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#2017383 01/29/08 05:08 PM
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QUOTE-Dr. Harley

LOVEBUSTERS PAGE 248
“Those with a history of addiction usually have a difficult time learning to be thoughtful. The self-centeredness they perfect as addicts stays with them even when they’ve overcome the addiction What looks like thoughtfulness often turns out to be manipulation----they appear to be thoughtful to get their way.
True thoughtfulness accommodates the feelings of others for their sake.
It is a willingness to give up behavior that is offensive to others and create new and appealing behavior. You create romantic love when you do something that is deeply appreciated. It’s preserved when you avoid behavior that is deeply resented.”

I feel really awkward writing this.
Several other threads on this board revolve around alcohol/drug addiction at this time.
For the past 3 years or better I have always lurked hoping to see how they came out. With my work schedule I would see them come up and follow for a few days and then loose them or they would drop off the board. This winter I have some time so I have been able to post and follow a few.

I’m gonna go out on a limb with this.

I could write pages of what has happened in the past. Most of my posts concerning the past would look much like the ones seen now when its obvious there is alcoholism/drug addiction in progress.

To “us” the viewer we can see it so clearly.

To the poster the denial (concerning the addiction) has set in so strong and the belief that they can “SAVE the OP and M” is so strong that they are not emotionally able to see clearly or receive clearly suggestions from those of us who have been through it.
The affect of living with an addict happens so slowly-it is cunning –baffeling and powerful-It usually always leave us going “how could this happen”?
The normal “gauges” that would kick in for most people that sense “things are not right” become so off and distorted from living with an alcoholic/addict that receiving healthy suggestions seems foreign.

Four years ago I would have posted with all the obvious signs of living with an alcoholic wife and how the behavior became my “NORMAL” . My DS now 24 also lived in the house and drank irresponsibly. I ALLOWED THIS TO BECOME “NORMAL” BECAUSE I DID NOT SET AND ENFORCE HEALTHY BOUNDERIES.
He now has his own apartment approx 5miles away and a good ft job.

Four years ago Marks Post would have made no sense to me what so ever. You have to scroll almost to the bottom of the page.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...art=13&vc=1

Plain and simple you on the MB’s board would have picked up on it quickly with a few questions and replies. Just like everyone else told me and everything I read “the change had to come from within me”.

Four years ago had you posted to me and I did not want to hear what you said (leave/seperate/raise her bottom/D) I would have been off to the next “FIX” for my alcoholic and M.
Another book, another site, another program. (Plan A-disaterous Plan B-would always be broken somehow- Divorce Busters 180-wouldn’t even notice)
I would avoid you if I did not like the message that you delivered to me or if you suggested fixing something within myself that I had control to fix or try.
A lot of people around me tried to help. I became obsessed with “fixing my M” but all the change had to be with her. What COULD I DO that would make her change? INSANITY…….

After 17 years of sobriety (did not work a program-put a cork on the bottle) I found myself feeling like I was cracking up and overwhelmed by the situation. I was so tied into and obsessed with fixing our situation that I risked loosing my job-finances were headed towards shambles-AO/DJ/VA-was everyday M life.
Several friends suggested Al-Anon. After going to four different locations I was able to walk in the door. I just couldn’t go in up until that point.
For the first year I did very little talking. It was too painful to hear my story coming out of the mouths of other people who did not know me personally.
The stories-not the same-but the situation is. Much like here at MB’s.

From that point on I began to grow. I went to AA for the first time. I actually completed the task my group counselor suggested when I was discharged-Read the Big Book and go to meetings. I actually got a sponsor-Worked the steps with a sponsor and continue to today.

At some point (2004??) my W started an A with a “party buddy”. He supported her drinking in every way. How long the A lasted I don’t know. She has never been willing to discuss details. It was extremely hard to tell the difference from the alcoholism. When she would drink she might be home at 8 o’clock passed out or it may be closing time. I never knew. The A and alcoholism were as one.

Extreme Independent Behavior with both situations.

As this was happening boundaries were starting to be built and enforced. My problem at first was going to extremes instead of seeing the middle ground where the real goal was. SEE MARKS POST

My goal was to get her into an inpatient alcoholism treatment even if it meant the end of the M. This whole time as weird as it may sound she was going to AA meetings and staying sober 5 days 15 days sometimes 30 days. The M at that point was in extreme withdrawal.
I got her parents involved. They knew very little about the situation. Every chance I had I would invite them to stop at the house when she was passed out or extremely strung out.
They had no clue how far it had gone. Together we persuaded my w to go to treatment. In Dec of 06 she entered and has been sober since.

I have found my way to change by working my programs, using MB’s articles/books for M advice and to be open to change.

I have always lurked in and out on this site but now my WW has 13 months of sobriety and has gave up her A (I AM SURE) about a year ago.

She has acknowledged the A and has apologized sincerely to me three times.

I find myself at the point where It may be possible reverse out of the Al-Anon teachings-protect yourself emotionally from the alcoholic behavior-
To MB principles. I have carefully let my guard down in small areas checking to see if it was safe. If it is not safe I cover back up with my defenses.

At this point now she is starting to ask how we can possibly get M going again. I am cautious b/c her sobriety seems strong but a lot of LB’s still exist. Over the course of time here mine have gone way down. By no means am I perfect.

The story is similar in 1986/1987. Alcohol use by both of us was a major factor in A’s then. There was no real recovery for either of us at that time.
I had several 1NS when drinking and even after I became sober woke up to her in the middle of an A. NOT PRETTY>AT ALL I started an A then. REAL MATURE duh??????

I would like to use the MB program for us although she has been resistant to MC or any type of program. Iv’e tried to introduce MB’s ideas and found resistance to them also.

My real question for this board is

Are the stories out of the LB’s book the only success stories there are with MB’s concerning alcohol/addictions M’s?

Is there anyone out there who has lived a share of their life emmeshed in alcoholism/addiction and ended up in MB recovery???

Would anyone be willing share a success story???

I hope some feed back or questions may trigger new ideas that I may be able to use.

Rocky-Formerly Known as Chris


Me 49 –
WH 1987
A/CD treatment 8/1986
DS 24
DD 14
Married 25 yrs
WW 43
EA/PA –1986/1987 A Ended after 1 ½ yr seperation-NC w/OM for 4 months-Me N/C w/OW for 3 mo after W asked me to give her up
Mutual agreement to get back together
A/CD treatment 1988
EA/PA 2004?—10/2006? Mixed w/alcohol relapse
Treatment 12/06 W-Just wants to leave A in the past-“WE” know what to do
Me-Houston-We have a problem (we need to work on) here

Last edited by nesre; 02/15/08 03:39 PM.
nesre #2017384 01/29/08 05:18 PM
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Is there anyone out there who has lived a share of their life emmeshed in alcoholism/addiction and ended up in MB recovery???
G-d I hope so, because that will be my story and I can't believe I would be the first.

I can't concentrate totally on what you are saying, but I will be back as this could be part of my story.


BS 52, FWH 53, Married 1-1-84
D-day 5-14-07, WH moved in with OW
Plan A 9 months, DARK Plan B 3-17-08 until 3-2-09
WH and OW broke up 1-09
Started over 7-09
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I am a recovering addict/alcoholic with almost 21 years of sobriety. However, up until 5/23 of this year I hadn't been in AA meeting for over 14 years. And I lived in a dry drunk. My WH has 18 years sobriety and hasn't been to a meeting in that long a time as well.

I say I am recovering because through this devastation I have found myself back in the rooms of AA and realized that I am an addict/alocholic/all around additive person. My life was unmanageable and I lived a crazy existence.

While I completely but into the ADDICTION/AFFAIR concept, the hardest part is that this one is cunning and baffling because the signs are as obvious as if someone was using. My WH is in complete denial about life. He is searching for something that he won't find in anyone but G-d and working a program. He couldn't because he is an addict/alcoholic.

I HATE THIS DISEASE.. I think in some ways I wish he were using so it would appear more obvious. The impact that this A has had on our family is worse than any drugging or drinking we ever did, and we destroyed ourselves financially.

I wish you well on this journey you are on and want to follow along and support you if you like. This is a tough road, but thankfully G-d is in our lives if we seek him and walk in FAITH that there is SOMETHING BETTER PLANNED FOR US.


BS 52, FWH 53, Married 1-1-84
D-day 5-14-07, WH moved in with OW
Plan A 9 months, DARK Plan B 3-17-08 until 3-2-09
WH and OW broke up 1-09
Started over 7-09
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Hey Rocky FKA Chris, thanks for posting this. I'd been wondering where your 'story' was at. I was sure you had one, as you're usually dead-on, but I didn't find any evidence.

"My story" is sure to be a "success"...whether my M survives this or not. SIL reminded me today that H has been living this way since he's 14, and I'm the first person who ever got in his way - a little bit - and I may be the last judging by his mom & sister's attitudes. But my story will be one of SUCCESS because I made a promise to my kids: that alcohol will no longer rule or ruin our lives. And I don't take promises lightly. And I DON'T lie to my kids.

I'm going to Favorite this one. Thanks again for posting!


LIFE IS GOOD
Julie2U #2017387 01/29/08 06:01 PM
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"My story" is sure to be a "success"...whether my M survives this or not.
I am so watching this unfold and cheering you on girl....


BS 52, FWH 53, Married 1-1-84
D-day 5-14-07, WH moved in with OW
Plan A 9 months, DARK Plan B 3-17-08 until 3-2-09
WH and OW broke up 1-09
Started over 7-09
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Yes, you can balance a good Al-Anon program with Marriage Builders, but it requires a very solid foundation in the 12 steps.

The problem that Dr. Harley points out about addiction and the codependency movement, is that when detachment is practiced in a situation with healthy people, it harms the relationship.

Where dysfunction reigns supreme, however, it is a different story.

I live with an active alcoholic who has not sought out recovery. I am happy and while my marriage can't be called a perfect MB marriage, it is far stronger and more solid that it was in the 10 years before his affair. I walk a fine line of detachment and boundaries, avoiding love busting and meeting emotional needs. It requires very clear understanding of what is a healthy need that should be met and what is simply enabling the addiction. It requires patience, and the ability to meet your own unmet needs in a healthy way. This is why you must have a very solid grounding in the appropriate way to work the 12 steps, lest it undermine your MB program or vice versa. In many cases, especially where there is abuse and dangerous behavior, it ought not to be tried.

We've been in marital recovery since 2001. My husband is on his own journey when it comes to alcohol.

Here is my thread on the topic: Lemonman - an answer to your ?


~ Pain is a given, misery is optional ~
BrambleRose #2017389 01/29/08 06:38 PM
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We've been in marital recovery since 2001. My husband is on his own journey when it comes to alcohol.

This is interesting to me, and I'm glad you've shared in this thread & I will read the thread you linked too. In an Al-Anon meeting not too long ago, one of the "leaders" or whatever he is, the people who "head up" the meetings, was telling a new-comer she should go to such-and-such meeting cuz there's 2 women he thinks she should meet. They both live with active alcoholic husbands & "they're very happy".

Now, I know Al-Anon isn't about THEM, it's about US, and how WE deal with THEIR problem. That said, I found it very odd that 2 people (and you too) live with active alcoholics & are happy. It made me wonder...once again actually...was I wrong to put H out? Obviously the ultimatum I gave him was quite harsh & the likelyhood of him saying, "OK, you're right, I'm going to check in to rehab today so we can stay married" (knowing he's been miserable w/me too) was very very slim.

It's just weird. I don't judge you, or think I'm any better or worse off than you, I just find it strange you're sticking with an active alcoholic. My mom spent my childhood and now my adulthood with my actively alcoholic dad, and I'm here to tell you it never was and still isn't good. And even if she got into Al-Anon (she's never been) I can't see how she'd be "happy". So, I hope I didn't offend. Just very hard for me to understand.


LIFE IS GOOD
Julie2U #2017390 01/29/08 07:08 PM
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Julie, why did you boot him if you were so happy and things were going so well? If that is the case, then you definitely made a mistake and should invite him on back. On the other hand, if what you told us is accurate, and he has been abusive and you have been miserable in a very dysfunctional relationship, then maybe you should stick to what Dr. Harley advises, and that is PLAN B for a practicing alcoholic.

As a recovering alcoholic with 22 years of sobriety, I will point out a simple true fact, and that is that a practicing alcoholic does not love in the normal sense of the word. Our first and only love is alcohol which counts out a marriage partner. We do not have normal emotions and reactions like non-alcoholics.

It concerns me greatly, Julie, to see you second guess a well thought out decision about your marriage. I know you miss your H and are looking for reasons to bring him back so I can understand why you are having second thoughts. If you believe you can live with him AS HE IS - and worse, because alcoholism is a progressive disease - then you should bring him back. But you should not have any illusions that you can change him. You will no longer have a right to complain, because you will have become a volunteer, not a victim.

Can you accept him AS HE IS?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Julie2U #2017391 01/29/08 07:13 PM
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What to Do with an Alcoholic Spouse

Introduction: Alcohol addiction is a clear example of what I call a Love Buster because it causes so much suffering in marriage. Besides being physically and emotionally harmful to alcoholics themselves, addiction is also harmful to those whose lives touch them. Addiction makes people insensitive to the feelings of those who care most for them, and they will stop at nothing to feed their addiction. I am witness to many people whose lives have been ruined because they married alcoholics.

Alcoholics commonly engage in their most painful habits while under the influence. Acts of infidelity are common. The fact that he or she is drunk at the time is no consolation to a grief-stricken spouse.

Women often suffer cruel physical and emotional abuse from their alcoholic husbands. Even when he is not overtly abusive, he's often disgusting in the way he talks and behaves when he's drunk.

<snip>

One of the first things I do when couples see me for counseling is to evaluate them for drug and alcohol addiction. If I feel that either is addicted at the time, I refer the addicted spouse to a treatment program. The Love Buster, drug or alcohol addiction, will prevent them from resolving their marital conflicts because it controls them. It must be eliminated before marital therapy has any hope of being successful.

My job as a marriage counselor begins after successful treatment and sobriety. If the addicted spouse refuses treatment, then I direct the unaddicted spouse to Alanon or some other support group for spouses of alcoholics. Sometimes, I encourage an intervention.

That's what I learned to do after discovering that an alcoholic is so much in love with alcohol, that while in the state of addiction, there is no way for them to consider their spouse's feelings whenever they make decisions, a necessary condition for a great marriage. Alcohol always comes first, even when it is at the spouse's expense.


entire article at: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5048a_qa.html


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


MelodyLane #2017392 01/29/08 07:28 PM
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Chris, to answer your question, I am not aware of any success stories where the addict/alcoholic recovered and then went onto recover the marriage. That doesn't mean there aren't any, only that I know of none.

This is not surprising given that only 10% of alcoholics ever recover. Dr. Harley might know of a some, but I personally don't.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


MelodyLane #2017393 01/29/08 07:31 PM
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Mel, are you mad at me? Have you been keeping up, but growing more angry? I've wondered this, not just now.

You & I both know I'm not going to bring him back. 90/90 is the VERY LEAST and THIS YEAR, I'm sticking to it!! Yes, I have weak moments - very, very sad, weak, woe is me, pity party weak moments. And my strong moments are just as strong. Yes, I DO love him AS HE IS...between Fridays/binges...but it makes me hate me! So that ain't happenin'

I'm sorry for the thread-jack. I shouldn't have posted my inquiry prior to reading the thread she linked, which I've been reading since I posted. That was wrong of me. I'm going to bookmark her thread. And hopefully, as I recover & learn in Al-Anon, I will learn to read or listen before I post or speak!! Although I'll admit, even as I read her posts, I am happy for her she's found peace, but the peace she has isn't peace I want - it's not for me - I'm in too deep and I PROMISED my kids it's over. BR, again, I don't mean to offend.

So once again, Mel, I'll ask you to PLEASE stick with me. I need you. You know I do. I'm having a good, strong day today. But I'm sure to fall again. I just know it.


LIFE IS GOOD
Julie2U #2017394 01/29/08 07:42 PM
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Julie, thanks for the clarification. I strongly believe that the strategy you chose for your OWN marriage is the right one for you. And sure, I could be wrong, but I am willing to bet you are not prepared to accept him how he is or accept living in an abusive, dysfunctional marriage.

And no, I am not mad at you at all! {{{{{{{{{JULIE}}}}}}} I have been watching your thread and seeing that you are getting EXCELLENT support from other Alanons like Chris [nesre] and sickofthis. I think you need to talk about the day to day and settle into your new routine, and I think they are better equipped to help you there. I am still here!

When I read your thread, I often think, 'I so wish she lived by me so I could help her.' <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> It makes me sad for you that your parents are not more helpful.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


MelodyLane #2017395 01/29/08 07:57 PM
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You are a great kid, Julie! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


MelodyLane #2017396 01/29/08 08:00 PM
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Julie, you missed the entire part of my post where I said that what I am doing requires a firm grounding in the 12 steps.

You can be happy whether the alcoholic is drinking or not.

I am happy. My life is not perfect. Happiness is a choice and my responsibility - for which I do not depend on someone else to change so that I can have peace and happiness.

You are not even close to having a firm grounding in the 12 steps. It took me years to get to where I am at.

In no way should my post be interpreted as a encouragement for you to stop doing what you are doing and to bring your abusive alcoholic husband home.


~ Pain is a given, misery is optional ~
BrambleRose #2017397 01/29/08 08:38 PM
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I didn't miss the point. I skipped ahead & asked you a question cuz I don't get it. I've since read more. You're right - my 12 steps could use some lovin'. That they will get, let me tell you...

Misery is a choice I reject. Misery is a choice I reject. Misery is a choice I reject. Misery is a choice I reject.

(Your words! (To live by!!))


LIFE IS GOOD
nesre #2017398 01/29/08 08:57 PM
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Dear Nesre,

You asked:
"Is there anyone out there who has lived a share of their life emmeshed in alcoholism/addiction and ended up in MB recovery???

Would anyone be willing share a success story???"

My husband and I are a success story. Some of there Veterans out there may remember us from posts back in 1999 - 2001 . Its been a long time! I stop in every once in a while and haven't been on here for a long, long while.

I don't know how far back the message board goes but if it goes back that far I'll see if I can find our 'success story' to repost for you. We've been recovered for close to 10 years now. Long story short, it was answered prayer.

God bless,
AW


Me, BS Him, Alcoholic, FWH H did 180 in '01 Recovered, blessed marriage now Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things unseen. Hebrews 11:1
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Hi AW,

Congratulations on your recovering success. I hope you can find your success story. Could you also please post it or link it to the Success Story thread (link in my sig line)?

Thank you,
Ace


FWH/BW (me)57+ M:36+ yr.
4 D-Days: Jun-Nov 06 E/PA~OW#2 (OW#1 2000)
_Ace_ #2017400 01/30/08 09:40 AM
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Hey Nesre!

I will help in any way that I can! I don't know much about alcoholism, but you are in the hands of the best with ML and others.

Hope you have a great day!


Peace,
LaLa

FWW(me) 37
BS 38
DS 9 & 5
PA 7/06-8/06
Dday 2/17/07

Fogapalooza-My Babbly Beginning
My Story
Resonance #2017401 01/30/08 11:08 AM
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To all who posted

From the bottom of my heart I appreciate it.
I will respond.

Don't ya just hate it when you go to work and they keep interupting your important personall stuff!!!

Rocky


M 29 yrs
DS 28 DD 18
Me 53 FWH FBS
MTA signed 5/11/2011
D final 5/16/2011

Free.... and going wherever the big guy wants me to go......
nesre #2017402 01/30/08 11:11 AM
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Thanks for posting your story, Rocky. It helps me to see where you are coming from too. And its painful for me to read...

I obviously can't answer your question-- but you already knew that <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

RIM

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