Okay Todd, then isn't it about time to stop talking in "general" terms, i.e. "core beliefs," and LIST precisely what those core beliefs are to you and your "problem" with each of them as they pertain to your recovery of your marriage?

No one can offer any potential help in this area if they don't know specifically what you are meaning when you lump them together in that general term, wouldn't you agree?

But is also patently obvious that they ARE the stumbling blocks, the "walls" if you will, that you need answers to in order to begin removing them and allowing recovery to proceed. Are you open to discussing them, or if not with me, at least with others on MB who would like nothing better than to help you and Cruise to reach a Recovered Marriage?

God bless.

Finally Learning-

May I ask you some personal questions seeing that you also are a FWW??

-Where is your R with H now?
-I did not see any dates on your posts. Could you give me some dates. Like d-day mostly.
-What have you learned about yourself through all of this?
-Has your H forgiven you?
-Have you forgiven yourself?

If you are not comfortable answering these, I understand. I am thinking that I might learn a lot from you if you are farther out or in a different place then we are.

Thanks,
Cruise

I was re-reading this thread and this jumped out at me. It has been said here that no one has the right to determine how long is enough for someone else to recover from an A. I get that, however, I look at this particular statement and it occurs to me again, that what I am asking of todd is to make the decision to choose to "begin the healing process" not to be fully recovered. I think sometimes some here think that I am frustrated because he isn't healed yet. Quite the contrary, I am frustrated because he won't commit to even beginning the process.

Cruise

You know I can't believe some of what I am reading here.

I do think the hurt can go away - it has for me.

I think I have seen the first inkling of where Todd is at here.

I know I was frustrated for the longest time before I knew my wife really GOT IT.

A big part of recognising that was in her posts and emails to other WW's that just blew me away and really demonstrated she did get it.

Apart from telling Todd you "get it" Cruise, what have you actually DONE?

But even to hint that he should have started or decided or whatever is still you enforcing your timeline on him, right?

Look, I'm not saying you have to be happy with it. But is it working for you to determine the rate he approaches this?

The questions about his spelling out what "getting" entails in concrete terms is a very valid question.

after what i posted todd jumped in.....he gave you the answer of what he needs. he needs to feel you fully understand that you get what you did to him and your family.

I AM NOT SAYING YOU HAVENT TRIED.(please re-read what i just wrote....) i am saying some how you missed the mark. what jumped out to me was your surprise at comparing this to what we bs's have. your question of "if" its that bad how can he ever forgive. IF?????? cruise, maybe you never will understand the pain and i pray you dont, but to use the word if in that statement just really stabbed at me. it may be simple things like that that also stab at todd.

he can forgive. we all can.

todd.....type out here what exactly you want and need from her. cause she doesnt know. if she is actively trying to learn what you need is way more than most get...especially after 4 yrs of limbo. don't make me swing that hammer your way...lol

Todd,

If there were no children would you still be married to cruise?

Every person feels things differently. I used the word "if" because I did not make the assumption that every BS feels this way. (referring to the post that todd shared)I was merely stating that if this is truly how he feels (when possible other BS's don't) then can he recover??

I need to be more careful in my choice of words. Obviously some (todd does this too <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />) pick apart words and miss what I am trying to say! Todd was trying to help me understand better where he is and I just needed to ask the question.

Cruise <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

BK,

Rather than have her rehash all 4 years of what she and Todd have both done, maybe you might want to go back and read up on it in their previous posts.

You'll get a better idea from there than to have her try to condense it all. You'll also get Todd's POV as well.

S&C

I have read their posts for years and posted to them as well.

Whatever Cruise is doing is clearly not what Todd needs. This was an interesting revelation here today.

BK,

Then you know what has been done by both sides and what their MC has said. Who, as Todd has told us, "knows more about their situation than any of us do."

BTW - a M involves 2 people; in order for it to really recover BOTH of them need to choose to heal and make efforts to do so.

S&C

S&C I'm not sure why you feel the need to lecture me on this situation.

I think Todd AND Cruise need to carefully consider what Todd has actually said on this thread today.

That's true...but ONE can screw it up all by themself.

cruise, i am MORE than happy to answer your questions. look for another post from me either tonight or first thing in the morning. i don't know if you know this but i have watched you two throughout the years, and i can identify with you.

regarding my history, click on my name to get the details. it's not pretty <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

cruise, i've been talking to you in my head all last night and now this morning. i do have much to say, but i cant until i get time to myself. i'm thinking that will be about 1pm today! just wanted you to know.

Hi Cruise,

so the more i think the more i find myself wanting to say!!! i was originally hesitating, i get so tired of being blasted. but that is a dumb thing to think about if my words can be of any help.

let me start out say something...

my marriage is not perfect nor a poster child for MB. DH knows about the book His Need, Her Needs as well as Surviving an Affair but choose not to read them. he knows about the website, knows i still post some, but that is it. although i went to IC, we never went to MC since my confession. I would not call us recovered BUT our marriage is working enough on some level that we are reasonable happy.

what i write here is 100% my perspective, the only one i can give you. i will at times tell you what my DH has directly said to me as well as what i just believe to be true.

so now lets break things down into different topics.

my next post will be on "getting it"

ya know i think before i post my thoughts on getting it, I should answer your direct questions first:

-Where is your R with H now? I guess i covered that to some extent. i ask him at times is he happy, he says yes. do i feel extremly close to him? no. do i feel reasonable close to him? yes. we have our problems, we are so much better at talking about them. as i post more, i think you will get a better picture of us.

-I did not see any dates on your posts. Could you give me some dates. Like d-day mostly. hopefully you clicked on my name and saw my history. so second and last d-day was 10/2004.

-What have you learned about yourself through all of this?
not sure i can answer that one very quickly. i had LOTS of issues!!! i guess i mostly learned just how emotionally immature i have been the majority of my life (i am 44). possible the best lesson i have learned is to not let my emotions rule my behavior. i have a very wide range of emotions (i'm italian!). the other most important thing i have learned is that commitment means forever! i grew up with too many cases of divorce, it was too common for me. i was able to get to a spot where divorce was something i really wanted to do. sometimes i worry that i might get to that spot again once the kids are grown, if DH and I don't end up growing closer to each other. but i only worry about that on bad days. normal days, like today, i am very strong on the concept i am here till death. maybe that is a terrible thing to say, that sometimes i see myself getting back to thinking divorce would be the right thing to do. but i'm being 100% honest with you. sometimes i do think of divorce down the road. BUT that is a minority of the time and i do believe the % is shrinking. so that is a good thing.

-Has your H forgiven you? when ever that is spoken about (and it has not been spoken about much) he will say yes then very quickly follow it up with the fact that he has not forgotten. i have gotten to a point where i just don't focus on that. i do my best and that is all i can do. i used to want to hear the words. (ok, and typing that just made me cry, so i guess i still would like to hear the words) i remember so clearly the day RIF changed his signature to read "Her: forgiven". i guess my reaction to what i am typing right now means i don't really believe he has totally forgiven me. i suppose if he has said he does, i should believe him, but i think i need to hear it with more emotion and without the followup comment in order to truely have those words hit home in the way i would like them to. (i would bet that if he read what i just wrote, he would be surprised.) but i do believe he is doing his best and so i accept it.

-Have you forgiven yourself?

another tough one!! another one that bring major tears so i guess not enough to be able to answer with a plain "Yes, i have".

but i think i have gotten better at not beating myself up. i do acknoweldge that i have grown.

maybe what DH says is exactly right on the money, maybe i have kinda forgiven myself but being unable to forget the pain of self-disapointment, and of intense regret of the pain i have caused him is still very sharp.

i am hoping time will help.

ok, so now my next post will be about "getting it" except i am late for something now so i'll have to post later, sorry!!

Cruise, it seems obvious to me why your BH is not recovering.

It's because you clearly do not grasp what you've really done to him.

No BS ever recovers unless and until they feel certain the WS KNOWS and UNDERSTANDS the torment they put their BS through by having an affair.

That's because if the WS doesn't understand it, what's to stop them from doing it again once the BS has shown they can forgive it? MANY HAVE DONE IT AGAIN FOR EXACTLY THAT REASON - "She/he got over it once. She/he took me back. It must not have been that big a deal, so I thought she/he could get over it again."

Many BS greatly fear forgiving the WS for exactly that reason. It is NOT safe to forgive a WS unless and until they have shown they Get It, and statements like your quote clearly show that even though you are trying, you still do not really Get It.

And to address the quote above - yes, it's possible other BSs don't feel the way your BH feels. They feel EVEN WORSE. They're the ones who leave, divorce and never look back.

It's hard to believe that you honestly think other BSs just aren't so upset by their spouses having an affair, and you can't understand why yours is.

I admire you for being here, Cruise, but the above paragraph is why your BH never feels any better.

You can trust me on that.
Mulan

i don't know but when i read the stmt quoated about i think more along that lines that Cruise is wondering why todd does not choose to divorce.

i don't think she doubts what she has done has caused him intense pain.

mulan, is that what you think the line you quoted is saying? that she does not understand the level of intensity of his pain?

i think it might actually be the opposite, given that pain is still so intense after this much time, why doesn't he choose to leave.

i can relate to what Cruise is saying, does that mean i don't get it either?

what i wish Todd would do is to be very specific about what actions/words cause him to have the judgement of Cruise that he has. i mean, after all, he is judging her. she is saying one thing, "yes Todd, i get it, i know what i did was terribly hurtful" and she follows it up with remorse and it certainly seems her actions show her remorse. todd has said she is doing all she can. so why is he judging her so harshly??

does that make any sense?

we all say words mean nothing, it's actions that count. and yet here is someone being told you are doing all the right actions and yet your words make me decide you do not "get it"

i'm sorry i can't post more right now. but i will be back eventually

FLT2H,
I have read your posts and TRULY appreciate your thoughtfulness and sincerity. Todd and I are going to watch a movie and chill for a little while. I will post to you tomorrow!!!

Mulan,
FLT2H is right (I believe) about the things that I am trying to say about todd's pain and the extent of what I have put him through. I will also write more about that tomorrow!!

Till then,
Cruise