. (1997) SYNOPSIS OF PSYCHIATRY, 8th ed. Baltimore: Williams & Wilkins


The following is an excerpt from the above:


PASSIVE-AGGRESSIVE PERSONALITY DISORDER


People with PAPD are characterized by covert obstructionism, procrastination, stubbornness, and inefficiency. Such behavior is a manifestation of passively expressed underlying aggression. In the DSM-IV the disorder is also called negativistic PD.


CLINICAL FEATURES


PAPD patients characteristically procrastinate, resist demands for adequate performance, find excuses for delays, and find fault with those on whom they depend; yet they refuse to extricate themselves from the dependent relationships. They usually lack assertiveness and are not direct about their own needs and wishes. They fail to ask needed questions about what is expected of them and may become anxious when forced to succeed or when their usual defense of turning anger against themselves is removed.


In interpersonal relationships, these people attempt to manipulate themselves into a position of dependence, but others often experience this passive, self-detrimental behavior as punitive and munipulative. People with this disorder expect others to do their errands and to carry out their routine responsibilities. Friends and clinicians may become enmeshed in trying to assuage the patients' many claims of unjust treatment. The close relationships of people with PAPD, however, are rarely tranquil or happy. Because they are bound to their resentment more closely than to their satisfaction, they may never even formulate goals for finding enjoyment in life. People with this disorder lack self-confidence and are typically pessimistic about the future.

Nope..I can't relate..my H is not that way...

BUT..WORSE than as you describe above..when he was a WH..

He was EVERYTHING to the NEGATIVE...most of the time...

I guess that's why I'm having a hard time relating to this discussion...

Before he was a WH..yes, he had PERSONALITY FLAWS and IRKSOME BEHAVIORS AND HABITS..but he was basically A GOOD HUSBAND AND FATHER...and I didn't APPRECIATE HIM..MY STORY...

The same STUFF that kinda BUGGED me BEFORE..BUGS me now..but NOW I tell him..BUT don't EXPECT him to CHANGE to please ME..

Before we had our son, things were pretty good, great at times. I really enjoyed being around/with PWC. He was in my every thought, everything I did was in relation to our R. I cannot speak for PWC, but his actions showed that I was not always in his thoughts, I was never number one. It never occurred to me to ask for my needs to be met at that time. Without children, there was enough time for me to eventually be in his thoughts.

I did appreciate PWC. I showed him that by cooking and cleaning, and touching, and doing special things FOR him, doing things he liked to do. Life was not exciting, but I felt loved, because he TOUCHED me.

He has always been pessimistic, never a cup half full kinda guy. I have always accepted this. I will continue to work toward acceptance of other behaviors, as I hope he can accept me as a work in progress.

I have personality flaws, and I'm working on finding ways to deal with them, or at least recognize them. THat's actually part of my assignment from Jennifer; annoying behaviors--list them, and learn to recognize them, followed by replacement of the behavior with a positive one.

As far as the behavior while PWC was wayward, OY, it WAS much worse, very doom and gloom, if it's broke there's no way to fix it. He's STILL like this to an extent. It may just be a belief that marriage is not supposed to be this hard, OR marriage IS too hard.

Now that we have an entire thread or two about P/A behavior and PAPD, let's leave that talk there. I actually want this thread to be about me, what i can do, how I can do it, to make changes.

Selfish ole ME, I want my thread to be about me me me me me me.

You guys are great, but you cannot change nor help PWC. That's a job for him; I'm giving it to him. I'm out of the control business.

Also, also, I'm not going to pretend that PWC in no way affects me. Right now, I have a lot of learning to do, and, obviously, detaching, to do. This isn't going to happen overnight.


I will be telling him the same. This was part of what Jennifer stated that I needed to work on, speaking my truth in a loving way. I haven't been practicing this well, and I need to work on it, but it will only happen in real time, as things occur.

Jennifer has put a time limit on how long I will be doing this plan ( a couple of months), as it sounds to her like I'm VERY frustrated. I told her that she was right; this points to my level of tolerance, patience, etc. She says that I must try to engage more and work harder to accomplish the things that I want.

I do not relate to the recovery board because many there are in a two person MB recovery plan. I am not. This is ALL about me turning and holding this course, with a MB plan of my own. I can only do that for so long. It's like being in Plan A all over again.

So back to you.

I think if you watch where you LB or DJ you will be suprised.

There is probably some pattern to it.

Only when you realize the pattern can you break it.

Same with the fight or flight.

There is a reason these things happen. Figure them out and you can address the root problem. Solve the disease not the symptom.

Again only your part.

But as I've been telling ya, our early Recovery was pretty much like that..FOR A FULL SIX MONTHS...

Like PLAN A...

I WORKED on making my H FALL IN LOVE with ME again...


There was not a MAJOR TURNING POINT until after a YEAR...

All except for the SF..a primary need of my H's..which I worked to the FULLEST...

I, oh so wish that SF was at the top of the list. I would LOVE to fulfill that one. I will keep doing my plan, keep looking inward, at myself, and making the changes that I see need it. I've actually changed quite a bit in the past few months.

I think admiration is a BIGGIE for PWC. I have been plugging away at this one whenever I see an opportunity. I see them as opportunities now, so I see that as growth. Instead of 'oh, lord, I HAVE to praise him now', I see it as "here's my chance to show some love". The GIVER is out most of the time. When the TAKER shows up, I tend to her as best I can, and come here.

Some TAKER is good, in a healthy relationship; ours is not healthy right now.

I am also recognizing what parts I have played, and somewhat, continue to play in our R dynamic. How we relate, or DON'T relate. I'm beginning to see the patterns of withdrawal. It's usually something that happens, that I become angry and voice it, when withdrawal begins. Gotta Gotta Gotta work on that anger.

I'm happy to say that the Anger is not there all of the time anymore, neither is the resentment. I'm taking responsibility for myself. I've always BEEN responsible, but I allowed myself to build resentment with PWC, to be the victim. I'm no victim, so I've got to begin to see the resentment for what it is, my own BARRIER.

I look forward to the changes. I look forward to the upcoming year, with my husband, as he is. I look forward to learning more about myself and how I can change for the better. I don't think this is going to be easy AT ALL, and I will have my bad days; I think everybody has bad days.

AS I said, i am taking this opportunity to look at myself, and my behavior.

Silent:

Wish there was a way to move PWC along this path.

Just work on yourself and take the "wait and see".

Meet the EN's you can, and go from there.

Good luck!

LG

In a nutshell, what you said is what Jennifer said. Do what I can, and wait and see.

I have noticed, lately, that PWC is more complimentary of the things that I do, cooking especially. He's been looking me in the eye this week. That's pretty new. After dinner, he has been taking the plates and doing the dishes. Like I've said before, he's doing great with DS.
Many improvements in that arena.

It's becoming easier for me to look at myself, and not be so angry, disappointed when I see how WRONG I have been in the past. That, initially, was very painful. Now, it's an opportunity to grow

I will respond to you back over here...



Don't allow yourself to be UNEASY. Don't give him that control over you.

You have CONTROL over yourself and your behavior. BE THE BEST THAT YOU CAN BE...as a woman, as a wife, as a mother...Do all that YOU possibly can...

If it does not work out, IT WILL NOT BE YOUR FAULT.

You will not OWN or ACCEPT THE BLAME..because YOU will know that YOU would have DONE YOUR BEST...

Plus you are making an ASSUMPTION about him...that STINKIN' THINKIN' that I do, too..You don't know if he's crossing his fingers that he will fall back in love..

ASK HIM about his commitment? Only then can you TO SOME DEGREE know about the CORRECTNESS of your ASSUMPTION...

FOCUS on the ACTIONS..which as you describe HERE..are POSITIVE....

FOCUS ON THE POSITIVE...FOCUS ON CONTINUING YOUR WORK ON YOURSELF...

It will all work out for YOU then...

'Cause regardless of the status of your marriage you will be able to HOLD YOUR HEAD UP, CHEST HELD HIGH..knowing that you have DONE YOUR BEST...

HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF...and YOUR OWN ABILITIES....