I realise this is super long and want to thank you in advance for taking the time to read it all. Also, I posted it in the general- other topics- and resovling conflicts, because I do not know where is best. the title over there is "we constantly fight vicously - pls HELP"
I am new here but have read for days and nights different posts and threads in the forum. and have read the basic concept, the Q&A as well as articles, but still find myself confused about my situation. I hope somebody can help me. My boyfriend and I have been together for 2.5 years. Just for the background info, he has 2 teenage sons who live with him 100% of the time, and I have 1 teenage son who also lives with me 100% of the time. We do not live together yet, my BF and I, and this is another major issue because we cannot resolve the problem of where we will live, but this I can deal with in another post in the future.

We live in 2 different cities 30 minutes apart. We usually see each other on the weekends, but when we don't, we talk on the phone every night to talk about our days, and sometimes personal and relationship issues. Now for the last year at least, we have been fighting about anything and everything, at first every week almost, now, every week at least.The fights have become more and more vicious, verbally abusive, accusative on each side, demanding. We have seen, at my BF's request, a couple counsellor 1.5 years ago, who has identify my BF with having the major issues that cause the fighting (mainly trust which he recognised I do nothing that makes him doubt him, it comes from his past relationships). Funny because he had kept accusing me of not trusting him which is what brought us to counselling in the first place! Still, even with this info, no major change when we were done with counselling. One year later, I went to see a different counsellor for myself because I was wanting to know what I could do to resolve the fighting issue. I obviously help making it a fighting match, how can I stop it, what can I do or say (or not) to prevent the fights. The C gave me tips to help but it is very difficult to apply, but I managed to stop defending myself and it made some positive results but not for long, as it stopped working after a while. It took no time for the vicious fights to come back on track. It seems that my BF needs to fight, and will push and push and push with sarcasm, DJ, AO, AH, D, to the point of no return, even if I hung up the phone, tell him to stop, agree with him, see his point, don't become defensive. But he won't stop and then I start defending myself constantly. I even started to be disrespectful myself and hate it because this is not me. Towards the end of the C period, after about 1 month, my BF joined me at my request. The first time, he stormed out in the middle of the counselling session, very angry, leaving both the C and I in shock. The counsellor told me that my BF seems to have the intention, the concept and the willingness to make our relationship better, but not the capacity. The second time which is also the last time we went, the counsellor told us that it might be time to say good bye and leave this relationship since we are not able to make a stop to those constant fighting match. When we left, I felt devastated. My BF tried to convince me to not break up. He said he did not come to counselling to have the C tell us to separate. We discussed for about 10 minutes in my car, then he got angry again (sorry I cannot remember why) punched the inside of my car, giving me my keys back (he has the keys to my apart) then left. I was done with this relationship. But he kept phoning me, begging me, telling me he never broke up with me. He succeeded to convince me that we can make it better, by telling me what he needs to change. That was last January.

Since then, the fights have not stopped but I love him so much that the thought of breaking up hurts too much and feel I would make a big mistake in breaking up with him. I gave myself until the end of June that just past to see if things got better otherwise I decided I would leave him then. That was giving us a chance over a period of about 3 months. I would rather be alone than fighting for the next 30 years with him. It did not go better, the fights continued every week, with viciousness and ferocity. The end of June came, and when we fought, I stopped all communication with him, but he would not stop trying to get me into talking with him. I sent him a long email telling him that I love him more than he can think of (which he tells me the same by the way) but my dreams of marrying him would have to remain just that, a dream, because I see no change on either side, to make our relationship go smoothly. He is very persistent in convincing me to not break up even when he has given me my keys back several times before (breaking up), I did too BTW, I am not implying I am innocent. So we tried again to make it work. I am very clear in my expectations in this relationship, let him know what I wanted and he told me he can make a big difference and change.

We went on our planned camping trip. He did make one change while camping, except that we fought 3 times in 10 days! First time was about him imagining I was thinking about my xBF that I haven't seen or talked to in 25 yrs! The second fight was about him making demands of me that he is unable to give himself. He has done that forever it seems, pointing fingers at me or my son (and others BTW), accusing me of this or that when he is the one who fits the descriptions. The last fight was so bad, and done in front of my child. His sons did not want to come with us, his youngest went to his mom in another province for the summer, his oldest is 18.5 and was working. My son did not want to come because he knew we would fight and had no interest in witnessing that, but I could not leave him alone, so he was the only child with us. My son has had enough of these fights that he has witnessed for over 2 years and is quite stressed out about them, understandably. My BF left me that last day of camping while we were droping off his camping stuff at his place and his oldest witnessed the fight went he came down to help out. My BF did not stop being verbally abusive in front of the kids, and told me he would come to my apart the next day to pick up his stuff here and to give me my keys. He did. To me, that was a break up. It hurt, but I promised my son that I would never fight anymore and have him witness that.

For the following 9 days, my BF sent me constant emails and text messages and phone calls, but I would not pick up nor answer by the way. I gave up after 9 days, when he wrote let's talk or say good bye in a civilise manner. So I met with him, to say good bye, we ended up talking and I told him that he has an anger problem and never will I ever fight viciously again, especially not in front of the kids. I said I had no hope that we could make it, that we have tried everything, we have discussed at lenght after every fights and seemed to understand what changes need to be made on each part, that we say beautiful promis to each other, that every talk seem very positive, but shortly after, we are back to our same old vicious circle. I had absolutely no hope. He wanted to try one more time, and he convinced me once again. So I told him that we can try, but we won't see each other in front of the kids in case we fight again, which would be extremely probable, and he had to see a counsellor for his anger problem, and he did. I said until we prove that we can fight without turning it into abuse. He hated to only see me like we did in the beginning (dating phase only), but did it for a few days. He convinced me after a few days of re-dating, to sleep over at my place, that this was not a relationship, that he is 45 and past the dating stage, etc. I actually missed him a lot too. I accepted to see him like before. We did wonderful for a bit more than 2 weeks. Our longest time ever! We still fought, but he remained calm and we decided that we do not have to agree on every issue, but give each other understanding. The fights were very controlled, we discussed calmly, reached an agreement that we do not have to agree on everything, and were both happy with this. When he started to hurt me with his comments or otherwise (he has never being physically abusive BTW) I only had to ask if he was trying to hurt me for him to realise he was falling down that path and he stopped. Those 2 weeks gave me so much hope that we can finally make it, that we got out of this vicious circle. Until last Wednesday.

Like I said, he phones me every day during the week if we did not see each other. But once our usual evening phone call is over, I had never phoned him back the same evening or emailed him for the 2.5 years we are together. We say good night and talk again the next day. Except 3 times the last 2 weeks. Here is what happened. One evening 2 weeks ago, I sent him an email with a question after we finished our call, he did not answer it until the next morning. He was supposed to be watching a movie at home with his son. His excuse for not answering my email was that he turned off his computer. But he never turns off his computer. he admits it looks bad, but his reason seemed good, he has a virus and had to turn off his computer. One evening last week, after we talked on the phone, I phoned him 4 times on his home # and cell # but he did not pick up. I left messages the 4 times to please call me, but he never did. I sent him an email that same evening telling him that I phoned and want to talk to him, but he did not answer the email either until the next morning. I became suspicious, thought he was cheating on me, or out, or something. I thought he would read my email, or hear his phone beeping signaling he has messages. There was no way he could not hear his cell as it does beep every so minutes until you stop the beeps. I confronted him the next day after his work, he remained calm (WOW) but he was so convincing of the reason he did not phone or email me, that I decided to believe him. He said he had talked to his 2 sons that day, and to me, so he did not expect any phone calls (I never phone after we talk remember?). He said he went to bed about half hour after we hung up the phone at 7pm, turned off his cell sound, and took a sleeping pill. He never goes to bed until 1am usually, and he never turns the cell sound off. I was still suspicious, but had no proof of anything, so I decided to believe him in both instances (the email the week before and the calls and email that week),but it happened a 3rd time Tuesday night. We have been emailing each other for some reason that evening, and by 9:20, the email stopped from his side even though I sent him more with questions. When I asked him why he did not answer my emails until the next morning, what did he do last night, he ridiculed me, told me he has a web cam in his bedroom, that I can spy on him all night if I want, that I don't trust him, that he doesn't have to stay by his phone or computer just in case I contact him, but never told me what he did the night before.The fight escalated again with his usual self, sarcasm, accusations, turning the conversation around, making it my problem, nasty comment such as shut up, etc, avoiding to answer the question of his activities or whereabouts. I still don't know anything about where he was or what he did after 9:20 that evening. I am afraid he is having an affair, or one night stands, or out with somebody. I feel he has a double life, one where he is a complete stranger to me. I don't know what he does after we talk in the evening, which usually is done by 9:00 pm at the latest. I very very rarely ask him what he did after we talk, as I try to be trustful, and when I did ask, he got upset or told me he does nothing. Same when he takes time off work for a day here and there, he apparently stay at home doing nothing. I confronted him on that one too and he accuse me of not trusting him.

Since Tuesday last week, we have only communicated by email and I just have no more energy to meet and talk for hours which we usually do when we "solve" issues. Instead, I wrote emails with issues I wanted answers to, but he avoided answering most of the issues I brought up, by being accusative, by confusing everything, by "pretending" he does not know or he told me already, or whatever, he is full of excuses in my eyes. I am now very angry at him, I am exhausted, but want to know if I am making a big deal out of nothing. I have no proof of him cheating on me, but it is kind of difficult to check on him since we do not live together, and he said I can ask him about his whereabouts anytime, that I have the right to know all about it, but when I ask, he gets angry, avoid answering, gets mean, etc. but does not answer my questions about his whereabouts. I challenged him Wednesday by email by saying that this is fine, he wants it his way, no questions whatsoever about his whereabouts, no disturbing him with calls, emails or textmessages outside the allotted time on the phone (which is usually done by 8h30), that he can be free when we are not together, etc. but this is going to be the same for me. I gave him a bit of his own medicine and he did not like it, of course. He wrote that he needs to trust that I am not seeing somebody else and needs to be trusted. How can a relationship work if we don't know about each other's whereabouts, if we give blind trust without questions. He is a great person when we don't fight, we love being together, he shows understanding, we have lenghtly conversation, some very deep and serious conversation, we want to get married, live together, and my needs at every level are filled so are his he says. What should I do, is this worth saving, is it time to say goodbye definitely? I should mention that I am very confused about what we fight about, because one minute I say or do something and it is perfectly fine, one other minute, I say or do the exact same thing and it starts a fight. He knows about this too. Also, he asks of me to say or do what he does not deliver himself. He points finger at me, he accuse me of what he does himself, sometimes things I don't even do myself. I cannot take it anymore. I feel confused, will I make the biggest mistake of my life if I break up with him, should I try harder to make things work, hoping he is going to be so happy with me and see how great of a partner I am. Will he finaly make the necessary change once and for all, to make this relationship work?

Would it be possible to scale that back to about 2-3 paragraphs?

minou, Dr. Harley wrote this to another lady over on the Weekend Forum who was experiencing problems BEFORE she got married. While the details are different in your situation, you should be able to take something from the advice he offers:



In other words, if things are this bad in the INTERVIEW PHASE, dating is an INTERVIEW for marriage after all, maybe it would be wise to conclude that this test has FAILED and move on to a better match for you.

Mel-

I completely agree with your advice.

This is almost exactly the same advice I've given my oldest son in his relationship...and I'd not read it directly from the good Doc himself.

Interestingly enough, this is around the same timeframe (that 2.5-3 year mark) that my son started having issues in HIS relationship with his GF. I've read in other sources that this is the timeframe in a relationship when the "in-love/infatuation" starts to really wear off...and its when you start to see the beginnings of love as a true VERB insted of a feeling. That might be the source of things for both the poster and my son in his issues I think.

I would stop having contact with him. It doesn't sound like you two will ever get along. Usually things are fine up until marriage, and for a couple of years after, and THEN things start to unravel. You have been blessed with a WARNING of how a marriage to him would be - just like it has been for the last couple years, but WORSE.

Have you ever talked to his ex to see if THEY were constantly fighting too?

to believer,
I never spoke to his ex but according to him, they fought for 20 years where he was abused verbally and physically by her, and where he was a doormat for 20 years. He terminated their marriage when he found out she was having a EA and PA with one of his friends where they worked at, my BF, his XW and his friend. She eventually married the OM who also divorced from his former w. A big mess.

IMHO, there is no reason to continue in this relationship. People that verbally abuse one another and have vicious fights often times confuse the drama that exists with love. There is an absence of love and respect BEFORE you are even married....there is no point in continuing.
Honestly, I hope he is seeing someone else at this point so that you leaving becomes a no-brainer.
Get on with your life and engage in a relationship that your children would be proud of.

If this relationship is causing distress to your son, how on earth can you - a mother - continue to inflict pain on your child?

When this man moves onto his next victim, I suspect he will tell her that YOU were verbally abusive and aggressive to him.

TA

minou, its real simple, find a more suitable match for a husband. This is not Afghanistan where you cannot choose your own husband. Please don't squander your freedom by making a bad choice. Use your freedom WISELY by choosing an APPROPRIATE, STABLE husband and father for your children.

IMHO whatever is it that you see in him?!?

You are being irresponsible to expose your son to this mess and to provide such an unhealthy relationship role model to your son.

Your BF definitely has some issues AND they are NOT your issues because he is not (and never should be) your husband.
Who cares how/why he got the way he is - that's his problem to solve. You however, have only yourself to blame for putting yourself and your son through this. Forget relationship counseling with your BF - get yourself into counseling to figure out why you would even consider such a man as a possible marriage partner!!!

Minou,

Every assh*le out there loves somebody.

Saying that means NOTHING.

It is your actions (and your bf’s) that are the words of love and exceptional caring.

My recommendation for nearly everyone that is in your situation is to walk away.

The “joys” of the relationship that you are in now don’t sound like they could be the nourishment of endurance that would be required to walk through the flames of heartache in the future.

Not succeeding at a relationship before marriage is perfectly acceptable. No vows means that you have the opportunity to walk away with little in the way of negative repercussion.

You have to make the decision.

You have to decide if you could live with this abusive and self destructive person for the rest of your life or not.

The next step that you need to take is to get yourself into some individual counseling to figure out why you would subject yourself to such a toxic relationship and how you could engage yourself in the abusive behavior necessary to perpetuate what you do have with him; what sounds like the equivalent of an emotional bar room brawl.

I wish you the best.

Choose your path carefully.

I appreciate enormously everybody's advice, especially that you all showed care about my son. So do I BTW, that is why I will never have him go through and witness our fights, the ones we have had were mostly over the phone, or in the privacy of our bedroom, or in the car alone, he witnessed a few, and in my eyes, just a few is still too much because it hurts, and I have taken a strong stand about this. You also showed care about my well being as well. I know you only want the best for anybody out here, a lots of us, as I read and keep reading posts, are in great pain about our relationship. We need help or advice sometimes to make a move. I have not made any decision yet whether I give this man I love another chance. He is seeking counselling for his anger and he does actually recognise that he has an anger problem. Where it comes from, whether from past relationships or from anything or anybody, it still does not excuse his anger responses, and he is aware of this. You see, when we are in such state of confusion that fights or cheaters bring to us, it is very difficult to remain focus and make a clear decision. That is why I found myself here, in this forum.

I have a question that has been in my mind though while reading everybody's response and advice. Would you consider giving me the same advice should we have been married? Why does it make any difference, if at all, whether we are M or not, our committment to one another has been established from day 1. And I hope I am not hurting anybody at all in my next comment, it certainly is not my intention. You see, if I even had the proof that he has/had an A while with me, there would be no return, whether married or not to him. This is simply not acceptable at all. But I see lots of effort by so many of you to save your M with cheaters. Some of you are going through extensive hurt to restore what has been broken by the one who had promessed in front of God to be loyal to the end. As I said, I am in no way trying to offend anybody, and I am not disregarding your advice because I am still considering all of them, and you are all very strong toward one direction only for me, the one to leave him, to run from him, to seek somebody else. Just wondering if it would have make a difference if he was my H.

No, I won't give you the same consideration as if you were married, because you are NOT married. There is no committment here. There is a huge difference between being married and just dating. Not to mention that this would be a poor choice for your son. It would be tragically bad judgment to marry this man or pursue your dating relationship and no one responsible would help you in such a pursuit. Sorry.

Basically, you are test driving the car and it has turned out to be a lemon. The smart thing to do is accept that the car is a dud and move on. No one buys a car that breaks down during the test drive.

minou, the best advice I can give you is to get into counseling to find out why you have such tragically bad judgment when it comes to choosing partners. It is one thing to drag yourself into bad relationships, but to do it to an innocent child is plain irresponsible. Be RESPONSIBLE.

you had a committment from day 1? well, that might explain part of the problem.
If you had children with him I might feel differently...but right now your only loyalty is to your kids.... and this man is a lousy choice for a step father to these kids.