SP,


There is not a person here that will tell you that you don't have a right to quit right now. Even Harley says aftar an A the BS has the right to walk at any time.

For me I thougt a lot like you at the beggining of this journey.

What has kept me foucsed on recovery is my children. The day my FWW told me she was pregnant I made a vow to be a great father. Part of that was trying to save my M. But not at all costs.

I did however have to really decide if I was the type of person that could move on from the A.

I really thought about it. Could I ever be happy with my FWW again. If not then a D was necessary.

Once I got to the point where I realized it might be possible I started moving forward.

Then I realized that my FWW didn't love me unconditionally and I didn't love her unconditionally. She found a condition I couldn't deal with called adultery.

But for me it was a complete re evaluation. Her A made me realize HOW UNHAPPY I was. She was taking huge withdrawls before her A and not making deposits.

Now we both make deposits and try to minimize withdrawls.

So your question about going to jail or being sick. I guess it would depend on how full her love bank was when it happened.

If it was full of IOU's then you should worry, if it is full with love she will wait.

That is what the conditions are. The more you do to fill her EN's the more in love with you she will be. The more she will be willing to stick by your side. No Matter what.

Then if you do all that and she isn't then what do you really lose? An ungrateful, taker. Not much of a loss.

Unless of course you are in jail for something unforgivable then all bets are off.

My fear in recovering is that if I again fail to meet her ENs (I'm only human), that she'll break my heart again

what are her EN EXACTLY?

what is/would be difficult in meeting them?

There is no true recovery unless you know her needs and she knows yours...

from your old posts it sounds like in your words she was pretty specific with you on her needs...even for years...

chose video games, computer tinkering, and my home theater over her. This of course fell on deaf ears, as I had no understanding of her ENs and felt that she was making false accusations. So she withdrew, I got frustrated and also withdrew, and thus we began growing apart.

is it only human in your opinion to do that again...

recovery for you is ALLL about never ever ever going back to being that person....

YOU not her

recovery is NOT just about the other person..

recovery is about knowing and living your authentic self..

a man of kindness
a man of respect
a man of loving

your goal is to be that man you would want to be...
and to be with....

those are qualities that draw and bind us....

that diminish the need and risk of outside forces....

I live with such a man...and I know that even when we are stressed..
when we are angry
when we are annoying and pissy...

the core basis of our marriage is fully made of up of great deep love and respect...

the way you relate
the way you communicate
the way you fight
the way you problem solve...

all become new in recovery....

and while old patterns rear their ugly head....now and then....

they are a blip in the radar....

Here's my thought about both of you...

neither of you though married many years...have spent many of those years on the same page of committing to marriage...
from your souls...

you had pre-affairs...
you had emotional affairs...flirting...
then she had affairs...

you two have very few years of underyourbelt togetherness

committed to one another....

it's like almost you never have been married...each living your vows....

I think you two should try being married both on the same page for while before you decided it can't and won't work...

what say you

ARK

AMEN to ark...BEAUTIFUL...

Yes.

Mucho grande YES.

Yes, I do understand those concepts, it's just scary that for my WW anyway, that is what will keep her committed to me and our M. I've learned from my past mistakes to NEVER, EVER hurt my W again by cheating on her. I've put boundaries in place ON MY OWN to protect US from MY weaknesses that I now recognize and take responsibility for. I'm seeing now that her bal. in my LB has been pretty low for a long time, but I still love her enough to not cheat on her again.


That's my plan for now, it's just very scary to walk this path. I do recognize though that the Lord has put this trial in my life for a purpose, some of which is learning how to trust in HIM more than her, and allow HIM to be THE source of my happiness.

Noodle:

I'm right there with you! Thanks for clarifying for me the boundaries issue, as that really is a separate issue from "true love".

I understand that we all make mistakes and have weaknesses. I'm not expecting my WW to not ever fall into temptation again, but I do expect her to make the conditions for temptation impossible (no more internet chatting, no more "privacy", aka, secrecy, no more inappropriate workplace relationships w/ men, etc.). I fear she may never realize the importance of setting up these kinds of protective boundaries.

I know, I can't expect her to now, it won't happen overnight, but, will it ever? I'd hate to have her "fall in love" with me again, only to have to end the M b/c she refuses to agree to change the marital environment that will protect US BOTH from affairs. I believe she's got a lot of growing up to do, in addition to falling in love w/ me again.

I believe I have true love for my WW, and always will, otherwise I wouldn't be going through what I'm going through now in trying to get her back. My love for her though doesn't mean I have to remain married to her, as it is a 2-way street, and I do have Biblical grounds to divorce her.

Again, I fear that she will never have THAT kind of love for me that I have for her.


Thanks Bob, I am going to hang in there and by God's strength will give it my all.

That is my MAIN motivation in saving my M. I want only the best for my boys, and shuttling them b/w Dad's house and Mom's apt. is definitely NOT the kind of life I want for them.

On days when I feel like giving up, I think about my kids, and pick myself back up. I do love my wife and am devoted to her, but what she's done and how she's chosen to handle it is continually giving me more reasons to D her. I will not be ready to do that until I can face my kids and tell them with a clear conscience that their Dad did everything he could to get mommy to come home.

I know she would not fill out the ENs questionnaire if I asked her to now, but I have looked back upon things and reprocessed her old complaints to me to deduce the ENs I failed to meet as:

* Conversation
* Undivided Attention
* Recreational Companionship

Believe me, I have learned a tremendous lesson about truly becoming a good H. It's very sad that discovering her A is what it took to wake me up.


ARK, your post is almost bringing me to tears, you have probably hit the nail on the head. Both of us have agreed in our recent R & M conversations that we maybe married too young and were too immature.

She says she's been disillusioned for a long time b/c she feels she was tricked into marrying me, that I was not the kind of man she thought I was. Though I know in my heart that I've changed and am not the same lustful jerk I was back then, I haven't demonstrated that enough to her by my actions and behavior towards her. She probably still believes at some level that I'm still that lowlife she married, and to this day we've never recovered from my past infidelity.

I've shared w/ her that the stuff I'm learning now should be mandatory for people to learn before marrying, that this stuff should be taught in school, or laws passed for couples to take courses before getting married.

We both definitely had no real idea what our marriage vows truly meant. I now do, and hopefully, the Lord will move in her heart to also truly understand them.

I doubt that anyone here would accept that there is ANY excuse for an affair. Most people would accept that the state of the marriage is a joint responsibility of the two of them but that the WS CHOSE to have an affair.

Someone outside a marriage meeting your emotional needs is/can be one or the causes for an affair but at the end of the day, the WS has poor boundaries and chooses adultery.

BigK,

I certainly agree with what you are saying.

I guess it just seems that there is just too much leeway when it comes to marriage on what is grounds for an affair or not.

I mean, I've known men who have gone YEARS without SF and remained faithful to their wives, yet some go a month and it's grounds for an affair.

And of course, when I say grounds for an affiar, I'm simply stating that in their minds, the affair was warrented because a need wasn't met.

But the fact is, that marriage is about sacrifice. A giving of yourself fully regardless of the outcome. Now granted, each person is supposed to be sacrificial in their behavior which is supposed to result in both peoples needs being met, but lets face it, we all fall short at times.

And that is my beef I guess. During those times that we all eventually do fall short, it shouldn't mean that the door is automatically opened for an affair just because I've failed for a stretch of time. That is where the loving no matter what, richer/poorer sickness/health, good times/bad times is supposed to come in.

Let's not forget that marriage is hard work and thankless at times. Of course it shouldn't be, but it is.

I'm just saying that it is our nature to be selfish. To want what makes us happy no matter what or who gets in our way or no matter who we hurt in the process. Of course there are exceptions but I'm just stating the general rule.

So it takes a lot to go from being selfish to selfless, yet if EACH spouse were to do that, marriages would indeed last no matter what.

Too much leeway where? Certainly not on Marriage Builders. On MB, there is NO leeway for an affair. There is never any legitimate excuse for an affair. There are no grounds for an affair. EVER.


This is counter to what Harley believes. He does not believe in sacrifice. He believes that sacrifice is BAD for marriages and leads to resentment. Extreme giving, aka sacrifice, leads to extreme TAKING, which leads to resentment and a sense of entitlement ["you owe me because I have sacrificed"]

He believes, not in a commitment to stay married, but a commitment to CARE FOR THE OTHER PERSON. That is what it takes to make a marriage work.

If you want to get a good understanding of Marriage Builders concepts, check out his basic concepts and Givers and Takers. But be assured that MB never asserts that there are grounds for an affair EVER or that one should sacrifice.

Basic Concepts: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3550_summary.html

Basic Concept #7: The Giver and Taker

Have you ever thought that your spouse is possessed? One moment he or she is loving and thoughtful, and the next you are faced with selfishness and thoughtlessness. Trust me, it's not a demon you're up against, it's the two sides of our personalities. I call them the Giver and the Taker.

All of us want to make a difference in the lives of other. We want others to be happy, and we want to contribute to their happiness. When we feel that way, our Giver is influencing us. The Giver's rule is do whatever you can to make others happy and avoid anything that makes others unhappy, even if it makes you unhappy. It encourages us to use that rule in our relationships with other people.

But we also want the best for ourselves. We want to be happy, too. When we feel that way, our Taker is influencing us. The Taker's rule is do whatever you can to make yourself happy, and avoid anything that makes yourself unhappy, even if it makes others unhappy. If that rule ever makes sense to you, it's because your Taker is in control.

These two primitive aspects of our personality are usually balanced in our dealings with others. But in marriage they tend to take turns being in charge. And that leads to most of the problems that couples encounter. If we take the advice of our Giver, we are willing to suffer to make our spouse happy, and if we take the advice of our Taker, we are willing to let our spouse suffer to make us happy. In either case the advice we are given is short sighted because someone always gets hurt.

expanded article: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3550_give.html

I think Pastor Steve is better articulating my thoughts on the kind of love I want from my WW.

A good example is my own mother. My dad was an alcoholic and a serial cheater. Back then, my mom wasn't even a Christian, but she loved my dad enough, and had enough moral character & integrity to not have a revenge affair on him or leave him. She would never have dared cheat on my dad, despite how much he hurt her. My dad has since been in AA and has been sober for 20 years, and no longer cheats on my mom. I see now that they both truly do love each other, most recently demonstratred when my mom was diagnosed w/ cancer.

I have to disagree on the concept that M shouldn't consist of sacrifice. It is good to make sacrifices in a M if BOTH spouses are making them. I will agree that if only one spouse is making sacrifices, it definitely will be bad for the M and lead to resentment.

The problem I'm having is that the whole sanctity of M is a foreign concept in this post-modern era. The high D rates, and the advice to have to coax a WS back to a M illustrates that people today no longer value their wedding vows as a COMMITMENT BEFORE GOD. That is what I'm praying ultimately my WW will realize.

Don't get me wrong, I love the MB principles, they help to improve and make marriages very fulfilling. But they shouldn't be the sole reason for people to remain married.

SadPunk, you would do yourself a great service if you read up on Dr. Harley's principles about the giver and the taker. He is absolutely correct when he states that sacrifice is bad for a marriage, whether it is one sided or not. When one spouse has to suffer in order to make the other happy, folks fall out of love. This is why it is so dangerous to a marriage. There must be a balance between giving and taking, avoiding sacrifices.

Melody, thank you for your response.


And while I do think some of the MB principles are really good, I also must agree with SP in that I disagree that there should be no sacrifice.

If a couple is going to follow a Biblical format to a marriage (which obviously I feel is the BEST way to do it) then it is absolutely about sacrifice.

Let me explain. The Bible tells us several things about how we are to treat our spouses and what they are entitled to.

Such as, when the Word speaks of "loving your wife as Christ loves the church".

Now if we look at how Christ loved/loves the church, we see a complete and 100% sacrifical love. He said he came to serve and not be served. He gave himself completely, even unto death for the church and sacrificed himself wholey and completely for the churches benefit. He was abused and forgave anyway giving everything He had.

And the Bible tells us to love with that kind of love in our marriages.

The Bible also tells us that our bodies are no long our own. That the husbands body belongs to the wife and the wifes body belongs to the husband. We give up ourselves to our spouses for them to care for and take care of.

But also, the Bible speaks of us treating our spouses as our own flesh because according to the Word we have become one flesh. It says that we wouldn't mistreat ourselves and so we shouldn't mistreat our spouses (I'm paraphrasing a bit here).


So the point is that we are to love our spouses sacrificially. We are to give of our selves, even our bodies, to our spouses unreservedly. And we are to treat our spouses like we would treat our own flesh.

Sounds like a pretty good plan to me.

SadPunk look at it this way. Did you love your W when you were doing the innoapropriate things you were doing? You are still with her so I am guessing yes you did. However that didn't stop you from getting into the situations you found yourself in. It's the same with you W. It seems you have learned from your mistakes and that is why you are looking for help if you are trying to make things right I am sure in time your W will see those changes and hopefully follow suit.

I tell my H this often my love for him is unconditional, but my staying with him is conditional. If he treats me good I stay. He treats me bad and I am out of here. You know what even if I do leave him I will still love him but I have boundaire I am not letting anyone cross. So I can love him and be without him. I hope that makes sense to you.

If you learned from the errors of your ways she can do the same some times it takes some folks longer than it takes others. Hopefully it won't be to late by that time.

And I hope that no one thinks I'm being argumentative. Just stating my beliefs based on the Word, that's all. I'm really not knocking the MB principles. In fact, there are several that I plan on implementing into counseling. I'm just disagreeing on a couple points.

PastorSteve, there is nothing in Marriage Builders that conflicts with the Bible, in fact, Dr. Harley TEACHES people how to AVOID destructive behavior that leads to divorces, affairs, domestic abuse, etc by teaching them how to stay in love. Dr Harley's principles have SAVED untold marriages over the past 30 years. There is nothing unbiblical about that. Staying in love is protection against all those things.

Making sacrifices leads to suffering that causes an imbalance in the marriage, which causes the spouse to fall out of love. The Bible tells men to LOVE their wives, if has to suffer to do that, he will not be in love for long, he will be vulnerable to an affair.

Rather, a couple should learn to CARE for each other in a way that PROTECTS their love for one another, because if they are in love, they STAY married. It is when they fall out of love that affairs, divorces, domestic abuse occur.

Again, it is just a simple TRUE FACT, extreme giving leads to extreme TAKING, which is destructive to the love that binds a marriage.

I hope you take the time to read up and familiarize yourself with Dr. Harley's principles. His principles are God given, in my opinion, and the proof is in all the marriages he has SAVED over the last 30 years. Dr. Harley's principles have not been successful because they contradict the Bible, but because they support it.

Let me see if I can pursuade you to look at the connection between sacrifice and resentment differently.

"Sacrifice" in the terms it is being used in for MB purposes has more to do with passive agressive controlling behavior than actually giving freely to the marriage...which is...i *think*...what you might be talking about.

Think of the difference between a sacrifice which has strings attached...and a gift.

A sacrifice is done for a purpose. Often that purpose is to secure our OWN entitlements whether the spouse wants to agree to them or not.

Very...I did this for you so YOU "should" do this for me.

See how neatly a sacrifice can let you give yourself permission to make a demand?

Sacrifice has an expectation of a return.

Even in scriptural terms this is true. Sacrifice is payment. I paid for X with Y sacrifice.

Now a GIFT has no expectations, or controlling behaviors, or payments, or entitlements attached to it.

I can give it freely with NO demands or resentment if the recipient does not reply in kind and give ME what I would like.

Making a sacrifice that does not work to effectively GET for us what we would like it to get for us creates RESENTMENT.

We feel entitled to have what we want, we feel we have paid for it..and they still won't give it to us.

Now your taker is inflated.

This is actually a frequent pathway to WSville.

Sacrifice--> entitlement--> resentment--> unbalanced taker

Gift-->since it has no expectations attached it is complete at the giving. You are free to give and they are free to receive...there is no hidden agenda.

So MB tries to help both spouses be emotionally honest and treat each other fairly and respectfully.

Being honest about what you can GIVE...really GIVE without becoming angry or resentfull and learning to ask rather than demand is a big part of what POJA is all about.

BINGO! Great post, noddle.