Cherished
Thanks for your comments.



I openly and honestly discuss how I think and feel with my wife. When discussion goes in direction of unproductive, then I say very little. Unfortunately, we talk a lot about the dog, the kids, and our next vacation. Very little discussion about ourselves personally. On our last 10 day vacation, we were pretty quiet. So quiet that it was uncomfortable.

Normally when I am with one of my sisters or a close friend I like a good conversation. I love having a 4 hour sat morn breakfast with a sister or friend and having great conversations. I enjoy talking about a lot of stuff, including personal things. Makes me feel very good.

I look forward to the Retrouville weekend. Depending on that outcome, quite likely I will want to also sign up for Marriagebuilders seminar with the HArley follow up work. With all the negative comments I've gotten from my wife, I know she will be very reluctant. But at that point, I will most likely say we need to do it for the sake of our marriage. Otherwise, the marriage will fall apart.

Welderman

Orchid
Thanks for your comments.



If necessary, I will go to the Marriagebuilders seminar and plan on using Dr Harley as a resource. How much does he do and what doesn't he do. My wife and I submitt homework and then he comments on it? If I send email questions to him, he responds with suggestions? Is phone counseling part of the package or is that outside the package (200 dollars per hour).

Welderman

welderman, he doesn't comment on your homework, but you will fill out a survey showing that you have done it and understand it. If you have questions, you can ask him directly on the private MB forum. He comes there every morning at 5am to answer questions.

You can talk to him in person at the weekend. Afterwards, you will have access to him on the private area of this board. If he feels like it is necessary, he will ask to speak to you one on one. [I don't believe he charges for this] BUT...he will do what is necessary to get you the help you need. He really DOES take a PERSONAL, PROACTIVE interest in his clients.

This was the perfect opportunity for POJA. The two of you could have talked about where to put the vacuum cleaner and reached an agreement on it - this is a small issue that would have been good to practice on. But instead, you took the Passive/Aggressive Martyr Approach and ignored him and stonewalled him and turned your back on him.


What discussion?

No, Cherished, the approach you are taking is the "I am a Passive/Aggressive Martyr" approach. This has destroyed your marriage every bit as much as anything your husband has done, but hey, it's your life. It's just very, very sad for your children.
Mulan

MelodyLane
Thank you for your resonse and information



This is very encouraging. When my wife and I have seen Psychologists/marriage counselors, it does not have the feel of someone who is helping pull you to a resolution. We go in for appointments every couple weeks and talk about things. But years go by without any goals (of counselor) and no taking stock of what if anything has been accomplished. I feel like I am the one who is trying to direct conversation and homework to carry things foward.

The counselor we are with now is pro-marriage but does not seem to follow up with us on our homework assignments. My wife is not interested in doing the homework discussion assignments. The counselor does not keep on us to complete them. So I bring them up, sometimes a year afterwards. Some very important discussions which really did not go beyond a sentence or two but should be discussed in depth over a period of time. My feeling is that counselors are there to see you for the 45 min and beyond that you are on your own.

I have spent too much mental energy trying to figure out how to move foward. At this moment, I am very enthusiastic go get a Harley on board.

Welderman

Mulan
Thanks for your comments.



My wife cannot discuss and enthusiastically reach an agreement. A lot of our agreements come up days later as something that I "forced" her to make. She does not own anything as an agreement out of her own personhood to own and bear.

Of course, Retrouville and Marriagebuilders should address these issues.

Welderman

w, one of the main reasons I think Dr. Harley would be great for you is that he seems to be pretty good about flushing out unwilling partners ["freeloaders"] and bringing things to a head. If he feels your wife is not a willing partner after you have tried everything, he won't hesitate to recommend seperation or divorce. And he is perceptive enough to identify the true source of the problem pretty quickly. He is all about ACTION, not empty TALK, and that is exactly what I think you sorely need at this point.

Mulan,

Dr. Harley has used the word "sabotage" in describing my husband's approach to POJA. I thought what my husband suggested about putting the vaccuum cleaner more in the back of the closet was a good idea. I had no problem with that. The problem was with his saying "if ever."

Welderboy,

What I have done is suggest that we tell each other one positive and one negative per day from the behavior of the other person. This morning, he asked for my positive and negative from yesterday, and I told him I didn't like his saying "if ever." He then told me he doesn't like that I get angry. I just looked at him.

What I see with you is SO similar to my situation. What do you do with a spouse who says, "Leave me alone"?. What I am trying to do is meet his emotional needs. Domestic support is #3. He can see changes in the house as I work towards a better organized house. He may still take jabs like "if ever". I try hard not to react.

My husabnd and I have both talked on the phone to Dr. Harley. I would estimate that total time has been about 12 hours. I've emailed him probably more than 100 times on the private forum. He addresses my specific questions. It's not just canned answers. I've also called the radio show more than 100 times.

This isn't just a business for Harley. It's more of a vocation. Sure, he makes money, but if he was just in it for the money he would have sent us on our way long, long ago. We have paid the MB fee and that's it.

I just cringe in reading your emails because they are so similar. Agreements being something you are forced to make? Classic. That's exactly how my husband does it. Why did he have an affair? Because I forced him to have a fourth child. Of course, my mother's comment on that was that it wasn't an immaculate conception.

What I have done is say I am willing to give feedback if asked and I have worked on emotional needs which do not require his cooperation. I don't want him to meet intimate emotional needs at this point. How can I have sex with a man who, on the fourth of July of this year, screamed "I hate you" at me at 7 AM in a public campground when the kids were in our tent just feet away?

The very first thing that Dr. Harley told me when I talked with him on the phone was that there was no hope for our marriage unless my husband enthusiastically agrees to the POJA. I didn't comprehend then, but I do now. Where I have started is to solicit input and be willing to accept input and then to make measurable changes in my behavior. This is not passive aggressive martyr. This is doing your best in a situation that is so bad that even someone like Dr. Harley tells me to give it up. I'm not willing to right now. This isn't the MB plan because Plan A and Plan B didn't work. This is a test. As Dr. Harley told me, I'm in an experimental group of one. What Harley means is that he doesn't think that what I'm doing is going to work, but he's willing to give me advice and tell me why he doesn't think it will work and be open to changing his program if my approach does work. He's told me for about two years now that I should leave the marriage because Tom has a philosophy of marriage which is that I should be happy for him no matter how much what he chooses that makes him happy has an unintended consequence of my being hurt. In other words, Harley has told me that his philosophy means I should have been happy for him in having an affair because the other woman made him happy. This view of my husband didn't come out of thin air. It came from my emailing him and calling him on the radio to tell him what my husband has said to him.

When someone like you comes along to Harley's program with a spouse who says similar things to what my husband says, Harley's got the knowledge from dealing with me to deal with you. I think that's the beauty of the MB program. After a while, the exact words of a spouse are so darn similar to those of other spouses that Harley can quickly identify the problem and suggest a response. Similarity doesn't mean same outcome, by the way. It's just that the words spoken by a reluctant spouse can reveal a lot, and Harley has different approaches once he understands what the spouse is saying. He can "read between the lines." An example of this is that a spouse who says "I'm not in love with you anymore" often is in love with someone else because people tend not to remember the feeling of love unless they are in love.

Cherished

Welderman,
Look in today's Carolyn Hax column. She describes the approach taken by Marriage Encounter, which is to communicate feelings rather than judgments. In this approach, the way to end anger is to accept the other person as he/she is.

Marriage Encounter, a program run by the same people as Retrouville, works on communication of feeling. Marriage Builders works on that plus changing behavior.

Cherished

Cherished - Thanks for your comments.
Not sure where to find the article you referred to.

Over the weekend, my wife and I had some discussions that left of both feeling empty and not very satisfied.

One of our psychologist homework assignments was to apologize for things we have done which have hurt our spouse. Early in this process (about 3 years ago), I apologized and was sorry for a number of things and told wife ways I would improve.

In the 3 years my wife has apologized for a couple things which were somewhat insignificant but I accepted them and forgave her. I have hoped that these small steps would lead to more a significant realizataion of things she has done to jurt me. About a month ago, I brought up this homework assignment again.

My wife said she really could not think of anything she has done to hurt me. Said she searched her soul before God and nothing was shown to her. My wife asked me to bring up anything that I knew of.

So I brought up a particular example of how she lied to me about going on a new job interview. Her last day at work (old place) she was all dressed up when she got home which I commented on and asked her about. She said she was at work cleaning out her office and boxing things up. So I asked why she was dressed up, was it to go out to a luncheon or something. She said no, she just happened to be dressed up. (She was very dressed up).

I did not believe her, since quite often she was saying things when appeared be very manipulative, not truthful. So I checked around a bit an found out that she had interviewed for another job that day. Obviously, she did not want to tell me about it and lied when I asked about her being so dressy that day.

So she asked me how I knew and I didn't say. She said I was hiding things in the marriage and that she could not trust me if I was unwilling to be honest. As I have commented, we get into a ping-pong match and things I ask her about she bounces back at me.

This whole business of her interviewing for a job at this place was an issue for me because she is now working for the same guy that left the other place (a couple months before my wife left). She seems to be very connected to him. With the first psychologist, I brought this up as an issue but it never got discussed really. When she quit her job, I asked her and she told me she would not be looking for a job with this guy.

In our discussion about telling me the truth, she went into a long legaleese (Clinton type) script dissecting about how going to this other job place was not an interview, it was really looking at the place to see how long the drive was and to meet some people there to see how she liked it. It was not a job interview because a specific job position did not exitst. That she would nver work for this guy because the chain of command does not work that way - Blah Blah Blah.

Finally she said she should have told me that she drove up there. I responded and said that I felt hurt that she lied to me. She refused to accept that she lied to me (about why she was very dressed up) and just kept repeating that she should have told me that she was going up there.

So in the end, we were both very frustrated. I certainly feel very manipulated with her not bing blunt honest with with. I flat out said that I felt that she was talking legaleese to me and being like Clinton.

She expects me to believe and accept everything she says at face value. But based on our history, so much of what she says is to smooth things over with no really concern for my feelings.

My wife has stated her nerviousness (to the point of tears) about Retrouvaille coming up and I can see why. I am not willing to accept mainupulative babble talk and she cannot be completely honest in what she really does. When she does talk in a manipulate manner, I just calmly question her further which gets her agitated.

Welder(man,boy)

Welderman,

You are putting pressure on her to admit to lying to what is likely at minimum an emotional affair -- why wouldn't she be nervous?

I'll pass along advice I have found to be useful:

1. Focus on behavior in the present, not behavior in the past. Look at behavior today. Don't even concern yourself with behavior yesterday.

2. Accept what she says as truthful. (This is not Harley advice, by the way.) Your job is not to stop an affair or convince her of anything.

3. Recognize that the pattern of behavior of a spouse is to justify an affair by deciding that the spouse does not care about them. Your job is to make that justification at least more difficult. Ask her for complaints about your behavior today and then take steps to correct that behavior. For example, my husband has complained about my losing my glasses. I put hooks in one closet at the entryway (I use glasses for driving) and so my glasses have a place where they can be put.

4. Forget about trying to persuade your wife to be intimate with you. She's in withdrawal. Your job is to be available, not to coerce.

5. Take her to the Retrouville program, but I believe that it is about communication and forgiveness rather than creating habits that work well for both. The Carolyn Hax article, which is also about communicationa and acceptance rather than joint agreement, you could probably find by going to the local library and asking for help in finding a newspaper that carries her advice column, or you could just go to the library and look through copies of newpapers that have a Saturday edition that are available at your library.

6. Sign up for Marriage Builders. I felt as though I was on the last stop with Harley's program. Whether my marriage succeeds or not, I know that I've given it my best shot. Harley is recommending Plan B to me because Plan A has not worked, but I'm trying a different tactic first. Anyway, if you really want to convince yourself that Plan A is not the way to live out your life, try reading Love and Hatred: The Stormy Marriage of Leo and Sonya Marriage by Willima Shirer (who also wrote The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich). In Harley's parlance, it's the story of a wife who stayed in Plan A even though her husband continued to violate the POJA. Having read another book on Tolstoy's marriage and having gotten through part of this one, I know I will not return to Plan A. I will continue to meet non-intimate emotional needs until and unless he is willing to follow the POJA. Right now he thinks "my opinion doesn't matter at all" even though I am working on creating habits that address his complaints. As far as I can tell, he has used his complaints to justify independent behavior.

7. There's no point in questioning her. I'd stop initiating intimate conversations altogether. What you want from her at this point is complaints that you can address by changing your behavior today. All you are doing by challenging her talk is making her withdraw more.

8. Your story has reminded me of my own ever since I read your posts. The problems, as I see them, are very deep. She wants to live her life without interference from you. She isn't married. She's single. And she is trying to justify uncaring behavior by deciding you don't care about her so why should she care about you?

9. The Marriage Builders program is terrific and the follow up support is bottomless. However, in the end, Dr. Harley cannot change your marriage. Your wife needs to decide to be a wife. It's as simple as that. By coercing her to Retroville or to Marriage Builders, you further justify her view that you don't care about her. Encourage, yes, but don't coerce. And be tender. If your marriage is to survive, she's going to have to face the fact that she has been uncaring towards you. It's much easier to defend your own behavior by trying to cover it up with lies and pointing to the spouse as uncaring.

Cherished

Cherished
Thanks again for you advice, which really helps me in my perspective.

For a long time (year or so), I did not bring up this job stuff. I just concentrated on being a good husband and showing love to her in my actions. Minimized any relationship talk.

But a year went by with her saying multiple different ways that we cannot be close. Do not read the same books, do not do ministry together, do not have fun together, do not like the same jokes, that I do not listen to her, etc. When I have suggested ways to do ministry together (vist some of my Moms old friends, have a block Bible study, etc), she gives me a list of reasons why we (she) can’t do these. It becomes laughably obvious that she is stirring up excuses with no sincere real suggests (in my opinion).

So I brought up this issue (appears to me) with her boss. He represents her spiritual leader, mentor, confidant (her words several years ago), and other things. A least 3 years ago she was very emotionally tied to him as she would come home many nights from work and did not have time to talk to me. I was trying to get us into counseling but she was too exhausted to talk about it. Come to find that she spent hours at work (Church) talking to her boss about his problems. Fundamentally I believe her issues are from family of origin with parents that put her thru emotional incest. But knowing how much she is tied into this guy 3 years ago, I believe it is probably the same situation (she doesn’t talk about him anymore).

So at this moment, I believe that her working for this guy is keeping her from focusing on our relationship and seeing me as a husband.

Welderman

Cherished

Something particularly sad in my marriage relationship has been my wifes effort to rewrite history and paint so many things in a way to make me look bad.

I hear from my daughter “mom says you’re being mean to her”. Our family has had what I think is a large variety of different vacation types (camping, Disneyworld, new york, London, etc) but my wife has told me recently that all the vacations had to go my way. But in fact, most of these vacations were not specifically my idea. But to me, every vacation was great and I never said otherwise. My wife says I never gave my son the freedom to use house for his friends to entertain when in fact I believe more the opposite is true. A few days ago she got angry with me for suggesting a change in vacation plans where I though I was helping her out in her concerns. When I asked her why she gets angry when I think I am trying to help her, she comes up with a reason that does not fit and seems very contrived. On vacation, she gets angry at me so I ask her to explain. She seems to fish for an explanation that does not fit with no sincerity. She does not/cannot say that she gets angry for no reason or some deep reason out of herself. Rather, she always come up with a reason about me. Something I did or didn’t do. The ususal ping-pong game.

It would be great if she reflected on some of the things that she has said and come back with something about herself rather than me. But it has not happened.

So I am very reluctant to just continuously be agreeable. But of course I have to be the best husband possible. But simply being agreeable has not worked in the past and lately the number of lies has been building up way too fast.

Our counselor has told me to be agreeable I think for the same reason that Cherished said. I need to let my wife be comfortable around me.

I am struggling with how to proceed. At some point, reality needs to come and I need to become very blunt and completely honest with how I feel very manipulated. I could be the perfect husband but as Cherished has pointed out, my wife is not looking for that. She already has something/someone else in place that supplies her needs.

In her eyes, the really negative thing about me is I know so much about her. She is really great in many respects but also has huge issues. The rest of the world knows her as an all around very special person whom I am very lucky to be married to. A variety of people have said this to me. From all indications, she has given up on emotional attachment to me.

Welderman

Welderman,

It sounds very much like an emotional affair. She doesn't need you because she has him. My husband's affair started with a woman because she was interested in religion. (Sorry -- GAG.) My husband was a former seminarian. The spiritual communion somehow justifies breaking God's commandments.

If I were you, I wouldn't even try to connect with her. You could try telling her you are hurt by her contact with this man. If she says you are being mean, you could ask her why she thinks that -- in a non-denfensive way. You want to know. It is very important -- probably the biggest challenge for me in changing my behavior -- NOT to give in to get along. She has learned not to consider your feelings. You need to reflect on why that is so. If she says you are mean and then wants you to do something you don't want to do or accept behavior on her part that is negative for you, watch out. Let her know you will stop doing anything she doesn't want you to do, but don't agree to do or tolerate her doing what is negative for you. That's not being mean. That's being a doormat.

An example from my life is that my husband has brought up getting our son to practice trombone during the summer. He has gone on about how I don't teach discipline and etc. I'm willing to come up with ways to teach discipline but not interested in getting him to pull out the trombone. As a result, "it's my way or the highway". How about any of a number of ways to teach discipline? Does it have to be that he practices trombone?

Dr. Harley will probably tell you to try to continue in Plan A as long as you can stand it and then go to Plan B. Personally, I'd recommend the book (Love and Hatred) given above to convince you that things will just get worse, not better, if you do this. Heck, she's already not been much of a wife for three years. What will turn the situation around? Probably only Plan B. If you can hire someone to see if she is having a physical affair and then expose it, that could help. Here in the Twin Cities a few years ago, a pastor of a very large church was exposed as having an affair and he had the absolute gall to say that his bad relationship with his wife and his spiritual sharing with his lover brought him closer to Jesus Christ. There's a reason why Dr. Harley calls an affair "the fog."

One thing I'd like to add -- I believe that the condition for attendance at Retrouville is that no one is actively in an affair. Your wife, like my husband, may somehow argue to herself that she isn't really in an affair. At any rate, I've heard Harley say that nearly every program he does has at least one couple where either husband or wife is actively continuing an affair, and I've seen emails reporting that the lover was being called from the MB conference! Of course, we have more problems than that. My husband was literally losing his temper and swearing at me during some of Harley's presentations.

In my husband's case, at least the OW doesn't seem to be in the picture anymore. The fog seems to have cleared somewhat. He still seems to blame me because I want him to consider me when he makes decisions -- which to him means I don't trust his judgement and don't care about how he feels. I'm still hanging on to a commitment to marriage. In part, I'm realizing that there is fog for the BS and fog for the WS. As a BS, I've been deep in fog. With it clearing, I'm considering different approaches. I'm done with Plan A and not ready for Plan B. Dr. Harley's approach is Plan B. Even though he doesn't agree with what I'm doing, he's willing to make suggestions. I consider that willingness way and above beyond what I signed up for with the MB program, and I appreciate it. Only I will know when it is time to shut the door and be done.

I cannot recommend the Marriage Builders program or Dr. Harley enough.

Cherished

PS. Here's a link on what Catholic bishops are trying to do to address marital dissolution. http://www.usccb.org/laity/marriage/marriageconsult.shtml
My view is Harley is in the skills-based approach.

Cherished and everyone

After putting a lot of thought into this yesterday, I have resolved to shift gears in some ways.


I will not bring up past events anymore at this stage. My wife absolutely disagrees with most everything so it has become pointless.



Not sure how I should handle this suggestion. I think for outright lies I will just simply and calmly state what I know to be the truth and leave it at that. Not get drawn into an argument.



I will certainly focus on my behavior, taking responsibility for as much as I can when appropriate.



This is certainly true. I will not coerce her. Just let her do what she decides to do.



She willingly agreed to Retrouville at the counselors suggestion which is very positive.




I also plan to sign up for Marriagebuilders seminar, depending on the outcome of Retrouville. Also, I looked up "Love and Hatred" online and plan to read it.



For intimate conversations, I will mostly let my wife bring things up and discuss when she shows a willingness. I cannot have my own timeline and fixed agenda. If she is not ready or does not want to discuss something, it truely is pointless and counterproductive.

Welderman

She works for a church and has spent additional hours during or after work at church discussing her boss's problems?

Thanks graplin for your thoughts.



I think a lot of people would be shocked at the relaxed standards that too many Churches have. I work for a large company that simply does not freely allow intimate relations to develop between supervisors and employees. Very quickly these types of situations are laid to rest with sometimes a boss getting ushered out the door for good.

Too many churches are about 20 years behind in their management of of inappropriate relations between workers. My wife was not just working for this guy but was involved with his problems on an emotional level. She would come home grieving for him. Too often she would be talking to him at 9.00 pm about something. Of course she said it was "always work" related but I could see her light up during those times. She had a special look for him when I saw them together at church.

Again, too many churches have turned a blind eye. Yes, they have some rules in place but at this church I know in fact that there was infidelity going on among the pastoral staff. And this is a prominate evangelical church. Problem is, nobody at the church really concerns themselves with this issue.

Welderman

At our seminar, we chatted with a couple at lunch. The woman had been a stay at home Mom involved in ministry but no longer was. It was uncomfortable. We switched to talking about our girls taking gymnastics.

You could call the pastor and say you feel uncomfortable. However, if there is infidelity amoung the pastoral staff, that may not be an effective move. One thing you could do is sadly let your wife know that you feel uncomfortable going there because of her relationship with this man. You will stay home. If she's willing to go with you to try other churches, you would like that.

It's a move toward Plan B.

What until you read Love and Hatred. The more I read, the more I think there is a big difference between betrayed husband - betraying wife and betraying husband - betrayed wife. This story has Leo who treats his wife badly and then she starts an emotional affair with a man. Leo wrote a letter to his wife in which he drew up five options for what they could do. What happened, eventually, after years and years, is that the object of his infatuation dumped her. In the meantime, Leo suffered. This is all in Chapter 13 of the book.

I relate more to the woman slowly going insane with her husband treating her with disregard and contempt than I do to her reaching out to another man, but the chapter on Sonya's infidelity may be a grim indicator of what might be in your future if you wait out her infatuation in Plan A.

Somehow, the rules don't apply for a person having an affair. With your wife, a church-related relationship may provide cover for what is evil.

Cherished

Everyone

Trying to better understand my wife. Not exactly sure, but her style of relationships appear to be strongly tied in to her family of origin background.

She has a large number of friends but none that I know of that she shares real personal feelings with. She does talk about the kids, her job, and related frustrations but does not share marriage or relationship issues.

With our 3 kids, she seems to get over involved with them emotionally. If I am interacting with my daughter who might be getting very upset or emotional (like many 16 year olds), then my wife gets emotional in a very similar way. Not sure if it could be described as co-dependency but maybe.

My wife gets very involved at work. She does not enjoy the work but really enjoys the relationships, in particular with her boss. Not only does she do her work, but she gets involved with his emotional life. When he is having a rough day, she takes those emotions into her life. When he is depressed, she comes home depressed. She does not say this openly but several years I picked up on this by some indirect questioning. The way she gets emotionally connected to the boss seems similar to what she does with the kids.

With me, she really does have a wall up around herself. Compared to her boss, she talks to me differently, looks at me differently, and certainly does not laugh or cheer up around me. With her boss, she takes on a whole different life.

So I believe my wife is in sort of any emotional affair with her boss but it is probably a different kind of affair compared to someone who is not as handicapped by FOO issues. I believe she has at least Avoidant Personality Disorder so she does not have skills in honestly, forgiving a spouse, and asking for forgiveness. When our marriage relationship hits a few bumps, she pretty much avoids any of the hard work towards reconciliation.

Of course with her boss, she does not have to deal with marriage relationship issues to it is a more ideal world. He is good in the sense that he gives her lots of affirmation. Growing up in a dysfunctional home, all of her good vibes and sense of worth came out of her accomplishments and positive feedback from non-family people.

So I am working on giving her strong affirmation and praise. Unfortunately, the marriage counseling entails a lot of real life working thru difficulties and relationship problems which are complete love-busters to her. I have become a difficult person for her to be around. Plus the fact that I know her so well whereas no one else has a clue about what she goes thru.

I am not sure how I feel about her being with her boss. In some ways, she is infatuated with him in unhealthy ways. On the other hand, the lifeblood of her personality is deep affirmation albeit in a somewhat unhealthy ways.

Anybody out there with understanding to share? I would be interested in any other perspectives.
Welderman

John Roberts, in giving an opinion on affirmative action, said, "The way to stop discrimination based on race is to stop discriminating based on race." Very insightful. I bring this up because you seem to be doing your best to help her find an excuse for inconsiderate behavior. It's easy. There is no excuse. She has free will, and she chooses to withdraw from you and carry on an affair with a co-worker. The way for her to stop inconsiderate behavior to to stop behaving inconsiderately towards you. It's her choice. It's her free will. She is not a puppet. She is not at the mercy of events that occurred in her childhood or a warped personality. She got in the habit of making independent decisions, and there has been no end of it.

It pains me to read your posts. If you go to the Marriage Builders program, Harley will tell you to leave the past in the past and focus on behavior today.

The problem for you, welderman, as for me, is that it is painful to look at behavior today. It is painful to face the reality of the situation today. I think this is a Dr. Philism: "You cannot change what you do not acknowledge."

I saw you created another post, which is why I posted on your old thread. The book that I recommended is a very detailed account of the downward spiral from a relationship in which the husband had increasing disregard for his wife's feelings. He got to the point where he couldn't stand being with her and literally fled the home. He ended up catching pneumonia and dying in a trainstation in an unknown town -- however, the trainstation is now famously called "Leo Tolstoy Station." Why couldn't he stand her anymore? She was trying to keep him away from a "disciple" who was taking possession of his personal diaries, all his manuscripts, etc. She had tolerated increasing disregard over 48 years of marriage, and it drove her to hysteria and paranoia. But, in the end, the bad marriage was a direct cause of his death. What you are doing by trying to use marriage counseling to diagnose and treat a personality disorder will drive her farther away from you.

She is being selfish, terribly selfish. This isn't FOO. This isn't Avoidant Personality Disorder. This is selfishness, pure and simple. Immaturity. It's the attitude that I deserve to be happy even if what I do makes you unhappy.

Cherished