*edit*

You are way off base. This is a classic case of infidelity. She had her affair partner waiting in the wings while she got YOU out of the picture. This happens all of the time.

I hope you will contact the Harleys for at least one session. Your wife doesn't get it.

It was an affair, the fact that you were separated when the PA happened doesn't mean it wasn't a PA.

The PA happened because she created the circumstances for it to occur. She started the EA, the conditions of the M went south at least in part but probably largely due to the EA, then she justified the PA to herself based on the destruction caused by the EA.

It really is classic wayward behavior, the only thing different about it is that you moved out before the A started, unlike so many that move out after they discover it.

Your WW's unwillingness to accept responsibility or acknowledge the reality of what happened is going to make recovery difficult at least.

YOU need to recognize her behavior for what it was, despite her excuses. She is trying to make you accept the unacceptable. NO reason for BOTH of you to deny reality.

Thanks for the replies. We haven't really talked about it much at all. She has told me that she knows it was all her fault, she has also shown me how guilty she feels about what happened even before we were separated. She knows she was stupid to get involved with him even after everybody warned her about him. She refers to him as the biggest mistake she ever made. It's like she knows but just won't actually say it was a PA. Everything I have read and everyone I talk to says it was a PA. I just don't know how to bring it up. I was planning on bringing it up at counseling. I have only met with the counselor once and I feel like she is biased toward my wife. I would love to meet with Dr. Harley as he has been a tremendous help to me in figuring out who I am and understanding how things are.

An affair (emotional or otherwise) is adultery.

Adultery is a sexual connection with someone outside of the marriage.

You guys were still married at the time she slept with this OM.

What you wife did was adultery... in the eyes of the law and God.

The sooner she GETS this, the sooner you can REALLY begin honest recovery.

I appreciate your point of view and a don't disagree with it. The wording is where it gets sketchy. We were still married in the eyes of the law. But even in my eyes, we were getting the divorce, papers had been filed, finances and belongings had been completely separated. I had even told her she was evil and I didn't care what she did with her life. I didn't mean it but she didn't know that. I wasn't happy about it and it was not my choice but I was moving on. Granted I was not looking to find a new love anytime soon, I felt that it was really none of my business what she did at that point in time. I don't think there was a sexual relationship until they actually met. I have seen this guy, he is simply not her type. He is fat, ugly, and barely employed. I believe her when she tells me that he told her he was just going to visit her as a friend and not as a boyfriend. I am in no way excusing her actions or taking responsibility away from her, ultimately, she could have said no. I believe she did have an EA while we were still together but we were not at all together when she slept with him. The eyes of God and the law are great and I respect people who believe in that but sometimes those eyes are not the ones that matter.

You seem to keep defending that it was not an affair, but yet you asked the question, so a part of you must realize that it was.

I started a thread a couple of days ago "Was it an affair?" which is very similar to what you are asking.

My husband swore he did not leave me for the OW and that our marriage was over when he began his relationship with her. But here I am just over a year into recovery and still stuck on the fact that he didn't call it an affair. He is very remorseful and has apologized for hurting me and has become a wonderful husband, but I am stuck on the fact that he didn't call it an affair. What makes it even harder for me is that I waffle back and forth on this too. How wonderful it would be if I could think that my H did not have an affair, but I know he did and he just doesn't want to call it that.

Also, this is my second marriage and guess what ended my first. I had befriended a man and decided my marriage was over and left my husband. We were separated for months before it became physical with my "friend" and it wasn't until years later that I even realized I had an EA which played a big part in me walking out on my marriage, even though it didn't become physical for months.

I am telling you all this because I don't want you to be stuck were I am at over a year into recovery and still having a hard time with my H not calling it an affair.

Well if you're both having a hard time naming "it" an affair, then why ask the question? You can tell yourself all day long that it wasn't but that won't change the facts in the eyes of the majority.

So do you blame yourself for her affair because you told her that you didn't care what she did with her life?

Does she blame you for her affair for the same reason?

What's the deal here? If neither of you consider it an affair, then continue on with your successful recovery. I guess I don't get your point.

TOMID,

"The PA happened because she created the circumstances for it to occur. She started the EA, the conditions of the M went south at least in part but probably largely due to the EA, then she justified the PA to herself based on the destruction caused by the EA.

It really is classic wayward behavior, the only thing different about it is that you moved out before the A started"

Tyk is on the money.

Your gut is telling you that your WW had an affair.
Listen to your gut.

Denial is not a river in Egypt.

That is the point, I see it as an affair. No, I don't blame myself for it. She can't blame me for it because she doesn't acknowledge that it was in fact an affair. That is what bothers me. I guess my real question is or at least was should I push the subject or not and how can I do that with out it looking like I am trying to punish her. I don't want to punish her, she feels terrible and guilty and that is punishment enough but I want closure. I want her to say the words "I had an affair".

You asked a question and the answer is yes, it was an affair. You're in good shape to recover from it, but it is what it is.

You are going to have to both do some serious work on the marriage.

My thought is what if he hadn't been a loser, ugly and barely employed? Where would you be now?

Basically, she formed an attachment, ditched you, and went for another man. It didn't work out. And now she denies it was an affair, and will start doing the real work when she is done with finals. Is that about where it stands?

Other Mel,

The truth has a funny way about it.

No matter what people do, it sticks like glue and cannot be rubbed out, washed away, denied.....

Nothing gets rid of the truth.

Sooner or later, no matter what you call "it"

you and your wife will both come to understand that this affair nearly led to the demise of your marriage.

Does it REALLY matter the timing of the sexual consummation of their affair?

Before the separation, during the separation, while you were legally separation, ten minutes before the ink dried?


I submit the questions:

Would the two of you have separated AT ALL had your wife NEVER CONTACTED this man online in the first place?

Would the two of you have separated AT ALL had your wife ended contact and spent her time with you, seducing YOU, instead of trying to get this man to come and see her?

Would the two of you have separated AT ALL had your wife told you about this other man the VERY FIRST TIME the mention or thought of sex ever came up with this other man?

Would the two of you have separated AT ALL had your wife told you she was thinking about this other man too much, and fantasizing about a life with him, and that it was threatening the marriage?


Because the TRUTH is that your wife was well involved with this man and in this affair - sexual or not - before the separation.

Consummation does not an affair make, and it is obvious right before your eyes, and in your life, that it does not take the consummation part to take the marriage apart.

That truth stands, whether you call it an affair, dipsy-doodle, or hoopdy-doopdy.


If it were me, I would tell her that this marriage will NEVER work if the two of you cannot look at the truth of what happened and confront it head-on.

To do otherwise is to condemn yourselves to repeat this mistake.

Do you really want to live in a marriage that is NOT affair-resistant? Because, if you do not stand up to this point now, you WILL see it happen again. She denies the boundary was crossed - and THAT is trouble waiting to be repeated. For me, it would be a deal breaker.

Schoolbus

Does it REALLY matter the timing of the sexual consummation of their affair?

Yes, I think it does. Had it happened before we were separated or even before we had stopped talking, I would not even be with her


I submit the questions:

Would the two of you have separated AT ALL had your wife NEVER CONTACTED this man online in the first place?

Most likely yes. We had talked about it a few times over the months leading up to this.

Would the two of you have separated AT ALL had your wife ended contact and spent her time with you, seducing YOU, instead of trying to get this man to come and see her?

This question is two fold. If she would have seduced me I probably would have given her more affection and the cycle we were in may have turned around but this problem had been around long before this guy was even on the radar. As for her trying to get the guy to visit her, I really don't believe that was ever her intention until we came to the point where divorce was imminent. I have not told the whole story and we BOTH were pretty harsh to each other after I left.

Would the two of you have separated AT ALL had your wife told you about this other man the VERY FIRST TIME the mention or thought of sex ever came up with this other man?

I knew about the other man the whole time, from the very beginning of their friendship. Like I said before, I really don't think she had any intentions of being more than friends with him until after we were apart and even then I think she still wanted just to be friends but the other man made her feel loved and cared for when she was all alone. Basically, I think he came on to her and took the initiative and she accepted because she felt like he had become all that she had. She does not have a lot of close friends and when I left I took most of them with me leaving her pretty much alone.

Would the two of you have separated AT ALL had your wife told you she was thinking about this other man too much, and fantasizing about a life with him, and that it was threatening the marriage?

Yes due to other factors.




I spoke with her in detail about everything that happened last night. It was very hard for both of us but she basically told me way more than I would have asked. We had many issues before any of this happened. We were both abusive and never took the time to listen to each other or nurture each others needs. I neglected her need for affection, conversation and honesty, she neglected my needs too. Our marriage was on a path to failure months before any of this happened. I think that may be why I am so forgiving. After speaking with her last night I think we are both on the same page. She feels immense guilt about everything that happened, she knows she hurt me, she knows that it was wrong to seek out emotional support outside of the marriage and she won't do it again. I do wish that none of this had happened but I honestly believe that we needed to be separated and the divorce was imminent if both of us did not come to our senses and make drastic changes in our lives. I think I was in a similar state of mind as what she was in when "it" happened. Only I had my friends calling me every day and spending time with me supporting me. She really had no one except for this guy who had assured her so many times that he just wanted to be her friend. Yes she let it go way too far with him but I can see the guilt destroying her when she thinks about it. Had I been given the opportunity to feel loved and cared for by another woman at that time I can't honestly say that I would not have taken the bait myself. Our marriage was lacking so much for so long and i think we both see the mistakes and patterns that led us to this point and we are both determined to not go back to that. Her actions while we were apart really suck for lack of a better word but I really think that the separation was probably the catalyst we both needed to realize how we were destroying each other. I know that if we had stayed together things probably would have kept going on the way they were and regardless of what happened our current situation is still better than our old situation.

Well you ignored my previous post to you, but our situations are very similar. My marriage sucked, my H left and hooked up with OW who he had been "friends" with, she was his old high school girlfriend, I knew they were "friends", I sat next to her at their 20 year reunion.

But here I am a year later still bothered that he can't see that it was an affair.

I would suggest if you really want to continue believing that your W did not have an affair then stop reading and posting on here. Because the more you learn of the other posters stories you will come to see that your W did have an affair and it will begin to bother you more and more.

I would suggest you read His Needs Her Needs and counsel with the Harley's to learn how to build a fulfilling affair proof marriage. So that next time your marriage hits a rough patch you don't both start thinking about having affairs.

I will ask again, why did you even post this question on here if you knew your wife did not have an affair?

I still think it is because a part of you knows she really did. That little doubt in your mind that it was an affair will grow and grow and you will get angry. It took me about a year to get really angry about it and at the beginning of our recovery I said that the OW was insignificant. Wow how I wish I could still think that way, it was so comforting to think she was insignificant and that the only reason my H turned to her was because our marriage sucked. I so want back the H that I could trust completely never to cheat on me, and that is why I clung so long to my thoughts that my situation was different and not really an affair. Now a year later here I am dealing with it because I hid my head in the sand and chose not to deal with it sooner.

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