Did you read the quote? It says nothing about "percentages." So I will ask again, why would a "percentage" be relevant? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

And I will ask again,[3rd time now] did your H marry you knowing that you didn't love him? Does he know you don't love him now?

YOUR words: "vast majority".

Vast: Very great in size, number, amount or quantity.

Majority: A number more than half the total, more than 50%.

Vast Majority: Way more than 50%.

YOUR assertion: (defined as "something declared or stated positively, often with no support or attempt at proof."): that the VAST MAJORITY of WS's rewrite history, fabricate justifications and demonzie their BS's.

MY repsonse: You have no way of knowing or proving that the vast majority (way more than 50%) of WS's do this.

--SC

BTW, I "heard" your questions the first time. I don't see how they're relevent to this discussion re: Fog Speak.

(edited to remove sarcastic comment)

Oh what the heck... I still don't see the relevance... but here are your answers:

No, he did not know when we got married. I did... on some level... but couldn't even admit it to myself. I know that sounds looney. What can I say? I was pretty messed up and didn't even know it.

We last discussed my lack of feelings for him a little more than a month ago.

--SC

Not "looney," but FOGGY. You apparently felt you loved him when you married him or you wouldn't have married him. This is a classic trait of affairees to rewrite feelings years after the fact. That IS the fog.


And you would be the least objective person on this thread qualified to make any such comment. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

There is no way to know or prove. I've always viewed the fog exactly as it sounds. It's an analogy to describe something that obscures your view and thus distorts reality. So when one wonders if something a WS says is fog speak, you have to determine whether it is consistent with reality. If its not, its fog speak.

While we can't prove anything we generally have three ways (on this forum at least) to form an opinion about the reality of a particular situation. We can be implicitly told, we can infer it from the additional details provided, or we can determine it heuristically, which is something akin to pattern recognition. i.e. in other situations like yours, when the WS said that, it was fog speak.

Yes, I have seen some posts advise a BS to ignore something a WS says because its fog speak. Maybe it is premature or incorrect to determine something is fog speak.

Does that matter? I mean isn't the advice that follows that determination going to be the same. Plan A or B if the A continues. Build a romantic intimate M using PORH, POJA, etc, during recovery. Get a plan. Set a time frame. Do what you can do.

If my WW tells me "I never loved you" and I determine that isn't fog speak, what changes in my plan? I should just throw in the towel? Not very MB like. I should address that in some way? In what way would that be different than meeting EN's, avoiding LB's, etc? I should accept that my odds of recovery (or whatever one would call it) are longer? Okay. But I don't think anyone should decide whether they want to fight for their M based on their odds of success.

Amen, rprynne. Well said.

Fog is like LOVE, in that we know of its existence, but cannot measure it. We can safely say from watching behaviors that most parents LOVE their children, which would be an accurate generalization. We don't need a study to know this is true.

It is the same with FOG. It cannot be measured, but we have a sufficient number of instances to draw this conclusion. Screaming for "proof" about something that is not measurable is a red herring exercise in denial.

That statement is so outrageous, I barely know how to respond.

Oh, please forgive me. You didn't really love him but just "couldn't admit it to yourself." Until years later after your affair[s], right? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

hmmmmmm, haven't I heard this story somewhere before? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

MelodyLane,

What makes you think you know anything at all about SC's life, love, or lack of love for her husband?

People marry for various reasons; love doesn't always play into it. Surely you are not so naive to think otherwise.

Beowulf

Beowulf, sc TOLD ME in her post that she didn't ADMIT to herself she didn't love him then, and she certainly didn't tell her H that, so it is apparent she did. I am only going by what she says.

What she is describing, however, is a classic rewriting of history we see from wayward wives.

Melody,

As my MC told my wife and I during a particularly emotional session, BOTH parties rewrite marital history. The WS tends to think the marriage was worse than it was, and the BS tends to think the marriage was better than it actually was. Two stories, one truth.

My wife certainly didn't have to rewrite any of our marital history. I gave her enough reasons to leave me; she didn't need to fabricate any, that's for sure.

Beowulf

Beowulf, no doubt there are almost always problems in any marriage that breeds an affair, however it is a classic trait of a wayward mind to rewrite history in order to RATIONALIZE the affair. Instead of altering themeselves, it is much easier to ALTER REALITY. Dr. Harley recognizes this as he understands the mental state of ADDICTION and has coined this as FOG.

Is your MC educated in the dynamics of adultery? Most are not, unfortunately.

It's the height of arrogance to tell someone else what they feel/felt.


And sometimes it is the result of distance, perspective and reflection.


SC is not a WW, and to the best of my knowledge, she has had an affair, not affair[s]. She is a FWW who is being honest. On this forum, there are many times that I see honesty as being labeled "fog".

I have known people who married for security, who married because they are scared of being alone, and were actually ambivalent about their partner, who married because of pregnancy. Not everyone marries for love.

I don't have time for this nonsense.

People practice self deception all the time. That's how they convince themselves it's okay to have an affair, right? Or that they're not really alcoholics! It's also how I convinced myself to marry my husband. Why is that such a hard concept for you to grasp?

I am not W. I have maintained NC and gotten completely through withdrawl. There is no fog for me anymore. There is no rewriting going on. It would serve me NO purpose at this point to maintain that I have never really loved my husband, uless it were true.

You think it's EASY for me to admit this?? You think I'm PROUD of the fact that I married him under false pretenses???

That's exactly why this board is NOT representative of FWS's AT ALL. B/C those of us who try to HONESTLY face our crap... even though it doesn't fit the mold... are hounded... our words twisted and mutilated until it's too frustrating to continue.


rprynne,

I'm too annoyed to properly respond to your post. re: your comments about whether or not something is or isn't fogspeak... as you can plainly see from this thread... there are some statments that will be labelled as fog speak (at least by some posters) no matter who says them... and no matter what point in their personal recovery they say them. "We know 'I never loved you' is fogspeak b/c we've seen it before... and we've seen it before b/c we know anybody who says it is foggy." What kind of reasoning is that?????


re: your comments about what difference it makes... don't you want to know the truth about your own life? I thought that's what all BS's want... the truth. It might not change your chosen course of action... but I would bet there are at least a few BS's who wouldn't want to fight those odds.

over and out (for now)

--SC

She told us herself that SHE did not admit TO HERSELF she did not love her H, so I am going by what SHE SAYS:


She said that very thing herself.



And oftentimes it is the result of FOG.


She has admitted here that there was more than ONE, and I doubt that you have any way of knowing if she being honest about anything. We only know what she tells us and her track record is not good. I have never seen any sign that she is a FWW, she says the same things here that an ACTIVE WAYWARD says. She relates to WAYWARDS, not RECOVERED waywards. I don't know the reason why, but the mentality is wayward, not recovered.


And that is fine, but that is not what she said. She said, when asked if she told her H she "didn't love him" when she married him, that she had not even admitted that to herself. So, either there is some serious rewriting of history going on here or she DEFRAUDED this man into marrying her by not telling him the truth.

Mel,
Do you hear yourself?

"She didn't admit to herself that she didn't love him... therefore she must have loved him."

So...

Until you admitted that you were a drunk... you really weren't one?

PK, there was a ONS 11 years ago. I'm also 40 now for the record... and my H is also a year older than my sig line indicates.

SC,

You will have to forgive Melody for her confusion this morning.

She is arguing with both you and me on two different threads, and she is losing her ability to reason effectively.

Beowulf

Did you actually read my statement?


You said you "hadn't admitted it to yourself." So are you saying now you FELT YOU DID NOT LOVE HIM AT THE TIME YOU MARRIED HIM? Which is it? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

huh? Whats up with the cheap shot, beowulf?

I have always regarded Fog Speak to be basically a mad scramble to RATIONALIZE decisions, behaviors, etc that fall outside of the WSs OWN established ethical code and bend reality to the will of the distorter.

History rewrites exist for everyone and they happen all the time. Things that happened shift in prominance and are colored differently than you would remember when the rest of your psyche lines up differently.

I agree that not everything that comes out of a WSs mouth IS Fog Speak....that gives waaaaaaaaay to much assumption that all WSs are people who believe in fidelity, exclusivity, honesty, etc as a general rule and are merely having some sort of crisis.

People can be entitled without being foggy, they can be dishonest [emotionally or otherwise] without being foggy and so on and so forth.

The trouble is...that IF you are dealing with someone who has radically changed their behavior AND there is the possibility that they haven't been honest with you until now...there is no way to judge or measure which reality was really real.

So here's some good news. You don't HAVE to.

There is no point in LISTENING to any of it...it will only confuse you and draw you into the madness.

You stay on YOUR property, you be respectfull, you do not enable behaviors that are destructive, you do not allow cake eating, you show self respect, you protect your assets and outcomes...and really, what ELSE could you do?

Make them a time machine? Make one for yourself?

Life isn't fair.

If someone lied to you for 30 yrs and you lost 30 yrs of your life to that lie there is NOTHING you can do to retrieve that time.

The best option for you is to grieve the loss, and figure out why you were willing to believe something that wasn't true. Find out what YOUR cooperation was/is and work to change that.

You have been around for your whole marriage.

You know what complaints were voiced and which were not.

You know whether you blew it off, diminished, invalidated, simply COULD not change the elements involved in the complaint single handedly blah blah blah.

You'll have to deal with your OWN issues of disinterest, emotional dishonesty, or whatever it was that allowed conditions that support an affair to be "ok" with you.

For example...you may have to rethink that traveling job you previously OK'd. Your perspective is no doubt going to be changed now that you have sampled some consequences to not setting up your life to profit you. You have learned that you aren't different and special EITHER.

You aren't, WS isn't, OP isn't.