Hey SL.

No advice here, just an "I hear you." You have been working so hard. It's hard to keep up the pace without feeling worn out from time to time.

Your answers will come, on their own, in their own way. This is a good place to come and throw this stuff around. It can't do you any good to keep it in.

It is a waste. Such a waste. I've said the same myself over and over the past few days....

Maybe it's the fact that it's fall, shorter, cooler days, and the thought of winter ahead. Don't discount the fact that we are all adjusting to new routines, either, with school starting up.

Hopefully others will chime in on the whole timeline thing.

SL,

Sorry you are down.

I know what you are feeling it is indifference right now.

You get to a spot and no matter what anyone here or anywhere else tells you it is nearly impossible to live with "no" expectations.

You want to see a return on your investment. But you have your answer don't you?

You are paying Jennifer how much? She told you how long? Are you there yet?

So I can say wait it out. Wait to see if the predictions are right. Wait to see if a change is made.

It isn't necessarily from where you are now to a D either. There are other options open. I say stay the course until you and JC are sure it isn't working then try another course.

You have invested so much to walk now.

I know it is hard. What is always scary is the thought "what if it doesn't get better then this?" You have to get past that and give him a little more time.

Then make a decesion. That decesion could be to give him a little more time. Who knows but just be still for now.

Oh and get a massage or a mani pedi. Taking care of yourself always helps!!!!

Sorry to hear about you being down.

Why are you thinking about DIVORCE? You are a ways from THAT, IMO...unless that is what YOU are wanting...

Have you TALKED to him about how you are feeling?

Have you ASKED HIM what's up with him?

I think it's reasonable to tell him that you are UNHAPPY with the situation as it is now.

Have you DONE what JENNIFER has recommended?

Didn't she recommend a babysitter?

Didn't she mention sitting down with him and coming up with FUN STUFF you two could do together?

Alot of ASSUMPTIONS here if he has not TALKED to you....

How do you KNOW there's NOTHING you can do to HELP him?

Seems like you are ASSUMING he lacks the CAPACITY to heal? Can he read that from you? Have you voiced your BELIEF in him or do you see him as INCAPACITATED? A man gains alot of strength from knowing that his WOMAN BELIEVES in HIM...

OF COURSE HE CAN HEAL!!!



TELL HIM!!! "I want to touch you, PWC, but your lack of response HURTS me".



Ask him ONE or TWO a day.....

I would start TONIGHT....



IMO, the WRONG QUESTIONS...Ask him about HIS BEHAVIOR...

Don't back down 'cause of his AVOIDANCE. Ask him AGAIN then ASK HIM why he didn't answer you.



I can't recall it too well...NOW..but I know at 3 months, I'm pretty sure my H MAY HAVE called the OW and was NUTS for 6 months..not NORMAL until a YEAR...

Even now there's teeny, teeny bits of FOGGINESS on certain issues....YEP, after 4 years...

RECOVERY is the HARDEST thing that I have ever done in my 52 years of life..it is not for EVERYONE...

You really have to POWER YOURSELF UP, SL..or you will not be able to handle it...PERSONAL POWER TO THE MAX!!!!!

NO FEAR...NO DOUBT..GUTS TO STRIKE HARD AT THE ISSUES AND TO LEARN TO LOVE YOURSELF AND TO TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF...

I think you are FEARFUL...

Get yourself the BOOK ON TAPE.."FEEL THE FEAR AND DO IT ANYWAY"...I recall that one really helping me during the time period that you are going through...

SL-
I don't know.
Did you try reaching out to him, in bed, after DS is asleep?

Not in a sexual way, just in an intimate way? Put your arm around him. Hug him. Lie with your head on his chest. To warm him up to YOUR touch again?

It sounds like you are both kind of in a withdrawl phase him from whatever, and you from him. It will take one of you to get you out of that.

Is he reaching out at all?

I think it is fine for you to make yourself a better person, but if that will be in exclusion of him altogether, I do not think that that is good either...

This is why I think that you NEED... not SHOULD... you NEED to plan some kind of date night, or night alone with him. With no R talks. Just fun, with no responsibility talks. Show him WHY he loved you, give him the chance to show you WHY you loved him. Even a glimpse.

He is at home. He made that step. I think you need to make a small step towards him, to bring him back.
Ask yourself what it is that he needs or loves most about you. And give him that.

I think it would help him thaw...
You came this far already, extend an olive branch to him a little more... see if he takes it!
I wish you well!

Great post, SADMO!!

Well said, good points..

SL, LISTEN....

How are you doing this morning, SL?

I think mimi's right about the fear. If you are really still, and let yourself feel it all, digging way down....is that's what's there?

Fear is okay, and it's really understandable given what has happened in the past, and what you are experiencing now. It might be better to just let yourself feel it than to let it fester down below. Look that fear straight in the eye. You've been through some awful stuff the past couple years. And you've made it.

Yes, you are taking a chance now. It must feel risky, like you are playing with fire? Putting yourself out there, maybe to just get hurt?

Tell your fear that yes, that is all true...but you've been hurt before and you survived. You are strong. Don't let yourself forget that. Don't let fear overshadow that.

IMO, your ONE reason for sticking it out is a pretty good one. Even if he's the ONLY reason. You'll do this, because you still have ONE reason to do so.

Hang in there. One day at a time. Look at today, not ahead. Live today for today's sake.

Good Mroning! I was reading your thread and just wanted to let you know that I'm thinking about you...

I think that you have some great stuff here and I don't really have anything to offer except my presence to let you know that I'm support you!

I know for myself, this last time, I had to sit with my feelings and just feel them, not an easy task, but I made it through and am all the better for it...

It's hard breaking that old dance pattern!

have a great day! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I'm sorry I did not respond last night; my internet went out, go figure.

You are ALL right, in one way or another. The indifference is there, but it springs from fear. It's easier to just throw my hands up, than to get back to work. I think I'm a bit drained, thinking about what I can do next.

I do need to talk to PWC. I fear that I will say all of the wrong things.

Yup, assumptions noted, and deleted this morning from my thought process. I am afraid that this is as good as it gets. Even when I think that, I think "well, that has to be nearly impossible--this is the worst it has been, there's no where to go but up."

A work in progress, that's me.

PWC has been very busy at work, with many longer days, so we have spent very little time together during the week, nothing really significant. It is temporary, I know, but still bothersome. It's funny, I don't want to wreck his evening with my questions. i know that's absurd.

So, I get that I do just need to tell him how I'm feeling. My fear, he will say that he can't do much about it, that he's trying. He has said that so often in the past; part of the reason I just stopped telling him about how I'm feeling. I am disappointed in myself.

Mimi, good book recommendation. I'll look that up. Fear seems to be a big one for me.

Sadmo, great advice. I do hug him and nuzzle when I want. Those pesky expectations of reciprocation get in my way. I lay there feeling so detached from him.

Sis, thanks so much for checking in. I think my disappointment and fear are controlling me. I just need to feel these things, voice them and move on. Voicing them has been a big road block.

Frog, you got it too. I do feel indifferent a lot of the time. Kinda like, oh well, same ole same ole. Whatever. That's just not good for me.

I honestly have absolutely no idea what PWC needs, and that is part of my frustration. Anything that he needed before seems to matter not right now. I say SEEMS, because I have no idea. He confronted me once about our low level of SF, after our son was born, which led me to believe that SF was HIGH on his list. Dunno, dunno, we'll see.

I did stop living in today. Gotta stop trying to live like it's tomorrow.

Silent:

Don't be.

Talk to him.

Talk to Him.

TALK To Him

TALK TO HIM!

How about those Ravens?
How about those O's
How about those Terps?
How about the construction business and the downturn in housing prices?
How about the Coach filming the other guys?
Don't you think that Donovan should be benched?
Wonderful weather we are having....
Did you see DS's latest paper? He is a regular Picasso, Shakespeare, Einstein....Whatever.
(And he did it because of your (PWC's) help)
I haven't seen DS happier in a long time....Glad your here!

LG

Hey Rin,

I am so happy that you are moving back home. That is such a great break for you and the boys. Kudos to you for doing such a good job or working on yourself, to get to a place that you are happy and strong. Thanks for checkin up on me. Lotsa feelings.

I think I'm just going to start saying what *i* am feeling, not necessarily all in relation to what PWC may or may not be doing, but just about our lack of forward momentum, and the lack of intimacy. I'm not going to assume anything. Hopefully, he will be receptive. He would be daft to come home and want this kind of relationship. It seems that it is up to me to make the first painful strides toward working through the fear.

LG,

I do talk to him about daily stuff, about DS, about his job and the weather, about some show or book or thingy I saw on the internet, or just about anything. Like I said before, he is more of a conversation starter lately. I'm proud of him for trying to do something. Like Sadmo said, he's home, he chose this. Mabye he's afraid of being rejected by ME. I dunno, but I'm gonna ask. Not in a confrontational sort of way, just so that I can answer for myself.

If I am sending out STAY AWAY vibes, that needs to be ratified. I may be holding back in subtle ways that I just don't see or, from my perspective, don't deem so. It woudl be good just to get some feedback. It's taken me some time to work up the guts to really talk to him.

It's strange, in the very beginning, I was all talk, then I went to ONLY action, no talk, now I think I need to strike a BALANCE. I have no balance right now. All that fear just takes over. It doesn't even make sense either, to let fear rule you. It's so crazy. What the heck am I afraid of? He's home. He made this very difficult choice. I did, too.

Why is this so hard?

i THINK THAT YOU ARE MAKING A WISE DECISION TO SPEAK UP AND LET IT GO!(sorry about the caps! LMAO Work!)

I understand how hard that it but you were there at one point in our life with him...otherwise you two would not have gotten together...

I have faith that you can do it...might be hard at first, but opportunity is hidden as hard work...that's why most people don't recognize it!

Silent,

You know I'm really not in a position to comment on what it takes in recovery, but in regards to this -



You are right, don't let the fear rule you. You already faced the fear of losing your M, and you moved past that. Now you are working on the recovery.

Why is this so hard? I don't have a specific answer for you, but I do know that anything WORTH having does not come easy.

Little consolation when you are going through it, but try to keep your eye on the Prize! Think about how much happier recovered couples are here, having used MB principles to rebuild their marriages. YOUR M will be there someday too! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

{{{Silent}}}

Thanks Angels, for chiming in!

I am going to tell PWC about two of my fears. maybe you guys can help me to refine HOW to say them, or not to say them at all, or change the wording, or whatever. Correct me where I am dead wrong.

1. I feel sad that I am not talking to you. Why? So many reasons, but mainly the fear that you will walk away or not talk about them with me.

2. I fear losing my independence. I lived alone, on and off, for so long, that i grew used to making all of my own decisions, all about me. This choice to recover has been very scary for me.

Now, I KNOW that these are my fears. They have to do with our PAST relationship, especially of the last two years.
When I read what BR posted on Wildhorses' thread, about her fear of loss of independence, it rang so true with me. I am blocking my own path with resistance. I have to make the first move, the second move; not for PWC, but for me.

From Wildhorses' thread,




This is what BR said, and it hit me right between the eyes. It also gave me another thing to add to my list of reasons to keep going. *I* chose this path when I decided to use the MB plan, because it works, because it is RIGHT, for me, for PWC, and YES, for DS.

Oh, and Bugsy, your advice is most welcome. Recovery of my marriage is one thing, but recovery of self is something I expect everyone here is trying to do. You have done a fabulous job of listening and learning, and I appreciate you calling out what you see.

Oh, yeah, and RIN, STOP YELLING AT ME!!!!!! Syke! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I came back to talk to you about what RIN has already mentioned...

THE ANTIDOTE FOR FEAR IS...FAITH...

Even if you aren't much of a religious person, you can learn to HAVE FAITH...FAITH IN YOURSELF...that others already HAVE IN YOU...FAITH that we have because we are PRAYING for you and all those HURTING and SEEKING JOY and PEACE...

Use AFFIRMATIONS that you can say to yourself that YOU find to BE COMFORTING..I could share mine but my affirmations may not work for you...

I talk to you alot about FEAR 'cause I STRUGGLE with FEAR constantly due to issues from my FOO..I also WORRY alot...

I've learned the POWER OF MIND CONTROL..it really, really works...

Now, I WORRY alot about my sons...yes, they are GROWN MEN but I still want everything to be PERFECT in their lives...I want them to BE HAPPY and SAFE..I mean all the time...CRAZY...so just yesterday I was almost CRAZY with WORRY AND FEAR after learning that someone tried to break into my son's apartment...

To get a grip, I started THINKING about all of the STUFF that I LOVE..LISTMAKING and ENVISIONING STUFF that I LOVE...Yankee candles, shower gel, landscape scenes, Charleston..ANYTHING that I LOVE I envisioned and before you know it I was CALM and SERENE...THE POWER OF THE MIND...

I remember being FEARFUL around my H.."What if he leaves me again?'..."What if he doesn't love me anymore?"..I would literally tell that STINKING VOICE inside my head to "SHUT UP!!"..That's all it is..just an evil, bad voice inside your head..trying to steer you off course, away from the PRIZE as Bugs said...That voice is NOT REALITY...REALITY would be if your H ACTUALLY TOLD YOU THAT STUFF...

So when I was FEARFUL, I would do OUTRAGEOUS STUFF sometimes..If I were you, knowing that you are not me, I would make it MY GOAL to SEDUCE my H, IGNORING his DETACHMENT from ME..cause the DETACHMENT is HIS STUFF..I would be telling myself, "I NEED SOME SEX" and you are my H and sleeping here in this bed available for that...

FAITH, MIND CONTROL, PERSONAL POWER....

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

WOW Mimi, thanks bunches! The power of positive thinking!

I mean, really, what's the worst that he will say, "No, I don't want to have sex right now!" Okay, big deal. I do, he doesn't, that's not about ME, that's about him, right?

Hmmm, very interesting. I feel so much better just having posted all of the turmoil building inside.

I've narrowed the problem down to me, not talking at all about anything that's really important to me. I want to talk about sex, I want to HAVE sex, I want to talk about going out. These things are important to ME; it's not about him. *I* want to go out, have some fun WITH PWC. Der dee der.

I know these things alone will not save our M, but they will help to create intimacy, so we can collapse those walls.

I worry about money right now. I just read, last night, NOT to worry (in Language of letting go or LOLG for shorts). It's keeping me from moving on the babysitter thing.

Oh, and Mimi, the big D is my KNEE JERK REACTION to our problems. It seeps into my head; I think on it, and how I wouldn't have THIS pain, blah blah blah, and PWC wouldn't be sooooo unhappy anymore; he'd be free blah blah blah.

In this nice little scenario, I CONVENIENTLY don't think about the pain my son will suffer, the pain I will suffer, not knowing that I did all that I can, the pain the PWC will suffer for similar reasons, as well as not being given a chance to SPEAK for himself. There is so much fallout to think of, so I don't think of it. I think of my selfish reasons, so that I don't have to DO anymore.

I know, I know, duh! I would have to learn how to communicate with ANYBODY that entered my life. I would rather start with someone I already know that I love, so I'm not going to talk about D anymore. You are right, it's far too soon, and I am committed to another course; the right course for me.

It's so disrespectful to throw the D card out every time I feel weak or afraid and it is certainly fighting dirty. I know that D is very serious. I have mulled over, time and time again, while in Plan B, what could happen. I did Plan B for a REASON and am going to remain committed. I have been given no reason to QUIT, not really, just reason to fear and doubt, which can be cleared up by talking and reconnecting.

WONDERFUL, WONDERFUL POST!!!....

Mimi, sighing with relief....

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I got my dad to 'sit' for me this Saturday, and let PWC know that I would love to do something with him. My dad also said that he would be glad to sit for me 'whenever'. That was a relief to hear. I could use the support. I am going to go one further and ask DS's other grandpa to take him once a month for an overnight or a long evening.

It's not only so that we can go out, but DS needs these connections with his surviving grandparents. He has not grandmothers, and men are very important in a young boys life. I hope to really express to these two grandpa's how important I think they are.

I thank you, Mimi, for calling me on my behavior.