It's hard to gauge his actions. Each time he made a confession we did better, he acted better and more loving, more accountable, etc... Then things would slowly start to slip. I don't want that this time and neither does he.

We've spent most of today arguing and I'm feeling really depressed right now. Being sure that we are recovering and staying on the path to recovery will be hard because at one point we had a period of 8 YEARS where he did not have an affair. He said he had chances and temptations, but he didn't take them. At one military school a female soldier literally grabbed him and started kissing him. He says at first he kissed her back once or twice, but then he pushed her away and said "no, I can't do this. I'm married and I love my wife". He was surprised that she actually backed down and even respected him for it. He felt so good about that episode. I think that made him believe he'd licked his problem. Maybe he decided since he was "cured" he could let his guard down. He knows now that's never going to be the case. I just had really thought that we'd put all that in the past and he'd begun to face our problems maturely, but I know now that I was wrong.

I'm not easy to live with. I have been having episodes of depression off and on for two years and I don't want to be back on medications, but this whole thing may drive me back over the edge. I can't spend the rest of my life on antidepressants, but I'm just not coping well with this at all.

Mojodiva and RIF, do you really think there's hope? I know you don't know my husband, but from your own experiences? So many people on this board are of the vehement opinion that I need to leave him NOW, and sometimes I'm not so sure they're wrong. I just don't know what to do. Three months with the counselor (our initial commitment) probably won't be enough to know one way or the other. Heck, if he could backslide after 8 years, three months is nothing.

Merry,

Is WH on ADs?

I ask because what I hear you saying is that slipping back into old mindsets and reactivity kicks in the infidelity. Sounds like you've studied and both know what healthy marital boundaries are and commit to holding to them...until you don't.

An AD has been of great benefit to my DH. They help him to stay aware of his anxiety (the underlying issue to his addictions) and to choose differently. They don't change his personality or his moods, he says; seem to help him to not react on his compulsion and stay aware of his choices.

I know ADs are often recommended for the BS; I wonder if they wouldn't be as effective in for a WS.

My DH also has been in IC with our MC for three years. I know that's made a huge difference in his life experience, as well.

I'm in the camp that all things are possible through Jesus Christ. And I hold what you choose to do is as essential to your life experience as his is to his own.

Eight years...wow. That scares me, too. I can understand this would be cumulatively larger than ever before, I think, for you. Thank you very much for being here, sharing your experience. I believe I would think I was cured, too, after eight years.

Now, I'm thinking differently.

What did you promise yourself you would do if he cheated again after the last A? Could your depression be in part from your own self-betrayal, your own broken promise?

What would you guys do this time, if you chose recovery, which you didn't do the last time?

Do you believe him staying faithful from fear of losing you would keep you safe, or losing who he really is? Would you consider you do not trust yourself to not slip over time, back into old habits/routines?

I have no clue today if my DH will cheat tomorrow. Or choose not to, like he has for the last 1000 days. Same for me. I'm focused on my stuff...verifying his actions...hearing his stuff. I don't know tomorrow...I know we are capable. When I slip, I state..."I'm thinking old, feeling old, hearing old" and we reconnect, to me, recommitting to right now, affirming what I really want.

He has done the same.

We are allies, not enemies. That changed before and I stay vigilant that I don't look at him like that again. Doesn't mean anything except for today, we have a great marriage.

You won't be a bad or wrong person either way you decide...I believe owning your decision will change your future...it's yours, not dependent on him. Depends on you. And what you choose from, inside.

LA

I told myself, and him, he'd better be sure the next one was the one he wanted to be with forever because I would kick him out and file for divorce the next day.

Yes, I am upset with myself for not following through. I've taught him a bad lesson - he can cheat and I piss and whine but in the end I do nothing about it. I'm sure my depression has to do with that as well as my fear for the future. I feel like a huge fool. I wasn't even all that surprised this time. Isn't that awful? I was hurt, I felt pain and betrayal, but absolutely no surprise at all.

Instead we went to see our priest who recommended counseling with Catholic Charities, to stay with a counselor within the church. I don't know why I didn't kick him out except that I do know that I am afraid of being alone, unemployed and unable to support my kids and in bad health right now. I think there's more, though. Some part of me still loves this man and some part of me (the idiot part) hopes we can work this all out if we both take responsibility for our own behavior and work together.

Being raised in the Catholic Church may have something to do with it, too. The weird thing is, 2 days before he confessed to me he suddenly decided he HAD to get his first marriage, when he was 18, annulled. They were married in the church, but never had it annulled when they divorced so he and I didn't get married in the Catholic Church. He wanted an annulment so we could get our marriage blessed in the church after 22 years. It took 24 hours to get ALL the paperwork together and turn it in to the tribunal. That's almost unheard of, but it happened for us. I thought it was what God wanted us to do.

Now I don't know if I should go through with having our marriage blessed in the church should his annulment be granted. If we don't make it and end up divorcing, it is highly unlikely the tribunal will grant us an annulment. Both of us would be going into having our marriage blessed in the church knowing his history of infidelity and my decision that next time I will not try to reconcile. Sometimes being Catholic can be very hard, but I believe marriage is a sacrament not to be entered into, or given up on, lightly. Maybe that's why I stayed this time, I don't know. I do know I'm a complete and total basket case who can't let go of yesterday and focus on tomorrow and I see doom in everything he does and says. I'm such an idiot.

Yes, I'm still married. Mopey is my wife.

I know I'll never let anything like what I've done happen again. It's one of the most terrible things you can do to another person. I'm supposed to be the one protecting her from harm and comforting, not causing it. I have boundaries that will not allow another woman to fill the emotional needs I have that are reserved for my wife.

There have been several things that have helped me recognize what I've been, and I don't want to live my life like that anymore.

I've been living in a fantasy world for many years. I've sought escape from reality through many things. Hobbies, reading, video games, porn, affairs, drinking, drugs, religion, AA. All of these things I chose over intimacy. Both with myself and my wife. I've lost many great years as a result.

I don't think I really realized my problem until recently, through a book called "I Don't Want to Talk About it". I always considered I had an "addictive personality", but didn't really understand what that meant or why it might be the case. Shifting from one distraction to another is a way I hid the problem. In a nut shell, I used outside things to distract me from myself and intimacy.

Another source that deals with "distractions" is recoverynation.com. Their focus is on sexual addiction, but the principles are the same for other problems of intimacy. The lessons there are geared towards helping us remove hurtful patterns and replace them with healthy, value based living.

I use terms other than addiction because it potentially turns people away that could otherwise find answers. Many folks think they "aren't that bad" and ignore possibly helpful information.

I have no idea whether any of it applies to your husband. It's something only he can identify in himself.

I do believe men need a group of like minded men to hold them accountable. Preferably, ones that have dealt with the same problems.

I hope some of this helps and none of it is viewed as an excuse. I made bad choices which I am accountable for and owe compensation. I knew better, but chose self-centered pleasure instead. The false payoff for that, is more guilt to stuff and hide.

You both may want to read "How Can I Forgive You?". Not only does it break many false beliefs (IMO) about forgiveness, it also lays out a guildline for how to achieve and give it.....or learn acceptance.

I don't think you're an idiot. Just someone that wants a good relationship with the man she loves and isn't ready to give up on it yet.

Nothing wrong with that. Just realize it's a choice that you want, independant of what he's doing now. At some point in the future, you may choose differently.

"Boundaries in Marriage" is a book I'd recommend to anyone. Preferably, before they marry. It's not too late to start.

Things have been hectic here so I'm finding it difficult to take the time to say everything I'd love to say to you. I also know that I hate going back to that place, so I am avoiding that, too . <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The thing that worries me the most about your husband is that you said that he can't promise not to mess around again? That's enough reason to walk away. I had never received a promise like that from my FWH until this last time (about four years ago) and I finally got an adamant "I do NOT want a divorce" from him a well. Without that promise from him I wouldn't have stayed. HE had to be in a mindet of protecting his marriage at all costs.

If your husband can't even tell himself he will never hurt you in that manner again, he isn't worth your effort.

You deciding to stay is less about him and more about you. Can YOU accept what he has done in the past and let go of it? Can you take TODAY as a new day? Can YOU make your home a sanctuary and learn to stand up for yourself? Can YOU change yourself?

I wish I could be more help, but without those basics -- acceptance and moving forward-- you are fighting alosing and hurtful battle.

Hi MC,

I always think there's hope! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I didn't have MB when I first found out... Mrs. RIF had all of her A's during our first three years of M... I see all of the posts that recommend leaving the M if the A or A's happen within the early years... the only reason that I stayed early on was because of our oldest daughter...

You have to decide what you are willing to live with. For me, Mrs. RIF knows that if she strays again, that there won't be another chance... that isn't a threat, and I don't "hold" this over her head... it's just a boundary that I set and WILL enforce if she breaks it.

I really do think you need to decide what you are willing to put up with... your H now thinks that he can "do good" for as long as he can stand it... and if he strays again, that you'll still take him back.

The fears that you mention about leaving your H are real, but I feel that the damage of staying with a serial cheater are much worse... Your H needs to know that he's had his last chance, or at some point down the road, his feelings of entitlement will overcome his fear of losing you...

Semper Fi,

RIF

I know that I AM the roadblock right now. My husband says I've seemed preoccupied the last few days and he's right. I can't stop thinking about him with the last OW.

If he's in a good mood, I get indignant thinking "how dare you be in a good mood when I'm hurting so bad", or something like that. If he wants to joke around with me I don't really respond. I'm not able to just say "ok, I made a choice to try again and I have to look forward, not backwards". I know that I HAVE to do that if we are going to work this out, but the threat of another affair, even years down the line, looms over my head like a 10 ton anvil.

I know there's never going to be a guarantee that he'll be faithful to me and that if I choose to stay I have to set the boundary that next time is the last time and STICK TO IT. All I've taught him is that there are no consequences to his actions. The guilt got to be too much for him so he confessed to me and then went to church and confessed to the priest. Now he's hunky-dorry. God has forgiven him, he's done his penance and it's as if it never happened - for him.

What he really did is dump it in my lap and now I have to deal with it while he gets to move on with his life. I can't let go of the resentment and the anger. I think primarily it's because I perceive us slipping back into some of the old patterns. We aren't doing our Retrouvaille dialogues every night anymore. He blames being on third shift. I don't see him praying or reading his Bible like he was before, although he's still going to church on Sunday. When he does try it seems half-a**ed to me, although he says he feels like he's trying very hard.

He's going to counseling, he's opening up to the counselor, he's answering my questions when we talk. He's being accountable for where he is and who he's with when we're not together, etc... I don't know what more I expect from him. I know, though, that a period of good behavior doesn't mean he's cured. I know he doesn't want it to happen again, but he never WANTED it to happen, according to him. He's promised he won't let it happen again, but he's done that before, too.

If I can't get past my feelings and start trying to be the wife and mother I need to be, we might as well call the lawyer right now. How do you get past it? How do you let it go and just concentrate on the choice you've made to try again and to be the best you can be, regardless of the possibility of being hurt again? I just feel like I can't joke around with him or be in a good mood because that's being disloyal to the pain I feel - I'm absolutely insane, apparently. Can anyone help?

Windstopped, my husband really needs to talk to someone like you whose been there and has made the right choices and committments and whose priorities are now in the right place. I think talking to RIF would help him a lot also. Would either of you consider talking to him directly? I don't think he'd be comfortable coming onto the board knowing that I've aired so much of our dirty laundry here.

Hey merrycat,

I'd be glad to e-mail with your H.

*** Edited ***

Semper Fi,

RIF

Both of you would probably get a lot out of "How Can I Forgive You?"

He has work to do to earn your forgiveness. It's not just something that auto-magically happens. It involves some work on the part of both of you. Going to church can become as automated as going to work. Working on building character will become apparent, if it's happening.


Discover your patterns and change them. Don't protect him from consequenses.

"Boundaries in Marriage" can help with this. Good book so far.


So don't joke around. Tell him you're hurting and need some time to yourself.

The bottom line, IMO, is you are fearful of more pain in the future and it doesn't appear to you that things are changing. If things are changing, great. It takes time and needs a realistic view point of progress. MC can help with that.

Step back and watch actions. See if he's digging into what may have allowed him to do what he did.

You don't have to instruct him, nor should you. Only need to verbalize what you'd like to see as a result.

Thanks for the vote of confidence. I feel like I'm making progress in discovering and working on my character growth. I have a life time of work though. I still struggle.

Have you determined that your husband needs to talk to someone, or is it a desire of his? Only his authentic desire for something like that would be useful. Otherwise, it's more parenting on your part.

He may like to check out recoverynation.com, if his laundry is of concern. You can make a different screen name and post in a manner that helps him remain anonymous.

He will need to get over his embarassment and guilt in order to face issues. I think that has been the last big jump for me....recently.

I'm sure there are many men in his church that would be good mentors. Nothing can replace developing a friendship of that sort. Considering the number effected by infidelity, there may already be a group doing just that. I don't feel I have the time or results in my life to become involved at that level right now.

RIF, thank you very much. I will give my husband your email address and tell him he can talk to you if he'd like to. Since you are military too, he may feel you can understand him. I don't know if he will contact you, but it'll have to be up to him.

Windstopped, I understand your feelings and I appreciate you being honest with me. Regarding recoverynation.com: he has a REAL PROBLEM with the word "addiction". He says his is NOT an addiction. I doubt I'll be able to get him to go there with me. We've asked our counselor about it, but I suspect she won't delve into that with him until we start having individual sessions next week.

He may not have an addiction. I don't believe I do. I know I've not been living my life based on values though, and that's one of the main goals of the lessons there. Seems his values can get skewed from time to time.

It's not up to you to "get him to go there". It's up to him to seek knowledge and growth. I simply offer that as a source that might be helpful. If you lead him to everything, you'll never know whether he has the desire to work on it himself. How would you feel if it turns out he's doing some of this stuff just to appease you?

I REALLY recommend looking into the boundaries books. They are biblically based. References to scripture throughout to back up the ideas being taught.

Have you thought about doing the "partner" lessons? I've heard it's a good source for learning boundaries and removing yourself from his choices. Learning to live for yourself and not be reliant on anothers actions.

Do you mean the partner lessons on RN or MB? I've started the partner stuff on RN, but I am in the midst of SO MUCH ANGER right now, I'm having a hard time caring about doing it right. I am such a fool. I know he's going to do it again, it's just not knowing WHEN. It's like waiting for the wrecking ball to hit in the cartoon at just the most inopportune moment. I don't think I'm going to be able to get past it this time. I don't think I'm going to be able to forgive and I don't think I am going to be able to get over the depression and try to move forward.

I'm mad because it seems like our counselor feels like I need to make more changes than HE does. He has gone to RN but hasn't done anything with it yet. I don't know if he doesn't want to or what. He's still really hung up on the word "addiction" even though I told him to forget that word for now and just work on the problem. I think he's sincere in wanting to change, I just don't think he's capable of it.

I hate myself right now and I know I'm ****** to live with for everyone in my life. I just can't seem to keep going beyond the basics necessary to function every day. I've lost my faith in God, I've lost my faith in everything. I've hit rock bottom, but I don't see a ladder or any way up.

Sorry I have taken so long responding. D20, fSIL, Mrs. WS, and myself took a week off and spent Thanksgiving in the VA/DC area.

I have no experience in dealing with what you're going through. Only that the anger is normal and the expression of it is something to keep under control. It can be more very damaging to your relationship.

I was refering to the lessons on the RN site. They're designed for this type of stuff.

I can understand your fear. He needs to be working to help you feel safer in your marriage.