I have seen several posts here on "emotional" infidelity. I guess I would probably fit that also. In the early years (1st 10 or so) W & I did a fair amount of recreational activities together, primarily socializing and cards etc. I had outside physical activities which met my other recreational needs. Then as time went by, W drastically reduced socializing and cards together as a couple. Socializing to a large extent was met by other people outside of "our" circle and were hers (job related). At this time, there was a drastic reduction in affection and sex. It was difficult to even get a response to a hug. I continued to meet physical recreational needs outside marriage. I stayed together and loved W and kids and took care of them (chief cook, bottle washer, maid, etc.) About 8 years ago another woman and I began playing racquetball together and for many years have been mixed doubles partners. We also like to rollerblade and would like to go hiking and do other things. W now is upset that this OW is my partner for meeting my recreational needs. But W did not want to be a part of my group. About six months ago W confronted me and we began to talk (and began counseling). I explained my needs. Going thru counseling has brought out how hurt I really am at the lack of affection, and now the anger is surfacing. After the talk W began to improve affection and sex. She cannot meet recreation need (physical limitations). W wants me to drop my friendship with OW and reduce or eliminate racquetball. This is a major source of my recreation. I have not and will not go beyond friendship with OW even though I have feelings for her. I still love my W but she cannot meet my recreational needs, and has again stopped/reduced the affection and sex. I try to include her at least for the after racquetball sessions (going out for pizza, etc.) but W usually does not attend. I am scared to lose what I have, but on the other hand I am and have been a very lonely man and I am not sure I want to continue down this path. Even on vacations if I want to explore or go snorkeling, hiking, I do it alone (and in the past when she could have gone with me she did not). Our activities together were to go shopping which is what she wanted to do. I know this OW sounds like an affair to some but she and the rest of the crowd provide a needed outlet for me. Any comments and suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks. Oh, and the kids are out of the house now too.

Hose A:<P>If you are really serious about wanting to make things better, then the OW has to go. It may be "friendly" now but it will get worse before it gets better, if you don't put a stop to the relationship now. Lonely, join the "Y" play raquetball with a male partner. I suspect that you are tired and bored with the relationship with your wife and you are trying to justify your relationship with the OW based on what you are not getting at home.<P>Think about what you have and what you can or can not afford to lose, then proceed with caution. Your marriage didn't get to this point all at once and it won't get fixed all at once. Drop your outside interests and concentrate on your marriage for a while. It might just pay off better in the long run...

Man oh Man ... that's an affair just waiting to happen. Trust me on that one! Especially if things are "not so hot" at home right now. This OW is filling a need for you ... and you should be looking to your W to fill that need.<P>You are going to HAVE to find a new r-ball partner ... if it makes your W uncomfortable, then you have to stop it. Reverse the situation ... if she was spending recreational time with a guy, how would you feel about it? Don't lie to yourself, you'd not like it at all!<P>Somewhere there has to be something you BOTH like to do. Find it!

HoseA<BR>First of all I completely understand your need for recreation. My H has it. His passion is what he does. Relationships, although important, are secondary. He loves, but doesn't define himself by his relationships. I mean if asked to describe yourself, you would probibly state your interests first. I would state my roles, "I'm married, three beautiful girls...etc." This was a pretty hard pill for me to swallow. I think I competed for years with my H's recreational intersts. Now I see they are seperate from his love, but he wishes I had the same passion for everything he did. I thought it was enough to support it, in some cases it is, but I can see how "doing stuff together" makes him feel closer to me. I need to be a little less concerned about breaking bones and a little more concerned about meeting the individual needs of my H. In return, I think he understands me better and does his clueless best to return the favor.<P>But of course the OW must go. She is at least an emotional barrier in your relationship with your wife. She is not just your playmate, you admitted feelings. Now if your wife senses that, how affectionate do you think she feels? She is hurt and scared. And if your emotional energies are elsewear, how objective are you about your wife. Chances are you stopped focusing on her good points and have magnified her short comings.<P>Regardless of the mistakes she has made in the past (many probibly out of misunderstanding rather than out of disregard for your feelings) you are accountable for making your marriage your primary relationship. That will involve sacrifice. I think your wife requests are reasonable. If you can figure how to keep the raquetball without the old crowd that probibly on some level supports you and the OW's relationship, then come up with a plan. But you say...my needs aren't being met. I'm betting hers aren't either, but either way, whatever changes you make within yourself for the good of the relationship will by themselves change the dynamics of your marriage. She may be willing to make more changes than you may think.<P>I'm also betting that your communication may be part of the problem.<P>This is where "For Better for Worse" is more than just a phrase. And although the kids aren't in the house doesn't mean they will not be affected by your marriage or the break-up you seem to be considering.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Let the OW go Hose...you cannot have both without it blowing up in your face and devastating your wife. You are at a point now where you can avoid serious damage to your marriage...it's up to you.<P>------------------<BR>Joan <P>"Turn your wounds into wisdom..." That really cool black gal who was on Oprah all summer.<BR>

Thank you flipper and Maya. The OW and I are good friends. She and I both agree that we can do nothing but be recreational partners. Neither one of us will take it any further since that causes too much pain and suffering on all parties. But we both agree that we can remain good friends. We refer to each other as twisted cousins because we have the same sense of humor. That aside, in order to be with W in the evenings (W is asleep in the morning) I go to the club and work out in the morning. OW is usually there and after weights and other workout we usually play racquetball. If there are other people there to play racquetball we may get in some doubles or cutthroat. I have tried to get numerous male friends to come in the morning but to no avail. This makes it difficult to cut off interaction with OW even if I wanted to (there is only one racquetball club in town). One or two weekends a month we get together for doubles racquetball which involves anywhere from one to three couples. It is good group fun. And I have invited W to join us afterwards but she usually doesn't. You are right that OW does fulfill a need, but my W cannot fill that need. I wish she could so I would not be in this dilemma. I guess part of it stems from W lack of affection and ignoring me in the past and not wanting to do recreational things with me. Now that she can't she wants me to stop doing things which I have been doing for many years. I am not willing at this point to do that. I have asked her to try and find things we can do together but there are damn few things since she cannot be physically active. I have also tried to come up with some and at this point it is getting together with mutual friends and playing cards. I guess if I eventually work through the pain and anger from the past I might be able to come to grips with the loneliness of having to do things together. As a man, most of my recreational activities, even as a kid, were with a girl or woman. That is one of my emotional needs. It is not the same with a guy. As one of the therapists has said, "you have been a martyr in your relationship with your W, but you do not have to be." One other comment, she never minded me spending time with one of "her" female friends, but she does mind if they are mine. I did try to get her to befriend the OW but she did not want to. Enough for now, looking forward to more comments. Thanks.

Since I'm sure there is much you are leaving out, you may probibly have given alot to your marriage. Hopefully this counselor is being taken out of context, but it almost sounds like she is not really supporting your commitment to your marriage.<P>However, a need that can not be met by your wife should not be allowed to met by another woman. That's exactly what makes it inappropriate because whether you want it to or not it takes something from your marriage and gives it to another woman. That's just not right.<P>Come on, you don't need another woman playmate, you want one. <P>You probibly feel like you have been selfless and have given up a lot over the years. You probibly have. Still if you want your marriage, you have to keep giving.<P>You can not be good friends with woman and be a good husband.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Hose A:<P>You're not listening are you? The OW has got to go, Period. It's not a matter of what you want, it's a matter of what you need. And you don't need another woman for a playmate. Change clubs or start playing golf or parchessi or something.<P>I'm a guy and I do guy things. I used to do guy things with other girls. It didn't work for me and it won't work for you. The fact that you already negotiated a non-involvement treaty with the OW only shows how close you are to breaking the treaty and your vows. <P>Don't ask for help if you already know what you are going to do, OK? Lots of folks here really need the help<P>Flip

HoseA ..... please go read my thread titled THOUGHTS ON NEEDS .... and try to apply it to YOUR life right now.<P>Your focus is wrong ...

Thank you, FHL. I think this counselor was looking at me and not necessarily at my marriage. I think the counselor was picking up on what I was saying and the amount of hurt I have. She also was looking at my needs and that I am not happy, and have not been for a long time. She heard what I have been doing to try and stay in the marriage and take care of my W and us.<BR>I believe I have been a good husband and as W said in counseling to our joint counselor there was nothing bad she could say about me until now. She said I was always there. Even our daughter who is in town has said the same thing, that I have always been there. <BR>As to being good friends with a woman and being a good husband, I believe it can be done. I still am there for my W. I love her and continually let her know I do by my actions and words, and I shower her with affection. She improved her responses for a while but has reverted to being nonresponsive. I have many other female friends and we always give affectionate hugs whenever we meet, and sad to say most of these are more of a hug than I can get from W. Most are "our" friends and so that is okay with W. One of her friends and I used to get together and play cards and games whether my W was there or not, and she blessed it. Again, she is a very dear friend to me, and probably now more my friend than W's, but it is okay with W. <BR>I guess I just want to be happy and I want to be able to continue my "friendships."<BR>

I'm sorry, you're NOT being a good husband, if your wife doesn't WANT you playing sports with ANOTHER WOMAN and you are IGNORING her request.<P>That's NOT a good husband. Sorry.

Maya, where do I find you thread "thoughts on needs"? Thanks.

I concur....DON'T DO IT!<P>the last line in your original post<BR>" the kids are out of the house"<BR>Sounds like to me like you know what you want, but you are torn by your responsibility to your spouse.<P>Could be wrong...just how i see it.

HoseA, do a search on my name and it will come up in the list.

Hose A:<P>I was good friends with my W's best friend. My W blessed that too, until her friend got too friendly with me. Now I'm in this forum trying to see how to get my stuff together once more. I thought I was pretty smart and I just knew that the OW wasn't going to do anything to jeopordize her friendship with my W. Surprise, surprise, surprise the OW decided that I was more interesting than my W and she professed all of the love and devotion she could muster. I almost got sucked in, but not quite. Of course it was too late as far as my W was concerned. Now I am paying for something I never even got to think about doing. But because the OW thought of it, I am in the doghouse and my W has gone through her own personal hell. <P>Stay away from OW and in particular stay away from your W friends.<P>I've been married nearly 30 years and all the children are gone so I know how easy it is to think that you can only be happy outside the home with "your" interests. <P>Have you ever explored any of her interests?<P>Be careful you are heading for a deep pit if you don't heed the warning signs now.<P>Flip

Hose...first of all if any of your replies sound a bit angry or aggressive, please understand we are all in or have been through pain and we can clearly see (in our collective opinion) you are heading for disaster. That you are hear and trying to work all of this through is a good thing and for that I applaud you. Disagree, but applaud.<P>Anyway, if you are really honest to yourself, you will probibly admit you are head over heals in love with this OW and your marriage now has become a duty, obligation and maybe even a burden. The OW may have only been a factor in your maritial problems, but is like an elephant in the living room in terms of solving them.<P>You wife may have been wrong not to join you in the past (or misguided). However, the past can not be changed...and although your feelings of anger may be legitimate, they are no excuse for having an inappropriate relationship with another woman.<P>Society may see what a great guy you have been and urge you to meet your own needs...after all you deserve it. Your group of friends, also recreationally inclined probibly encourage this thinking.<P>It all depends on how you define what a marriage is and what you owe to your vows. If define yourself as a good husband if you are a good caregiver physically and a good provider and you are kind and "nice", then your friendships can probibly coexist (assuming this was OK with wife, which it is not).<P>However, if you define marriage as your primary relationship where you forsake all others and cleave only to your mate for your most important needs, then there is no room for this type of friendship no matter how you paint it or hard you try to justify it.<P>You just may have to grieve some losses.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

I have no intention of leaving my W. I love her. All I am saying is I want to continue to be able to play racquetball as I always have. OW has many friends besides me, male and female. I am her partner for racquetball. OW hikes with other friends, male and female. She rollerblades with her friends. As a part of morning exercise, we also rollerbladed together, and a couple times with one of the guys at the club. <BR>W has only one primary interest and I have no inclination to sew. We do have a few other interests but those for the most part cannot be done until I retire (travel) and even then they will not fill all the time. I do plan to volunteer in the schools once I retire. W also has many friends with whom she interacts and I cannot be a part of that. I still want to be there for her in the future, but I am not willing to sever all ties with my life.<BR>OW and I have not expressed undying love and devotion or anything along those lines. We just enjoy playing racquetball and cards (both very competitive). <BR>So many people say that man and woman cannot be friends. I do not agree. If I cut off interaction with every woman whom I consider a friend, that is not how I want to live. I consider myself above the other "animals" in that I have conscience and control over my actions. I also have other female as well as male friends for hiking and rollerblading. <BR>I do appreciate the feedback. I would not be here if I wasn't looking for other perspectives on the issues, as well as suggestions on how to work on it. <BR>W does have severe physical limitations so the things we can do together are very limited. I am still looking for ideas.<BR>Thanks.

Hose A....<P>Red flags and bells ringing are everywhere!<P>Most betrayers have no intentions of cheating on their spouse. It sneaks up on them because of inappropriate friendships. In your case, your friendship with this OW is inappropriate. You have already admitted that you have some type of feelings for her.<P>If this friendship annoys your W, it is most likely because she feels threatened by it, and has every reason to feel insecure.<P>If you want to be a good husband, like you say you are, then think about her feelings, and how this makes her feel. Don't you realize that you are hurting her by continuing this inappropriate friendship with this OW? Is this friendship with this OW really worth risking the survival of your marriage?<P>You are going to therapy to work on your marriage, yet you are still doing things that harm your marriage.<P>Please think hard about what everyone is replying to your situation. All of us are here because of infidelity. You have a head-start and still have a chance to avoid the consequences resulting from an affair. Please do the right thing. Break off your friendship with this OW and start focusing on your marriage.

I'm afraid that Hose A is not listening again. He is so interested in his own well being that he doesn't have an interest in his W. He can't see the hurt he is causing his W because he is too absorbed in his own self gratification. Too bad, that's how most of us got in trouble. Why can't people learn from the experiences of "others"? Why must they always learn from there own bad experiences. Will we never learn.<P>Flip

OK...having no intention of leaving wife, and putting all your emotional energy into your marriage are two different things.<P>There is wiggle room between loving your wife and honoring your marriage, too.<P>If you have not professed love with OW, you can bet your friendship will catch fire if you ever do. Then it will have "just happened" or like others have said, snuck up.<P>Ironically before I was married, a few of my very closest relationships were purely platonic friendships with men...although looking back, I probibly made it known to at least two it could be nothing more and the third I definetely was playing with fire, and I tearfully dropped him when I got married. I still count a man a worked with for ten years as one of my best friends and we are close as couples. And as close as we were, we never discussed personal problems about our spouse. Nothing has ever been questionable for either of us...and now that we no longer work together, we are never alone anyway. <P>So I understand and believe in friendships. With me I'm basically a safe person lots a people seem to be drawn to.<BR> <P>Now that my H had his affair, I have a completely different outlook. It is just not worth the potential pain.<P>Your wife legitimately feels threatened. You have a choice to disregard her feelings and continue to do what you do, or modify what you do to exclude any one on one, (no contact prefered) with OW.<P>I think you want another option and there isn't one.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13