Well, that's in direct contrast to every book on abuse I've ever read.

Oh, and I agree that one just doesn't suddenly, and without warning stop doing things.

If I understand what she is saying, she has boundary issues.

So the solution is to establish boundaries, to "publish" them so they are not a surprise like a hidden land mine or electric fence and then enforce them.

Like with my children, there is a three strikes rule. You can ask once and should accept the answer, yes, no, maybe later, let's discuss later, etc. You can then ask if you can make a better case if you didn't like the answer, but must accept the outcome. If you persist after this, you will suffer a consequence, such as losing a priveledge. (how do you spell this, LOL?)

So I agree, she can't just start saying no. It is likely better to announce that she will not be as available if available at all to handle these sorts of things. His failure to plan ahead does not constitute an emergency on her part.

So, then when you are angry, doesn't that mean you are controlling?

The problem with many of these text book definitions is they are fine when we want to pick apart someone else, but most reject the notion that they are also in the example.

Let me ask you this, I believe you believe in God, right?

God is not able to sin.

Abuse is sin.

Yet God has been angry.

Either anger cannot always be control or abuse, or God is not who Christianity believes Him to be.

Not all anger is control, abuse, etc.

Is there abusive anger, controlling anger, etc? Sure. But not ALL anger is that way.

Otherwise, every human and even God is a sinful, abusive creature.

In James 1, we are told to be angry, but do not sin. This tells me that there is anger that is NOT abusive.

I tend to believe God, over most of these folks who write these books.

That doesn't mean they don't make good points. However, I don't think they have the same insight as the creator.

I didn't say that all anger is about control. Anger is just a feeling.

I was replying to your post 'doesn't mean it's being used to control.' I tried to say that, in the case of abusers, they can use 'getting angry' to control their victim. Many abusers know very well that all they have to do to get what they want, is to be angry, and the victim complies. Over time, they don't even have to get angry, just hint that they will do so.

You didn't but Jayne said that AO's are control.

Really?

My question is this, given that you have said you have certain issues, how certain are you that your diagnosis of your husband is accurate?

Has an objective professional evaluated his behavior, not your accounts of his behavior, but his behavior and said, your husband is abusive?

Because what I see is that you complain about his abuse, but don't recognize when you are doing the very same things that you complain about him doing. And/or, you have an issue, but shift the blame for your response to him on to him.

If you think he's taking advantage, etc, then take control of what you have control of, yourself.

You've always had the power. You may not know how to use it, but you have it.

It doesn't matter what he does. You are still responsible for your response.

Otherwise, if he "makes" you do things, or "makes" it difficult or impossible for you to act the right way, then we better open the jails and forgive other abusers because they likely had a difficult life too, and difficult people that "made" them do things.

Right?

But is this the fault of the abuser or the victim? Why is it that the victim complies when the abuser gets angry? If the "victim" desires to avoid conflict more than they desire (i) the abuser to exercise self control or (ii) the victim to exit the situation, why is that the abuser's problem?

En Ex is making the valid point that the primary goal here is for the victim to erect and defend boundaries. Those boundaries might include exiting the relationship.

I understand this is hard. I can't seem to do it either. But I understand that the problem is lack of will on MY part. That is EE's point. Stop waiting for the other person to better behavior, and start choosing healthier behavior for yourself.

Easy for me to say. And no, I won't do it if you do it. But I will applaud you if you do.

Yes, two different psychologists we've gone to (one was for family counseling) have said so.

hold, I keep saying I know, I know, I know, it's all about me, and what I have to do. Where do you see me disagreeing? Yet EE keeps taking me to task for it and telling me to 'just do it.' If I could just do it, that easily, I would have just done it years ago. That is why I am seeking help.

The point you are both missing is that a person who lives in such circumstances over time gets a skewed view of their own abilities, and loses most, or all, of their faith in themselves. Look at how hard we tried to talk to youngandlearning about leaving a guy she's only known a couple years - a guy who strangled her and threw hot coffee on her. Yet here she is, still with him. Look at the lady who came on yesterday and then bolted when we pointed out she was being abused. We don't think the same way as the rest of you. I'm probably closest to the 'cream' of the crop because I at least recognize my condition and am working my way out of it; most suffer through it their whole lives, because they buy into the 'I'm worthless' system.

I give up.

I understand. Have these folks also pointed out that you are doing many of the same things you are complaining about? If not, is it possible that your husband sees this as a one-sided attack upon him?
You really don't know if I'm missing this or not. You ASSUME I'm missing it. When in reality, I know that. But the only way I see for your to move into a different mindset is to be exposed to a different line of thinking.

The one saying you can't do it is not any of us, it's YOU. So your choices are to continue to argue with the folks who say you can do this, the power is yours, and remain exactly where you are, or you can begin to embrace the message that you do have the power, maybe you need to learn how to best us it, and then use that power.

When you keep complaining about your husband, you are still leaving him with the power. In other words, you are giving the power away.

Think of it this way, every time you complain, you lose power and empower him. So the very thing you don't like, you keep supporting and giving it your power. So you will continue to "feel" powerless, and continue to live in resentment.

So you take what I say as not understanding (a faulty assumption)

You cannot EXTERNALIZE your issues, period.

If you want to vent, vent about YOUR failures, and then put into place the measures you need to avoid repeating your failures.

But venting about your husband only HINDERS your growth. You cannot personally grow by tearing down or criticizing another person. And if you really want to build a marriage, you can't keep LB'ing your H whilst complaining about his LB's.

I'll know you understand this is about you when you speak ONLY about you and how you respond. When you stop throwing around the labels you and others have applied to your husband.

It's not about him, or his faults, it's about yours.

If he were here, I'd say the same to him, it's about his faults, the only things he can fix are his, etc.

But as long as you keep speaking of his faults, I'll not be convinced that you really believe you are serious about addressing what you have control over, your personal issues.
So how do you WANT to think? If you want to remain where you are, then keep embracing how difficult your situation is, and how bad your husband is, and how yada yada yada.

If you want change, then embrace it. Stop telling those who are cheering you, or encouraging you, and yes even those admonishing you that they don't understand, or they have no clue.

But I know you are not worthless. That's why I spend my time here.

But if you want to give up, and remain the victim, instead of the victor, that is your decision.

I hesitate to say anything, but I think I'll risk it because I think it will help cat.

EE, I think I see you trying to convince cat that she has the power to change her life, and to take the steps to move out of feeling victimized and into feeling powerful.

I get what you're saying about DJs. It's been awhile since I've read posts where ppl are called on their DJs. Thanks for keeping up the diligence against DJs. I can see your point about how DJing, even just here without telling your spouse, still hurts you. It is you depleting your own love bank - making withdrawals from your spouse's balance. It trains your brain to be a victim.

The thing is, IMHO your approach isn't working for cat right now. I don't *think* it helps one to hear "shake off those feelings and just do it!" when you've been down so far, so long.

I think she knows she needs to get healthier. I think she's trying.

I also see you say some things that seem IMHO like you may have formed your opinion without reading all cat's history. You've been around a long time, and I respect that - you probably have a better idea of what approaches have worked in the past. But for example, to question whether MrCat has been actually abusive ... to keep insisting that she's being abusive to him... it's seeming to me like at attempt to "blame the victim", not to help the victim out of victimhood.



Or: If not, is it possible that she isn't doing many of the same things?



I agree.



This is good stuff here. (Not that you need my endorsement!)


IMO these are the types of statements cat needs to hear more of... which is why those of us who do, "cheer her on."

I may be wrong, of course. Maybe a harsh approach will end up helping her. So I'm not sure if I should post this.

Here is my problem, and why I wonder if we have an accurate picture. I never, NEVER said to shake off the feelings. I simply said to just do it. I never even mentioned what she should DO with her feelings, or that her feelings are wrong, or whatever.

So if you and she is getting that message, it's not from me, and it's this sort of mis-characterization that leads me to wonder how accurate other things are.

Understand.

I've said this more than one, that I've not told her to stuff her feelings, yet it's a recurrent statement, attributed to me, that I've not said.

Again, after taking great pains to say she is not responsible for his behavior, you indicate this is my message. This is a gross mis-characterization of my message and leads me to wonder if you and she really hear me, or just fill in what you THINK I'm saying, when I've said exactly the opposite, that she is NOT responsible for his behavior.

What I have said is that if she is displaying those same behaviors that she finds troubling when he does them, that she will be sending a mixed message. Her husband will likely take the realization that she is doing those things then they must be OK, otherwise she wouldn't be doing them.

So by her doing those things, some of which are the very things cited as his abuse, such as anger, or wanting conversation on his/her particular terms, etc, is sending him the message that these are acceptable behaviors.

It's not JUST about her boundaries, but also consistent behaviors.

I believe she has cited his critical nature and that has been called abusive, yet she is being critical of him.

So therefore, either she is also being abusive, or it's not abusive behavior. Even if she is not complaining to his face, it likely comes through in her attitude and/or her unwillingness to be with him, do things, talk, share, etc.
But these threads demonstrate that she is. I believe she wants him to make changes, yet complains that he is controlling. Lots of "he shoulds"

If not the very same LB's such as DJ's, then others, such as not being honest. Remember, not sharing what is troubling her, is an LB. She adds to it by justifying her actions with a DJ.

So tell me, how would someone who operates primarily in the logical realm interpret this?

I can tell you it's likely as I am. That's why I've asked her to show this to her husband. If I'm totally wrong, then let him say so.

But if I'm right, it will tell her why things are the way they are, that her actions are speaking louder than anything said in the counselors office. Mr Cat hears one thing in a session, about how things need to be done, but apparently, only he has to change (from his perspective.) She is "allowed" those hurtful behaviors that he's prohibited from using.

She uses the very behaviors here that she complains about.

So what message does that send?

If we say he's not allowed to do it, or not allowed to excuse it due to a difficult upbringing, then she can't cloak her behavior in excusing it on his prior acts.

But sharing what I see is not harsh. Being harsh is telling someone they are worthless.

Ironically, the only one doing that is HER, not me, not you. It's her own internal self-talk.

Pointing out that she is doing the things she complains about is NOT harsh. She can take it that way, but it's not reality.

That's why I didn't put it in quotes - it was my interpretation of the message I hear. You didn't say it in words. It's what comes across, though, IMHO.

Unless you just don't get how a person can be paralyzed by feelings.

I used the phrase "shake it off" because I was picturing a football coach, telling a player who's just been sacked, to "shake it off and get back in the game."

If the football player was sacked really hard, though, that might be impossible. Maybe they need to be carried off the field on a stretcher.

That thing that a less injured player would just "shake off", maybe this player needs help with that thing, instead of playing on through or in spite of that thing.

You are telling her to "just do it" in spite of her feelings. Ok, sure you aren't telling her to change her feelings. But could I say you are telling her to ignore her feelings? One way or another, you are telling her to "just do it" without solving the problem of her paralyzing feelings.



And here is where *I* think *you* are not getting the message. I think you are not understanding that the feelings can be paralyzing. I didn't say you literally told her that her feelings were wrong, or told her anything other than to just do it. But she can't, until she overcomes the paralysis... which is due to feelings of fear based on years of issues.

She keeps saying she knows she needs to take steps. She comes here for help in working toward the strength to take such steps.



And she's said more than once, she knows she needs to take steps, that's why she's here, to work up the courage to take those steps...

It seems to me that instead of hearing her say that, you keep accusing her of mis-understanding you. And then you say the same thing - she needs to just do it.

She knows she needs to just do it.

And I'll say it again: I'm not saying you literally directly said to stuff her feelings. I'm saying that you are telling the football player to "just do it", to get in the game and do what needs to be done... but the football player has a concussion.

Ok, NOT LITERALLY. I know you haven't mentioned football in any of your posts!!! That is my impression of what you are *figuratively* saying, expressed in an analogy.


I didn't ever say that you said she is responsible for his behavior. I said this seems to me like "blaming the victim"... meaning, blaming the victim for not taking appropriate precautions, for putting up with behaviors, for not "just doing" what it would take to change the situation.


I don't think she displays any of those same behaviors to him. Did you read about him having an AO complete with racial slurs in public, I think to a movie rental clerk? Did you read about how when he showed anger (I forget about what) she tried to be strong but caved in and gave him the BJ that would calm him down? Do you really think she shows him any evidence of feeling anger?

You told her that if she wants something done around the house, or a project finished, that she should take responsibility and do it herself. But he tells her not to! That IMHO indicates she needs encouragement on establishing her own personal boundaries, and feeling safe enough to do it anyway - not admonishment for not doing it herself. It isn't her unwillingness that is keeping her from doing it - it is her fear, or need to please, or conflict avoidance, whatever you want to call it.



For one thing, I'm not sure you're reading the same posts I have. For another thing, yes I AGREE IT'S HER OWN INTERNAL SELF-TALK that is paralyzing her. I just don't think telling her she shows too much anger toward her H (a blame for her), or that if she wants something done around the house she should just do it herself (another blame for her), etc, is helping to improve her own self-talk.

In MB terms: IMHO she needs encouragement in bringing her Taker to the table, not admonishment to bring her Giver to the table.

And you can see how this would be a problem. If someone TAKES a message completely differently from the intended meaning, there is a problem.

If, after the original speaker clarifies, and the recipient still insists that the messages means or is interpreted another way, the problem is NOT with the sender.


I probably don't.

But what I do know is that it doesn't have to be permanent, and the only solution is for the one paralyzed to eventually decide they are going to act.

And if this is the case, then perhaps she needs to be carried off out of the marriage if she is hurt this badly.

She is the one who is still in the game.

I'm saying if she's in the game, is she totally in it, or not? Is she still playing the best game possible, or is she giving excuses for her missed plays?


I'm saying that if she is going to play the game, she has to play the best game possible, focus only on her actions, and not give excuses about why things are going bad because of others, or because of the past.

It's her decision to play, and so far, she is in the game. So if that's her decision, she has to play at the highest level.

But as far as I can tell, she has, at this point decided to remain. So she isn't totally paralyzed, right?
There is no strength in excuses or blaming her husband.
Courage is not built on excuses or blaming other people and/or circumstances, right? Courage is built on ACTION.

When I jumped out of planes for Uncle Sam's Boyscouts with Automatic Rifles, it was scary to jump out of planes. I didn't sit around and talk about how scary it was, or how I might get hurt. I trained and conquered my fears and jumped out of the plane.

Circumstances are the catalyst for building courage, or the water that puts out the flame.

Well, sometimes it's that simple. Sometimes you just have to do it. Talk is cheap, action speaks louder.

That's why I keep saying that her complaints about his LB's are cheap talk compared to her performing the very same LB's. That's the louder, more clear message.
If saying she is responsible for her action or inaction is blame, then I guess I'm guilty.

But then if we say she's not responsible, then don't we have to give her husband a free pass as well, for all his bad behavior?

If you want to keep arguing how hard it is for her, etc, then argue the same for him, that he should get a pass because he had a hard upbringing.

Part of what I'm doing is demonstrating that she has TWO standards, a lax one for herself and a strict one for her husband.

What message does that send?

She may not display it to him, but most of this thread is her covert AO about him.

Everytime she complains about him, even if she's just venting, it's the equivalent to an AO. So is she trying to control him with her anger? She wants change, he's responsible for much of her unhappiness, the state of the home, etc.

It may not be a racial slur, but she does have two different standards, one for her, one for him. That's likely as damaging as racism.

Keeping it from him is no virtue. That just makes it passive aggressive. Just a different manifestation of her anger.

But they both are angry, not just him.

But it's still her, right? It's her fear, or her need to please, or her need to avoid conflict. Everything you said is that it's her something.

So, this aspect of it is her.

Again, complaining about his faults, what he did, etc, does nothing to help, and likely HINDERS her growth.

I didn't say too much, that's a judgment and it's not my place to do this. What I've said is that if she complains about his anger, but is angry herself, she sends a conflicting message.

Now, I admit, she manifests her anger differently. But I don't believe it's better than how he expresses his.

She needs to bring a GOOD taker, and leave the bad giver at home.

The bad taker is the one that has the double standard. The one that says my anger is good, his is bad. The good giver doesn't just act because he's angry. It acts because it really cares for him.

The good giver might just have to give him the space to be angry and be out of the "blast zone."

The bad giver just avoids conflict, or does whatever without consideration for long term consequences such as building resentment.

This is where the POJA comes into place, because one doesn't act if it causes resentments.

Jayne, Cat, EE, I wanted to throw in my 2 cents too, for what it's worth. LovingAnyway time and again pointed out to me where I was failing to protect myself and my H from my distortions in perspective. Failing to play the game with the proper protective gear, to use your analogy. When I said the kinds of things about my H that Cat says about hers, she'd tell me, "What you do to others, you'll do to yourself." When I beat myself up for my shortcomings like Cat does, she said, "What you do to yourself, you'll allow yourself to do to others."

Today, we're in the game. We need the protective gear, for us and for the other members on our team. Otherwise, we could injure ourselves until we have to sit out the rest of the season. Or retire early, or get switched to some team when we wanted to stay and play where we were.

Either way, we're not playing our best when we play without the protective gear. There may some amazing plays that we're capable of, that we don't make from our fear. The fans wonder, too, why we do so well in practice but play so safe on the field? They miss what we have and fail to bring to the game.

Some day, I may feel equal enough to everyone else to participate in the game. Today, I consider it a success that I'm not throwing in the towel, when I want nothing more than to quit hurting. But I don't, because I care more for my daughter's and mother's - and, yes, my husband's - feelings, than my own. Maybe some day, I'll be ready to deal with y'all's radical honesty, with God's help. Today is not that day.

Cat, In all the instability in my life these past weeks, I haven't kept up with any of the threads I was involved in before. I apologize for being absent.

Sounds like your progress is slow and you're struggling again. I'm sorry to hear that. Are you still in IC and is it helping?

I am learning that it's important to be concerned about the feelings of those important to us, but we must do whatever we can to take care of our own feelings. If you continue to always put everyone else first out of fear or obligation, you may not have any of yourself left to give later when they may need it more.

You are a wonderful woman who is worthy of a happy life. How can you work toward believing that and living that?

KLD and Cat,

You are BOTH amazing!!!

WH2LE

Cat, I respect your opinion. I am looking at the same thing, and seeing it a little differently. I see you and your H making different choices, too, chosing not to let this depression or whatever it is continue to control your life.

I am sorry that you don't feel equal some days. But I am glad that you take the steps to act like an equal, anyhow.

Everything you guys say - all of you - makes perfect sense. I intend to keep making changes and honoring my H and myself. When I live in a world of molasses, the changes are incremental. I sat next to H on the couch last night, to honor his wish for cuddling. But my hot flashes took over, and I started fanning myself. After a minute or two, I asked him if it bothered him. He said yes. So I stopped, changed clothes to try to cool off that way, to honor that wish of his. When I returned, I asked him what else I do that bothers him. I said, if you tell me what I do that bothers you, I'd be happy to change it. He said he didn't know. But I asked. And I went to IC yesterday and got some things to work on.

So there's my progress. It may not be enough for you guys, but all I want to do these days is sleep or disappear. My friend was telling me that she had to be committed a few months ago, after a bipolar episode; my second thought (after concern for her)? I found myself wishing I'd get bad enough that I'd have to be put in a hospital, just so I can get a break from life. So I consider what I did good enough for one day.

{{{{{ cat }}}}}

BTDT. I've sometimes wished I could just let go and have a nervous breakdown, or be addicted to something so I'd have an "excuse" to go away to rehab. Sometimes it's a success to just get through the day, when you are in the depths of depression.

Are the meds helping yet? They take time. I know you know that, but it doesn't hurt to hear it again.

I have one idea for today that you might want to do. I got it from the Tools To Life website. It's my exercise for today, and I thought of you.

(A) List 10 things about yourself, that describe you when you are at your best. I'll get you started:

--(1) You are a very caring, compassionate person, and it shows in the way you help others through your posts.

--(2) You are a faithful and supportive marriage partner, and it shows when you help your H when he's forgotten or lost something.

--(3) You are intelligent, and it shows in the advice you give.

--(4) You are a good mother who cares enough to spend time with her daughter and to be involved in her daughter's life, knowing her daughter's friends, interests, etc.

You don't have to stop at 10!

(B) Now list 10 things about your H that are good, or that you like when he's at his best. From some of your previous posts, I'm guessing some items might be:

--(1) You find him desirable and like showing him physical attention.

--(2) Even though he finds it difficult, he is making efforts to please you by going through stacks of papers.

--(3) He offered to take care of dinner the other night in whatever way you chose, and when you suggested he take your D out to dinner so you could work on paperwork, that's exactly what he did.

--(4) He values and desires spending time with you and your D instead of running around at all hours of the day and night; he is home with you.

--(5) He has a job and contributes to the financial support of the household.

Keep going until you come up with 10. You don't have to use the items I listed.

(C) Now, each morning, look in the mirror and recite, out loud(!), three things from each list.

FYI here's an excerpt from the exercise on Tools To Life:

Thank you. I've copied your start and will fill it out today. It goes along with what IC told me yesterday, too. I've had the meds for 3 days now, and keep forgetting to take it (left it at home)! That's life in depression, your mind skittering around like a cockroach instead of in a straight path. I have to take it in the morning, my worst time, so I need to set it up the night before, which I'll do tonight.

I know H thinks we plan too much stuff without considering him, so I emailed him today and told him the things that are going on this weekend (company picnic, D17 volunteering at Children's Festival, and a city-wide college fair). I told him about the things that were happening (asked him if it was ok with him if we attend the college fair; the other two, we're kind of stuck doing), and asked him what he would like to do tonight, since we'd be doing a lot of stuff this weekend, and I wanted to make sure we planned some time for what he wants.