Hey folks,

Just an update. I am currently working afternoons. I did go to an AA meeting this morning. Just so we're clear, I have not been drinking in over a week now. Prior to that, my drinking was under control.

I quit drinking completely and decided to resume meetings when I realized that my WW was using my drinking as an excuse for her A and her reason for not wanting to get back together.

Over the past three weeks, when we would get together, she would offer me a beer when we were at her apartment. When I began to notice she still seemed upset when I drank, I confronted her about it. She said that my drinking was my problem. It was not up to her to decide whether or not I was going to have a beer. I finally got her to state that she could not stand to see me drink even one beer. I told her that since we have had a glass of wine or a beer together on several occasions, and since she had offered me drinks, I assumed that she was OK with my drinking in moderation. She said that I should have known that that was not the case. She asks me if I would be 'OK' with her seeing the OM as long as it was just on weekends. In her mind, she says that my drinking and her affair are the same thing. It is very hard to make the right moves when she is not open and honest about her feelings. I also feel like I am making my arguments in a land where logic is optional.

YOU ARE!!!

It's likely going to be quite some time before she's capable of rational, logical thought.

In this case, simply tell her that your 'assuming' you knew what she wanted/needed hasn't done you a lot of good up to this point...going forward, being honest and SAYING what's upsetting is far preferable than not mentioning when something is bothering her.

My wife had to learn this lesson in MC after HER affair...her standard response to me during MC was "you should have KNOWN". Our MC didn't let that last long tho...while my MC agreed that I should know, she also told my wife that it was up to HER to make sure that I DID know.

Owl, I did tell my wife that she needed to tell me what she was feeling. She actually said that she was going to bring up my drinking when we started MC. We don't go to MC until June 14th.

Every time I spend time with her, I feel like she is planting land mines. She watches what I do and listens to what I say, and then she trows it at me a week later.

Just to give you an example, she came over to visit one weekend. Towards the end of the following week, she started to go off on me about using her A against her. I haad no idea where this came from or what she was talking about. She finally told me that she saw a copy of a book about surviving affairs laying around my apartment, and she wanted to know "how many people I had showed that to?"

The fact is, at the time I was living alone, and the book was never left in the open.

I think it's great you have resumed going to AA meetings, pardner. You feel you aren't an addict, but that doesn't mean you don't have a problem with alcohol. A little anecdotal story here: I have a nephew who was picked up as a minor consuming alcohol a couple of years ago. He was medically (physiologically and psychiatrically) cleared of any thought he might be addicted to the substance. Still, he began to attend AA meetings, usually two a day and sometimes more often. Two years later, he’s reached his majority, finished off his last three years of college in only two, and has a very impressive degree and has found a loving young woman to share his life. He attributes the lessons he learned in AA for his turnaround.

I guess your stated reason for resuming the meetings will serve for now, sir. The important fact is you are attending them again. I urge you to participate enthusiastically in the spirit of that program because you can find a new direction to your life just as my nephew did.

Your wife was testing you, offering you alcohol to see if you could meet her Emotional Need for security. I would be more impressed if you’d detected that without her having to spell it out for you, friend. Once you determined she felt threatened by your consumption of alcohol, you should have reacted quickly.

I don’t know your wife’s total list of EN’s, but I suspect Communication is one of her other problems with the marriage. Friend, I read a lot into the words people choose when they discuss a problem…and I read between the lines too. I’ve been told I do it very well.

With respect, sir, I think you’re in this mess partly because you do not communicate well with your wife. Everywhere in your posts, I see words like “confronted.” You’ve “tried to get (your) wife to understand the concepts.” “(You’ve) tried to tell her that my desire is…” You acknowledge her point of view, you say, and you try not to argue with her. You say you “…tell her what I needed from her.” You also “went over the four rules for marital recovery.”

Get the picture, sir? Man, you’re treating your wife more like you’re the ship’s captain and she’s the second mate. Sir, you need her on board as a fully functional partner, and you need to start working on that very soon because she’s warning you your window of opportunity is closing.

She asked you if it would be okay for her to see the OM only on the weekends as a metaphor for you drinking…perhaps only on the weekends? She was making a BIG, BIG point, mister and I think you’d better open your mind and your heart to what she’s saying. I think your WW is not nearly as deep in the fog as you think.

I tell you here and now, sir, I’m quite comfortable saying the parallel she was drawing was very insightful. Not equal, but parallel. She’s telling you that what you’ve been doing is extraordinarily painful to her. Don’t get wrapped up in the (uncontested) fact that her infidelity has hurt you on a level that she cannot actually understand just now. Concentrate on understanding you’ve hurt her and she’s telling you how you can correct the problem. You’ll ignore the implications of what she asked only at your peril, Losinit, because she’s trying to get something very important through to you.

Now, all is not lost. It’s not even close. She’s working more with you than she is working against.

Sir, get yourself to your IC and ask him or her about how you might be coming across to your wife. If I’m wrong, I’ll be happier than you can imagine, but I think you must work on not coming across so dominantly in your conversations and your actions. If this has sparked something within you, or if your IC agrees you can work on this, I would work HARD on it if I were you, pardner.

Then, you know what I would do? I’d go to her and sincerely apologize for the way you have been coming across to her. I’d tell her you don’t know where you got lost, but you want her back at your side instead of following the Captain’s orders, okay? Then let the matter lay on the table, and just begin practicing what you’re preaching, as the old saying goes. Remember, she’ll not be convinced by words; it takes action, and it’ll have to be confirmed over a period of time. Don’t get impatient. Do NOT get impatient. I think it would be one of the worst mistakes you could make at this point.

I think you would make tons of points with her if you do it sincerely. Don’t try to fake it, pardner. It won’t work. However, if you approach it correctly, you will have anticipated a point of contention and taken steps to rectify the problem without her having to push you to it. That’s a marvelous thing to give your spouse as a present.

I’m no longer sure whether her affair was a serious one or not. Talk to us about how sure you are about NC and how she’s been acting about that NC. We need more information, sir.

Losinit, today I see lots of hope in your marital recovery. It will take much hard work, but there’s an excellent chance for you and your wife to salvage this. Hang in there, okay?

LH,

Wow! First of all, I do have a problem with alcohol. Alcohol has always been a part of my life. My parents and their friends were all hard drinkers. It seemed like there was always a reason to have a party when I was growing up. My brothers, sisters, cousins, and the friends I chose were all hard drinkers. I haven't known anything else, and my habits were formed in this environment. I realize this, and I realize how this has hurt my wife and others. I am in counseling and I have been working very hard to change my drinking habits. All I can say is that it takes time to change ingrained behavior.

LH-"Your wife was testing you, offering you alcohol to see if you could meet her Emotional Need for security. I would be more impressed if you’d detected that without her having to spell it out for you, friend. Once you determined she felt threatened by your consumption of alcohol, you should have reacted quickly."

I see your point, but I'm not sure how I would know that she was testing me. I actually had one beer on two separate occasions, after that I felt something was wrong so I didn't drink around her the next couple of times I saw her, and she offered drinks, and I asked her about how she felt.

LH-"With respect, sir, I think you’re in this mess partly because you do not communicate well with your wife. Everywhere in your posts, I see words like “confronted.” You’ve “tried to get (your) wife to understand the concepts.” “(You’ve) tried to tell her that my desire is…” You acknowledge her point of view, you say, and you try not to argue with her. You say you “…tell her what I needed from her.” You also “went over the four rules for marital recovery.”

You hit the nail on the head hear. If there was one area of our marriage, other than my drinking, that really bothered my wife, it is how I argue. She feels completely dominated. Not to make an excuse, but I grew up in a family of ten. I just realized, after reading falling in love staying in love, that I use selfish demands and disrespectful judgments quit a bit. I actually spoke to my wife yesterday and told her that I had recognized this and that I was going to work very hard to change this.

LH-"I’m no longer sure whether her affair was a serious one or not. Talk to us about how sure you are about NC and how she’s been acting about that NC. We need more information, sir."


She went NC on 4/30. We have spent a lot of time together, almost every day since then. I am fairly confident that she is NC. Like I have said, we are not together right now, so I really can't fully verify this. She does talk about it, and she has asked me what my concessions will be now that she has gone NC. I don't understand your statement about "how serious" her affair was.

LH-"She asked you if it would be okay for her to see the OM only on the weekends as a metaphor for you drinking…perhaps only on the weekends? She was making a BIG, BIG point, mister and I think you’d better open your mind and your heart to what she’s saying. I think your WW is not nearly as deep in the fog as you think."

I'm not sure where you’re going with this.

To "read her mind," friend, you watch her eyes, her face, and her body language. If she makes the offer of a beer, it’s always a test. When you accept, her lips might tighten, her body might become stiff, or she might even turn away. Her eyes might darken, her voice might tighten up. Where she was talking easily with you, she might become reticent. If her legs were crossed, she may re-cross them, moving the leg nearest you over the other so as to “exclude” you. She may distance herself from you by scooting away, or sitting back down when she brings you the beer just the tiniest increment farther away from you on the couch…or even move to another piece of furniture.

All of these may be very subtle, almost unnoticeable to someone who doesn’t know her, but friend, you know her very, very well. You know darn well how she behaves when she’s pleased with something, and when she’s not, from observations dating back years. She might not verbalize her reactions, but they’re there. I’m suggesting you might just need to pay attention to her, pardner. Give her your total attention and see where it will lead you. Ask your IC for more pointers, okay?

All right, where I’m going with suggestions the affair might not have been as intense as many we see out here may well be wrong. What led me to say it is most adulterers cannot even talk about the affair for a very long time because they still have a very deep emotional attachment to their partner in the affair. They actively, and very vocally resent your intrusion into their fantasy world. I don’t see that in your words and (remembering I’m a rank amateur, not a licensed counselor) your WW doesn’t seem to me to be that distressed by the termination of the affair, unless there are things you haven’t told us.

If that has any validity at all, your job is made vastly simpler because you do not have to break her away from the addiction to the OM. That’s great news. It doesn’t mean you stop your Plan A, because I think a simple Plan A attitude is a darn good thing to keep up the rest of your life. While you cannot force EN’s and Rules on her, you can begin coaxing her back to a frame of mind where she’s receptive to them. You can’t push her, because the absolutely normal human reaction is to resist, or push back.

However, you can “lead by example,” right? Believe me, she’ll see it.

She’s watching and testing, trying to see where you really stand. She hears your words, but she knows she needs to see those words confirmed by solid progress in your actions. Make sense? See, I’m a firm believer that baby steps are the way to lasting progress. Don’t get impatient and I think you’ll be better served.

I’m curious about what your wife means by “concessions.” Can you tell us a little more about how that came up in the conversation?

Okay, I think you need to make a serious, lifetime commitment to AA. I think that will do more for you and your relationship than any other single thing you ever do. Do it for yourself, pardner. I know it takes a while, but you’ve got to be tough. Don’t be afraid to ask for help.

Hang in there, friend. We’re with you.

LH,

I understand your comments about reading her mind, but the truth is, almost all of her body language is negative at this point. She does not initiate physical contact, hugs, etc. She keeps a distance.

As far as her A is concerned, this past conversation was the first time that she actually mentioned anything at all about her A. Up to this point, the best response I got was that she would not "deny" the A.

I am certainly trying to lead by example. I am stumbling through plan A the best I can. It is a learning process.

Why do I feel like I am the one that screwed everything up? Why is it my duty to kindly patch things back together? Some days I just don't have the heart for it, others I can't muster the energy, and others I seriously wonder what I'm fighting for.

Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to imply that her choice of committing adultery was not an obscene thing for her to do. Adultery is ALWAYS wrong and nothing in the world makes it right. Adultery is an intensely selfish thing to do and it’s never justified.

You’re not the one who screwed it up. You aren’t responsible for her decisions. The most you might have done is not do as much as you could to make your marriage affair-proof, if there is such a thing. The problem is, you have made the commitment to picking up the pieces and trying to put things back together. That’s a difficult thing to do, and it doesn’t happen overnight. It’s going to take months and the progress will be glacially slow at times. Remember, Dr. Harley talks about a Plan A that lasts on average for six months, and a Plan B that might last two years.

Now, Dr. Harley talks about the unfairness of a BS having to attract the WS back to the marriage. Sir, you're absolutely correct. It's not fair, it's not right, and it's very, very debilitating. That’s why I’ve always said BS’s who come here have to be very strong, tough-minded individuals because recovering a marriage that has gotten to this point is a hard job that seems to take forever.

Have you read Surviving An Affair, Losinit? I think you’ll find yourself in Dr. Harley’s words about ending the affair. Also, if you can get with Steve Harley for a professional counseling session, you would be well advised to. He can get more done for you in an hour’s interview than you would possibly believe.

What I'm trying to do, friend, is to make your Plan A as good as it can possibly be. Plan A isn't about becoming a doormat; it is about improving oneself to be more attractive a spouse in preparation for a possible Plan B. That's all. Improving things about yourself you identify as being less than what you want to be improves your self-image and also influences the WS, albeit in an indirect manner. I’m very sorry it seemed I was being critical of your efforts to get the marriage back on track. It was entirely unintentional.

Finally, I wonder if you would consider getting to your doctor and asking for antidepressants. Man, what you’re going through is exactly for what they are designed. Their only effect is to smooth things out for you, making the low points less stressful and helping keep you on an even keel. Give it some serious thought, okay?

Stay strong, Losinit.

LH- I wasn't trying to imply that YOU were critical of my efforts. On the contrary, I have found your posts to be very insightful and also very helpful.

I had to laugh when you suggested that I look into anti-depressants. I have been taking them for about 5 years now.
In the past year I lost my license, I almost lost my job, I have been tested and now am on a screening program for prostate cancer, and I have what is called a prolapsed rectum. You can Google that for some interesting reading.

My anti-depressants have been bumped up twice already and my doctor is looking at adding another drug to the mix.

My last post was simply a case of me feeling sorry for myself.

Ahhhhh, well, my heart was in the right place, huh? I'm glad you're on antidepressants though I'm sorry you've been on them for so long.

So, have you asked your doctor for advice on lowering the stress in other ways...exercise, for instance? I've always found exercise does good things for me. One, I like myself a lot better...I'm more confident and carry myself more confidently...when I'm in good shape. (And staying that way isn't easy for a 59 year old, lazy old fart, let me tell you that.)

Second, my exercise of choice is weight lifting, which I've done for 45 years, give or take. With that exercise, one's weight goes down dramatically (and in a good way), AND you can see verifiable results in the mirror. It builds my self-image and starts a feedback loop back into my self-confidence and ability to deal with others.

Third, heck...exercise is just plain good for you.

If you can't work out any more than you are, let's brainstorm to find something else that takes your mind off this thing that has intruded into your life. I'm sure your IC will tell you that you just can't deal with this 24/7. You have to allow yourself breaks where you don't have to address the problem.

I love reading good books, for instance. A good novel is a doorway into another universe where MY problems don't exist. Now, Tom Clancy has only written so many books, and I'm more of a science fiction fan anyway, so finding a good read is hard sometimes, but it's always worth it. That's one suggestion. Now it's your turn to come up with one. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Things are tough for you right now, friend. I've been there, as a huge number of MB folks have. I don’t have a magic wand to wave off the depression. There were times I suffered from it also.

The only thing I ever hit on was to work on recognizing my thoughts when they slip down a bad path. I make myself stop thinking about whatever was depressing me and consciously do something/anything else. I have trained myself to shift my thoughts from whatever I’m doing into some other channel by whispering a trigger word in my mind.

Right at the moment, I use the trigger to switch whatever bad thoughts I’m having to a discussion with myself where I catalog all of Robert E. Lee’s mistakes as commander of the Army of Northern Virginia…and there were many such mistakes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> (I’m a minor student of the Civil War, among my other oddities.) It seems an odd thing to do, but it diverts me from whatever depresses me. Check it out with your IC. He’ll probably laugh, but it might key something in his mind that will help you accomplish a little detachment from your problems for a little while.

Hang in there, pardner.

LH

LH-

I ride a bicycle (about 30MI), or jog 4 to 5 times a week. I also bought a membership to a very nice health club, but I haven't had much opportunity to use it. I have lost 25 pounds since the beginning of April. I have to admit that most of that was due to a lack of appetite.

I think that I might do better with a good book. I have read four books in their entirety and parts of several others, but they have all been about affairs and salvaging relationships. I think I need a break.

I do obsess on my situation almost 24/7. Part of the problem has been this site. Every time I read a post it seems like time is of the essence. There are lots of posts about "missing your window of opportunity. To the best of my knowledge my wife is not seeing the OM, and we are set for counseling June 13th.

I really think I need to give this a break for a bit. I need to clear my mind and recharge my batteries. I think your last post was the one I've been looking for.

Thanks, Losinit

Okay, work hard on not obsessing. The exercise is good, but it doesn't serve its purpose of distraction if you can think while you do it. Check out that health club?

Quit obsessing. I'm sure your IC will tell you it does nothing except to increase your blood pressure...and reading books about what you're trying to escape from is distinctly non-productive. I'd go to Half Price Books (the only place I can afford to buy from these days) or somewhere and pick yourself out an action novel that has absolutely no philosophical message at all, okay?

Recharging is good. How about a new hobby? Woodworking? Scuba diving?

I need some advice.

I have two DS, 19 and 17. They know that their mother and I are separated. They know that she has had an A. Both sons are struggling in school right now, and they are very hard to talk to about any of this.

I am wondering how I should approach them, how much should they know, what kind of issues you had to deal with concerning teenaged children, etc.

What resources are available to me to help me better understand their issues?

I'd make appointments for them with a good counselor. They need to understand it's not their fault and I don't think you (or your WW) can get that through to them right now. You're too close to the problem to be able to help them adjust.

My deep sympathies to your sons.

LH,

Good to here from you.

I have made them an appointment; however, they are both currently living with me. We have some good times together, but we also have days where we shuffle around avoiding each other. I can see their pain, and I don't know how to address it.

In my opinion, there most important need, both as children and in light of our separation, is security. Our lives are very unstable at the moment, and I feel that I am failing them.

Get thee to a counselor with them, friend.

Then, do things with them. Gone on a fishing trip lately? How about a bicycle ride for all three of you? Or a trip to the beach?

I think the counselor can help "tell" them they're going to be okay. Getting closer with them and showing them things will be okay with them, no matter what, works on their feelings of security from another angle.

Talk to your IC about this. I'm sure he or she will have some good pointers.

Did you go to an AA meeting today?

You will begin to see things change within your household. Now is the time to set up your own way of doing things in YOUR household. Set your own traditions. If you used to eat at 5:00 pm before, change that to later time, say 6:30 pm. Try and get your sons involved in their own lives. Have them help plan a menu for the week and have them help with the grocery shopping. In addition, explore Longhorn's suggestions. Find activities to do with your sons, even if it is throwing a football around the yard. Look for ways to connect to your sons, or at least show them that you are available to them if they want to talk...

I know you are all going through a tough time. Hugs to you all...

The very words I was searching for and could not find. The boys need to find a new stability in their lives and I think you've given losinit a very good place to start. Thanks, Xetta.

LH-
AA yesterday, not today. Thanks

X-
At my son’s age, there isn't a lot of scheduled family time. They have afternoon jobs and like to spend evenings with their friends. I have thought of taking LH suggestion, but it would be forced family fun, especially in the case of my 17 year old. I do fix them meals when they're around, and we have gone out to eat or to a movie.

The issue that I am most concerned with is the time we are together that nothing gets said. We use to talk quit a bit more. When there mother was around, this was especially true. She was always better at initiating conversation with them.

I was actually hoping that others with teens might tell me their stories. Maybe someone has a good grip on the issues they are facing and could give me pointers on conversations I should have?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Yeah, forcing anything on teens is doomed to failure...that's kind of why my suggestions were for places you could "get away" from the peer group. But maybe you could change the dynamics of how the family group works, as Xetta suggested.

How about this? Start a thread specifically for this one question and ask for input from others with teens. I'm sorry I can't help much in that area -- my children will be 39 and 40 this year and I don't have daily contact with those of my grandchildren who are in their teens. They're always on their best behavior when they visit, and that doesn't lead to a very good analysis of what they "actually" think about things. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />