I wanted to post about this guilt thing, which I believe was brought up in the now locked down thread. But it really does have significance in recovery, and I was hoping to breach the subject, without being disrespectful or getting locked down Many of us in recovery, have lingering doubts or obstacles to true and complete recovery, based on our WS"s absolute refusal to accept certain truths from the betrayal in the first place. I would place myself as one of those people, based on, again, the WS feeling as if he or she was the VICTIM in the whole mess that they created by CHOICE.
My FWW firmly believes, she was the victim of a predator, whom she considered a friend. Often times, this can be true, but, she has refused to consider the choices she made that led up to her betrayal. That has left me empty hearted, and alone, in my thinking that she certainly should have know better, and had better boundaries in place, so as this could not happen.
I asked my W at one point, how would you breakdown the responsibility of this affair? She replied that it was 80% his fault and 20% hers. This is the very major obstacle that I face.

Truth is, in an A, it is 100% the fault of each of the A partners, as they both made the same horrific choice. Nobody twisted their arm, and to hide behind the defense of alcohol or any drug involved is absolute lunacy. I am 5+ years past Dday, and my W still hides behind the pretense that she was somehow " a victim".

It seems to fit in with some very pertinent posts of recent, and I am not trying to get into a locked down thread, where all is lost b/c of disrespectful behavior to one another, but, it is a very real and important Q that should be resolved, one way or another.

This post simply says that that I have more Q's than I do answers, but frankly, that's always been my case.

OK, so don't beat me up, (although I'm ready for that), it's a simple and logical question.

All Blessings,
\Jerry

Jerry,
This must be incredibly tough for you to deal with. Any WS or FWS that does not take full responsibility for their actions is wrong...and I believe a risk to repeat that behavior. You can't change what you don't recognize.
Your wife and every other WS is not a victim...they made a decision to do what they did and no matter what temptation was put in front of them regarding infidleity, they had...she had..the choice to not act on it.
I am sorry you are dealing with the pain of this unresolved issue so long after d-day.
Jerry, does this ever make you doubt your decision to remain in the M?

Be well,

MEDC

Hi,

Your POV is correct and your W's is wrong. 80% vs 20% is not her part. She is not 20% responsible for being selfish, manipulative and sneaky while having the A.

But you can't teach that to her. You need to let her see it. So find another example and bring it to her attention. Sometimes I would e-mail or give my then WS MB situations of other WS'. He could easily see how they were jerks and the like. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Then I would wait a while (few minutes, coupld of hours) and let him know he was just like them. I even prefaced by saying he isn't as 'speical as he thinks'. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Then would let him know his actions were down the same path as those 'jerk' (using his description). The point is to get them to acknowledge it and then use their own words against them. Powerful tool.

L.

Hi Shinethrough,

Your W is 100% WRONG!

Mrs. RIF started down this line of thinking when we first started MC. Our MC immediately put a stop to it and told her in no uncertain terms that SHE was 100% responsible for deciding to have each and every one of her A's.

Have you guys been through any MC? If not, I would strongly suggest that you find a good pro-marriage MC and start. You guys still have a huge elephant under your living room rug and you must deal with it before you can start rebuilding your M.

Semper Fi,

RIF

Jerry, that would scare me to death coming from a wayward because it is clear she does not take responsibility for her own actions. If she is not 100% in control of her actions, or doesn't believe she is, then this can happen again. Any other man can come along and force her to have an affair against her will. I honestly don't know why women think there is empowerment in victimhood. There is actually NONE.

Honesty is the first step in recovery, and it is clear she is not honest about her affair by refusing to take accountability for her own bad choices. HOW SAD.

Show me a WS who believes they are a "victim" and I will show you someone who still has a wayward mentality and is NOT recovered. The first sign of recovery is honest accountability.

And I don't even need to tell you that, Jerry. You and I are both former waywards, becuase of our alcoholism, so we know that the FIRST STEP to recovery is admitting the truth. The same applies to adulterers.

Jerry ~

This is a control vs boundaries issue.

You can not control her. You can not force her to see it your way. She does not have to own your truths anymore than you have to own hers.

Can you imagine if she got on here and posted, my BS keeps insisting that I am responsible for being abused, molested, preyed upon by a predator?

Now of course, alot of us, myself included, would tell her to stop trying to control what you thought about it, and we would do our best to talk to her about the problems with HER OWN point of view.

The same goes for you.

Her point of view is different. If you insist on being right, instead of respectful, then you are setting yourself up for resentment.

I agree 100% that she is responsible. But that's MY point of view, from my value system and my understanding and my growth.

And the fact that *I* think that she is responsible, or the fact that *YOU* think she is responsible will not change her own perception.

This is really hard....I know...because it is something I struggle with on a daily basis with my own husband. The more I grow, the vaster the divide between us on values. I want to shake him and say: I love you - I want you to see, to share, to enjoy what I am experiencing!!!

But I can't do that, anymore than you can force your wife to see it from your eyes. You are at different points on the path of growth and healing - the view is different depending on where you stand.

So, the question is not...how to get your wife to acknowledge your Rightness. The question should be...can you exist in a marriage with a partner that does not assume responsibility for choices?

One question requires her to act (change).
The other question requires you to act (choose / draw boundaries).

JHonestly, MEDC, it has crossed my mind a number of times, but when I regress to the bottom line, I am now, and have hopelessly been, in total love of my W for nearly forty years. We have been married for thirty seven and 1/2 years now.

sometimes, history is bigger than both of us. Sometimes, I accept that God has an ever bigger plan for the two of us, regardless of what has occured. I leave my ears and eyes open for His direction.

It will never be as it used to be between her and I.But I can live with this, and still have a life, regardless of the differrent nature of what it used to be.

I remain open to the future, which for the first time in my life, is so uncertain.

Thanks for your comments,

All Blessings,
Jerry

Jerry ~ does your wife attend Al-Anon?

(We codependent spouses of alcoholics are very very attached to our victimhood.)

And, if your answer is, that today you choose to stay in the marriage, then it is up to you to take responsibility for accepting your wife AS SHE IS, and not how you want her to be.

This is a very hard thing to do. I struggle with it on a daily basis myself.

[quote] [Jerry ~ does your wife attend Al-Anon?

(We codependent spouses of alcoholics are very very attached to our victimhood.)
/quote]

No she does not, might help her, I don't know about such things.

My FWW is adamant about how sh thinks, to her, there is no room for a different way of thinking. Her Father abondoned the M when she was about 10 years old.

She has issues that she has nevered dealt with.

Now they become my issues as well.

All Blessings,
Jerry

So ultimately, that is the real question, isn't it, and I don't have a real answer to that.

That is precisely the problem that continue to exist in our M.

In spite of POJA and RH, I am subject to her
dececeitfulness and the fact that she told me if it were not from me becoming infected with an STI, she would have NEVER told me what had happened.\

This leaves me nkind of hopeless.

All Blessings,
Jerry

Acceptance and boundaries and responsibility for your own choices are the only answer here.

You can not make her into the person you want her to be, you can only decide what persons you choose to spend your life with.

You can certainly choose to stay in the marriage, but then you can no longer be a victim.

HJI RIF, ye3s we have been through MC, I can't begin to describe to you what a total disaster that was. My W's IC agreed that she was a poor hopeless victim.


She has clung to those words as if her life depended upon them.

She has somehow exonerated herself from her betrayal. "She was a victim!!!!"

Thus, so am I!!!!!

I hate this [email]SH@@!!!![/email]

I am getting ready to give up!

And I hate thet!!

No help coming my way, it's all about me and her.
She doesn't understand me at all. Never will aparently.

All Blessings,
Jerry

BR,
Your entire post is completely reasononable to me, but you have to understand, it WILL NEVER BE REASONABLE TO HER!!


Thanks anyway,
Jerry

Clearly, she's a perpetrator (sic), Larry. You CANNOT make her see what she's done right now...she clearly doesn’t respect you enough at the moment for your opinion to mean anything...but you CAN firmly, but politely, refuse to accept her definition of the circumstances of her adultery. You CAN set your boundaries and make it clear to her you do not agree with her.

Predators only set up the conditions wherein a victim allows himself or herself to surrender. They do not, and cannot, force the surrender itself. Your WW made all the decisions leading to her adultery and she needs to own them. If she doesn’t, your recovery is stalled and won’t re-start anytime soon.

Value systems are value systems. Personally, I use the normal Judeo-Christian ethics as a guideline and I don’t much care about any other systems. Since you object to your WW’s adultery, I think you do too. Understand this: your value system used to be hers too...and then she went off on a tangent of her own choosing. She needs to figure out where, when, and how her basic sense of integrity dissolved into deceit, lies, and betrayal. Your refusal to accept your WW’s evaluation of what happened, coupled with some proactive words (and attitudes) from an MC such as RIF’s, she just might begin thinking hard about what she's done.

If you are not in MC with a good, tough, experienced professional who is pro marriage, Larry, you need to push that issue. It may be the only way you can salvage your marriage. Have you considered calling for an appointment with SH?

Thanks Longhorn,
But for the record , I am not Larry.

All Blessings,
Jerry

This is similar to what I told myself the first time my then-H cheated. He never truly was accountable for his cheating, there were excuses abound. Some of them victimhood, some blaming others, including me.

But aside from that, he said and did what I "thought" at the time (pre-MB) were all the right things. He acted remorseful for "allowing" himself to be a victim or "allowing" others actions to influence him to cheat.

Enter adulterous affair #2. The difference this time is I had MB and saw the wrongness in him, AGAIN, blaming me and using victimhood.

I don't have any advice for you, Jerry. Just know until a WS accepts full responsibility for their actions, they will always be left wide-open for cheating.

Jo

Dear Jerry...

My post has nothing to do with her "getting it".

I get that she doesn't get it and might never get it.

My post is to you.

I live with someone who is less than the perfect partner.

He is never going to be the man I want and need him to be.

I only get to choose whether or not I stay with him, as he is, not as I want him to be.

It sucks, it hurts, and it is what it is.

Boundaries and acceptance are the answers for you, for what you will or won't accept.

Accept what IS, and let go of what you think should be for HER.

Yep. I agree, but it is not going to make a diference in my life. In my estimation.this is done

I wish badly thaty it were different.

I am lost as to what I should to do from this point forward.

All Blessings,
Jerry

I'm sorry, Jerry. I don't have a clue where "Larry" came from. Perhaps I heard it from the TV where the KC-Houston game is on in the background. My apologies.