Forgiveness....

I've been wrestling with this for some time now.

For me, at least at this "early stage" (going on 2 1/2 years), I still feel as though I first need the slightest sense of awareness of the nature of the damage done, the selfishness involved, and at the very least, the tiniest bit of remorse from WW, as opposed to the bluster and anger I get in its stead.

Schoolbus,

I too am a very spiritual person, and get more than a little annoyed at those who quote scripture as though it is the direct "word of God".


FH, I think we can all agree that the Bible has gone through many, many iterations and countless translations over the years. To take direct quotes without acknowledging that, in fact, they are IDEAS, rather than the ACTUAL WORDS of a deity, has lead to much suffering in this fragile world.

In fact, I've taken for granted that our entire understanding of the world is limited by the very nature of our human wiring, and to claim that we understand God's intent in anything more than a rudimentary way is at once arrogant and ignorant.

Case in point...my WW was brought up Catholic, so you'd think she'd at least understand the nature of sin. However, the only thing her religious upbringing has given her is the need to practice a greater degree of self-deception in order to assuage her own guilt.

Forgiveness...

As of now, I can't see pissing on OM if he was on fire.

As for WW, I'm just now in the stage where I've allowed myself to stop making excuses for her actions and have been awash in a flood tide of realization and anger at her.

Something that had to happen...for ME.

It will subside, no doubt, but for now it must run its course.

Will I eventually be able to forgive?...I sure hope so, because I do NOT want anyone else to have that kind of power over me.

L2F

L2F, today a friend of mine confided that she had been repeatedly sexually abused by her grandfather, cousins, and an uncle, as were her sisters. As stunned as I was, I was more stunned by her next comment, that she had forgiven her grandfather, because, in her words, 'she had to, to live with it.' I didn't feel appropriate asking for clarification, but it has left me unsettled all day. Did she really forgive him, did she really achieve some level of peace and calm and serenity with what life hands her, or did she 'accept' it because she has to be around him all the time - a large, extended family from which she can't excuse herself, and who won't do anything about the abuse, though they know about it. What a quandary.

This may not help you, but it seems a little appropriate to me, though not on your scale of pain. When I grew up I was very poor, but went to an affluent school. I got one new outfit every September, and everything else was hand-me-downs or Good Will. I never saw a beauty shop til I graduated high school and my hair frizzed out to here. My mother wore no makeup and couldn't guide me, so you can imagine what I looked like. I was one of those kids everyone made fun of. I was the teased kid. I listened to all the snide remarks, I saw all the looks down the nose, I had no ammunition with which to defend myself - they were right, I was a joke.

One day, I learned to deal with the pain of rejection and humiliation by realizing one thing: the people who would so debase me, who felt entitled to hurt me and laugh about it with their friends, THEY were the ones most unhappy with their lives. It's only people who can't experience peace and serenity themselves, who hate themselves, who feel they need to hurt someone else to drag themselves up. It gave me empathy for them. I didn't like them any more, lol, but I empathized with them, and wished that they could find the peace they needed so they wouldn't walk around miserable any more.

Your spouse had a need, a pain, of some sort, that drove her to find this resolution, no matter how disasterous. It was a solution. A bad one, but a solution she grabbed to fix her pain/problem/issue. Of course it doesn't excuse the selfishness and hurt she caused, but I learned long ago that knowing the hurtful person's own pain helped me, if not forgive them, at least understand them. Maybe forgiveness lies down that road.

L2F - in deference to MEDC's desire to limit "religious" talk on this thread I will not respond other than to offer two points for your consideration:

1. If you'd like to discuss these things further I will be happy to join you in such a discussion on another thread, and

2. The words quoted were either said by an apostle writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit or were the direct words of Christ, who is God incarnate. Quoting, as in reading back the testimony in court, is the ACTUAL WORDS. When the writers quoted Jesus, they recorded HIS words, which do indeed contain the idea that He was revealing to us.

God bless.

Yes, you did misinterpret. I have no problem with you posting on this thread and contributing to the topic as it was presented.


I NEVER said that Scripture supports that position. I do not possess the wisdom of God, nor do I claim to...I do not see into the hearts of men.

As for quoting you, I will pass. It will only lead to more banter about this. I will just accept that I read you wrong and wholly expect that you will keep this thread on topic moving forward without any need to add commentary regarding my faith or status as a Christian.

Thanks.

Yes, CP. Empathy. I've said to WW that I DO have empathy for her situation, yet no sympathy. Kind of an "I feel your pain, I understand, yet it's your cross to bear, not mine."

There can be no forgiveness while there's still anger...that must run its course first.

FH, thanks for the offer to discuss the "word" further, but my words regarding the value of "quoting" something someone said that someone said that someone said over 2,000 years ago pretty much cover my opinion on the subject...

L2F

One comment was that there can be no forgiveness if there is still anger.

For me, the only way the anger went away

was to forgive.

The cure for the anger was in the forgiveness. It is counter-intuitive.

By releasing the person of what I thought he "owed" me:

apology
restitution
remorse
regret
jail time

And accepting that those things would NEVER happen, NEVER come to me

I came to understand that the actual closure for me was in that acceptance. It gave me "the end". The idea of releasing the debts - that which I thought was owed to me - led to the concept of forgiveness.


So for me, forgiving means that I am releasing the other person from what I believe they owe me. A full pardon - they are not expected to make restitution. I do not expect "consequences", because in true forgiveness, there is not tit-for-tat. It is not a negotiation in my book.

It is a gift.

I forgive.

The end. There are no conditions to be placed on it.

It isn't

I forgive if you _____________ and if you _____________.


Or, I can forgive when the other person does this or that. I don't see that happening for me.

I kind of see it as something that I do as a part of life, because it makes the moving forward to healing possible.

I forgive.
I can take back the next years of my life, and no longer am I tethered to this event, this need to chase after restitution which is NOT coming. Because realistically, can anyone actually give me back, in any way, what I have lost as a result of being raped? Or being cheated on?

No.

There is NO restitution there. Certainly, my H can show that he feels remorse and regret. He can change his behavior.

But that does not erase what happened, and it does not give me "restitution" for it.

My only solution, in my own life, has been to fully release it through true forgiveness. Recognizing the weakness and fallibility of the other person, and understanding the depths of their souls and their own darkness which led to their behavior. Once I'm there, I have no choice but to forgive, because I can see their completely broken spirits.

Who cannot take pity on the broken spirit of another human?
Who cannot bend to lift them up, even though he himself has pain?

So I forgive. Each and every time, I have been rewarded with a peaceful and comforting sense that God is pleased with me. I have moved forward in my own spirit, and I have gained in spiritual knowledge in the process.

*****************edit**************

SB, good stuff...


Not counter-intuitive, but something that takes time.



A guy can dream...

In my case, the anger must run it's course. NOT allowing myself to feel the anger has caused ME harm. Doing so now is part of my own healing.

"Anger turned inwards leads to depression"...

Can anger be healthy? I think so, as I've been feeling so much more in control once I was able to see what's happening for what it is...and let myself feel the anger.

WW has not been fully transparent...and perhaps never will... I'm still finding out about deceptions and betrayals...big and small, that will continue to have a fundamental impact on my life and our children's lives...

How to forgive when all is not yet known...?

The anger will pass, and the forgiveness will come too...but in my case not until I've reached a state of detachment and indifference.

Does that mean I will no longer be able to love WW...perhaps.

Yes, it is a gift...one you give yourself

Only time will tell.

My problem is I can't forgive my ex-wife until we are even.

I will forgive her when she has hit rock bottom from losing everything.

I's my flaw and I can live with it for now.


Rock bottom is the least she deserves from how cruelly she treated me.

The Bible is the direct Word of God. It is perfect in each translation, proof transfer, etc because God was controlling his Word.

This is my understanding and I can not comprehend how any other believer could imagine the Word being inerrant or
IDEAS.

Please reconsider your position. God Bless

Well said Schoolbus, as usual, very well said indeed.

All Blessings,
Jerry

Pariah, You do realize that what you wait for here will never happen?

If those are conditions for forgivenes, you will remain forever shackled to to your anger and bitterness.

I'm sure God envisioned much more and much better for your life. I do hope you let go of this.

All Blessings,
Jerry

I would like to stick to the sole purpose of this thread. The other topics are interesting and I would likely contribute a thread that discussed those points...BUT, I would like to keep this thread on point.

Thanks.

***************edit******************

you really are * pitiful * edit *

let me start by saying don't take my advice... i'm no marriage builders expert and this text i am about to type goes against some of the mb principals... sorry in advance

my stbxw is a serial cheater and i struggle every single day with why she ruined my chance to live happily ever after with her

yea it's a tall order to forgive somebody who has hurt you multiple times... using any definition

i personally don't think i am capable of forgiving somebody like jesus forgave us. i'm human

i think humans are inacapable of totally forgiving... we are not divine. we can forget about small discretions and we can get beyond the large ones by moving on... but forgiving life-altering wounds like serial adultry or sexual abuse? maybe others with a different faith belive they can but i was not able to do so

after reading this thread the one thing that struck me as being the closest to my definition of forgiveness was that story about the girl now woman who was sexually abused by her grandfather. she forgave him (guessing) because she had to do that in order to live life.

to live life, you can't live in the past or it will eat your soul. you won't grow until you get beyond that and use it as an excuse for failure. i will forgive the mother of my child sometime in the future when she is no longer eating my soul... when i realize she knew what she was doing and simply didn't care about how that affected us

((((charliethree))))

Charlie, we are capable of forgiving like Jesus forgave us.
But that's not a "blanket forgiveness" without any requirement. God requires that we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior as the means by which He grants us forgiveness and repent of our sinful ways.

Did Jesus forgive the abusers of the temple or did He, in righteous anger, clear the temple of them?

Does God forgive our sins without repentance of those sins?

But we can release the "penalties" and the future into God's hands, since He is the only one who can forgive sins, and rest in the knowledge that the future IS in His capable (and terrible for those who do not repent) hands. He grants us peace when we take all of our prayers and petitions to Him through Christ and for Christ.

God bless.

You tend to feel sorrow over the circumstances instead
of rage, you tend to feel sorry for the person rather than
angry with him. You tend to have nothing left to remember
to say about it all. You understand the suffering that drove
the offense to begin with. You are not waiting for anything.
You are not wanting anything. There is no lariat snare around
your ankle stretching from way back there to here. You are
free to go. It may not have turned out to be a happily ever
after, but most certainly there is now a fresh Once upon
a time waiting for you from this day forward.

This quote signifies the "simple" way I see forgiveness. Of course, "love" and forgiveness go together like MEDC stated earlier.

To me, the purpose of forgiveness is ONLY for the good of our self. It keeps the negative away from our hearts and enables us to love as commanded.

Regarding the other person, we can never truly know that repentance (which is necessary for forgiveness) is applicable. Therefore, one must assume that their "Judgment Day" will come and the offender will be judged according to the same standard we are.

In my situation, I do not feel anything but sorrow for my ex-wife. I understand most of what I contributed to the downfall of our marriage and I really try to improve myself in those areas daily.

This is my feeling

She has already lost her job a few weeks ago.

It's already starting to happen.

Besides, I have good reason not ot forgive as I found out everything ever taught to me by the church was an outright lie.

This verse is always comforting to know that christians who purposely sin aginst another are held accountable.


Luke:
57"Why don't you judge for yourselves what is right? 58As you are going with your adversary to the magistrate, try hard to be reconciled to him on the way, or he may drag you off to the judge, and the judge turn you over to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. 59I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.[c]"

In reading all of these post it is funny how we all see forgivness as something different.

I feel i forgave my FWH the day i said i was willing to let him come home and work on our M.

I do not however feel like i am "over" the betrayal and just wonder if you have to be "over" it to consider that you have "truly" forgiven your "F"WS.

I don't know for sure maybe it is not "forgiveness" that i am trying to achieve.