Hi LA,

I read that you were trying to please/impress your (older?) sister as you were growing up. I can see that in my H (he's the youngest of 3 boys) and I'm going to do some soul searching (I'm the 14th of 15). Do you think birth order has anything to do with this?

Where do you/your H fall in your FOO's? Have you read anything on birth order? I haven't gotten around to it yet.

BIO,

I haven't read anything on birthorder, but I've heard some stuff...through others' filters. They had lots of things that resonated for them when they read the books.

I know my sons take their birthorder seriously...except my YS. Don't know about his thoughts. MS identified a lot of his beliefs from being in the middle. So did OS.

I believe what we experience in life has effects that ripple inside of us...so I'm going with important. How important? I don't know.

I just know that my pleaser wasn't limited to my sister, nor was my punisher. They come as a package. Can't have one without the other. I have only had my father and my sister my whole life...everyone else came in and went at different times. So I know they are the most potent.

Did I mention I would also punish her for not giving me attention, admiration, appreciation?

Oops.

My DH is the first son, third child...so a mix, I guess. In ways he says it was like he was firstborn and in others, not at all. He is third of four children.

I would love to know what you come up with in your soul searching. I know that children strive to be opposite their siblings...which is tough to do when there are three or more (can't be total opposites). I could and did strive to be opposite my sister in many ways...and in opposite of my DH, too...all or nothing thingie.

LA

How did you punish your sister? What brought you to the conclusion that you don't need someone else's admiration in order to be admirable?

As far as my siblings, I didn't want to strive to be opposite/like them...I decided (at a very young age) that I was going to learn (and not repeat) their mistakes. The result was that I made many huge mistakes/choices on my own. I now strive to pick the things I admire about my siblings and others (like you and your gracious way of listening and responding) and incorporated them into my interactions and, hopefully, my inner self.

Great questions...how did I attempt to punish her...

Well, I would tell on her a lot, even make stuff up. I would try in the early years to physically hurt her, get her to cry (she was excellent at not crying, btw). I tried to frighten her into stop hurting me.

I would pretty much do whatever the opposite was I assumed she wanted me to do. In her later teen years, she felt at one time loss of our connection, stated her remorse and I rejected her, discounted what she said and blew her off.

No, none of it worked for me. Now that I think about it, I did work really hard at trying to control her response.

I wonder if I'm still doing that in my life?

Thanks for sharing you wanted to learn from your siblings' mistakes and it didn't work the way you thought it would--didn't protect you from making your own. I have had a deep regret of not learning from others' mistakes...and that balances my perception to hear.

Not all one way or the other...somewhere in the middle.

Seems to me that what we dislike in others we have in ourselves...so what we admire in others, we already have in ourselves, too. Good to know and rediscover, huh?

LA

"Seems to me that what we dislike in others we have in ourselves...so what we admire in others, we already have in ourselves, too. Good to know and rediscover, huh?"

You know, this brings up a great point. Maybe focusing on the negative of others, made me feel more negative; by choosing to focus on the positive, feeling positive as a result.

btw LA,

What do you do for a living? Are you in the counselling field?

Good morning, BIO...

Yes, I believe where we choose to focus (on whom, on problems...and if we mix up the two...on lack or abundance) becomes what we treasure, hence, our experience.

So seeking out the most balanced perception makes sense...to see what feels negative (and trace it to your fears), and positive...and trace that to your desires (already in you, too)...is a connective and healthy exercise we can do for ourselves.

And yes, our feelings result from our beliefs about what we're focusing on. Good point.

No, the construction field...admin/acctng. I'm chief nag, IT, reception and communication support.

I get a boost in my faith thinking you're going to be one, though. How do you feel when you see posters advised that the majority of counselors are crud (my word, not theirs)?

LA

La, I'll tell you what I think. I think that it would be hard for any professional to do their job without any tools. I am so glad that there are programs like MB and Imago so people can actullay make progress. Two people who learn to communicate their unhappiness better without learning tools to eliminate the unhappiness like POJA are still going to be unhappy. I can imagine if I was a therapist that I would think that it would be obvious to everyone about the Four Rules - Protection, not to be the cause of their spouse's unhappiness, Care, Time and Honesty. But to many of us it just wasn't taht obvious until someone like Dr. Harley wrote it down for us.

I'm with you, EO...

I'm grateful to BIO in advance...and the Harleys, The Hendrixes, the Beatties, the Gottmans...all those in this world who share their passion for marriage, for people...their ideas, research and beliefs.

They may fear others saying, "This isn't new! Duh, everyone knows that!" and they share it, anyway.

It takes what it takes to get us to hear...and to here.

I think they are as much a part of God's working as the rest of us.

Wasn't obvious to me at all...and I obsessed on manipulating and controlling my marriage...they felt like tools...they felt real.

LA

I've wondered if I should go into that field, too. This is already my second career, though, the IT/Engineering. My first was teaching, but at the time, my aptitude for it didn't match my enthusiasm. Kinda like my marriage LOL.

LA, you've got mail.

LA,

I have another question for you. Do you think that Imago conflicts with MB in the sense that Dr Harley does not support looking at childhood issues in resolving marital problems? I'm thinking that both could be used in some cases. Of course, I have no where near the education/experience that the doctor has. When I get to the point of opening a practice (a few years down the road), I would like to incorporate both, but wouldn't want to damage the purity of MB style.

EO,

I think you'd be wonderful in that field! I learn much from your wisdom when you post...as I do when LA's posts. I'm amazed at the patience both of you have in sorting through the details of each post you respond to.

BIO, that's a really interesting question about Imago conflicting with the purity of MB. We're in Imago counseling now, and we don't go on about our whole childhood, just discuss the part that gets triggered in the present with our partner.

For example, when my H uses agressive body language in the present when we're talking, like moving very close to me with his fists clenched and his chest "puffed up", that it's very intimidating to me, and I feel frightened, like when I was young and my stepfather or a bully at school intimidated me. I think that's really important, to recognize that connection. Hopefully H would recognize that this isn't okay. But more important I think, is that I make that connection so that I have the information I need to know that it's very important for me to protect myself from that, by saying Ouch, and so on. Because that's a BIG love buster for me.

I think the folks that benefit most from MB would be people who are pretty healthy emotionally, which I would think are the vast majority of people. And for those healthy people, POJA would be plenty, they "get it" right away that things that make love bank withdrawals have to go. But those of us who have suffered domestic violence and other issues can tend to lack confidence in our judgement and our willingness to protect ourselves and even our loved ones, so it makes sense to go the extra step and make that connection as to why this behavior must be eliminated.

Oh my goodness, BIO, thanks for the sweet comment! I enjoy my work, but I enjoy my time on here much more. I guess what is holding me back is that my field pays me really well and has a traditional 9 to 5 schedule, so it's hard to think about trading that in for one where I don't know about the compensation or the schedule. H and I have gotten counseling outside of traditional working hours, like a Saturday or evening or early morning.

EO,

Does your Imago counsellor support your MB beliefs as well?

I'm seeing more clarity with the "childhood abuse" issues and using Imago in those circumstances. My H was abused, I was not so I sometimes struggle to understand his reactions to ANY conflict. This also explains H's resistance to MB.

As far as the comment, it's well deserved. I, too, struggled with whether to make the time/money investment for a career that isn't going to provide a lot of monetary benefit. Fortunately, we're both drawing military retirement (modest income), live modestly (now), and have that flexibility. As the saying goes, "If you love what you do, you'll never work another day in your life."

That's a great question. H extended his business trip, so it'll be just me for MC today, so I'll ask her about that. We made our affirmation statement, the list of our goals written kind of like a mission statement, and we put Rule Of Time, Rule of Care, Rule of Protection, and Rule of Honesty in there.

I met DD7's girl scout moms for dinner last night, and two shared that they are going for psychology degrees. I was wondering why we were getting along SO much better as a troop and the DJs had stopped! I will talk to my IC about vocation, and I am really glad that you got me thinking about that!

"I will talk to my IC about vocation, and I am really glad that you got me thinking about that!"

I'm glad you're looking into it. Sometimes we're given a talent (and I think you were) and we just have to make the most of our gifts. I just got a "Max Lucado" e-mail about that very subject.

The Imago will help you both understand his reactions. I don't think that changes the clarity that MB offers, that those love busters will drain your love bank until you get a plan in place to stop them. As far as your H's resistance to MB, I'm not sure exactly what you mean. Is it that he doesn't think that these love busters are real for you, because he doesn't trust his own judgement? Or something else?

BIO,

Good morning! (I admire your schedule of only posting early in the morning, btw. Very cool.)

I'm with EO...I don't see a conflict in anyway. Imago therapy has been talked about on these boards for a long time. Many have benefited doing both...I think Imago fits in with the four rules of care, protection and radical honesty.

MB concepts are very present...they are active and involved in the now. Imago acknowledges how much of our past is also experienced again in the present. Even helps us to figure out what our ENs are (by showing us where they come from) and our LBs.

Our MC explained there is a difference in crisis counseling from non-crisis counseling. Harley has plans and action due to marital crisis...most of us don't seek out preventive care when it comes to our marriages...usually only get to MC when we are in crisis, on the verge of losing our marriages.

Non-crisis counseling digs into the past in relation to the present. Which is why inner child work in our adult selves comes at non-crisis times. I think it furthers understanding of Harley's methods, shows the brilliance within them.

I also think it deepens intimacy through radical honesty...sharing what we remember, how we experienced it, and share with our partners when it affects us today.

I love it when my DH says, "Hey, I just flashed on a camping trip when I looked at the way the sun is hitting the wall right now." Brings sharing to replace persuading in my book. He doesn't have to convince me, take me back with him, or describe it bit by bit. I just know where he went, so I went there with him...because he shared.

I think the best advice you can get on merging the two would be directly from Dr. Harley or Steve Harley, or both. Worth writing to them about it, I think.

About our postings....I follow Harley's LBs...my goal is not to assume, not name-call or lie, no AO's...because those are my boundaries I hold myself to in my code of conduct. I don't see my patience as my preponderance...and I go so far off in my posts when I'm thinking new thoughts, seeing things in a new way, I rely greatly on the patience of the poster to whom I'm replying.

Like you.



LA

EO,

"As far as your H's resistance to MB, I'm not sure exactly what you mean."

H says that MB is a "man-haters" website and he doesn't get all the abbreviations (he's a microsoft systems engineer, go figure).

LA,

"Our MC explained there is a difference in crisis counseling from non-crisis counseling. Harley has plans and action due to marital crisis...most of us don't seek out preventive care when it comes to our marriages...usually only get to MC when we are in crisis, on the verge of losing our marriages.

Non-crisis counseling digs into the past in relation to the present. Which is why inner child work in our adult selves comes at non-crisis times. I think it furthers understanding of Harley's methods, shows the brilliance within them.

I also think it deepens intimacy through radical honesty...sharing what we remember, how we experienced it, and share with our partners when it affects us today."

So, here's the question: Would it be safe to say that someone with deep-seated FOO issues (like abuse) is more likely to opt for a self-destructive method (affair) of dealing with marital conflict? Is that maybe an indicator of who would choose adultery vs. addressing marital issues head-on? I realize that Dr Harley says we're all hardwired for affairs given the right circumstances. But wouldn't then most BS's have affairs because they're thrown into the "right circumstances?"

btw, I have to confess that I haven't gone back to review the Getting the Love..book.. so I've been off topic a lot. (I'm taking a couple of college courses again and my time has been a little stretched thin). Thanks for the compliment about posting only in the mornings; sometimes I think I'm a little too regimented in my schedules.

"I love it when my DH says, "Hey, I just flashed on a camping trip when I looked at the way the sun is hitting the wall right now." Brings sharing to replace persuading in my book. He doesn't have to convince me, take me back with him, or describe it bit by bit. I just know where he went, so I went there with him...because he shared."

I think it's great that your H feels safe enough to share moments like that with you. I'm glad (and maybe a little envious) that you could relax enough to "go there with him." I'm striving for that type of R with my H and that was a very good example for me.

BIO,

My DH won't do MB, either, only he doesn't consider it a man-haters website. He chooses not read here, though he does ask me about he concepts and we do POJA.

LOL at the acronymic distaste when he is drowning in acronyms! I hated them, too, when I worked for the government...and yet, a small part of me loved the speediness in which they communicated.


I believe all our FOO issues are deep-seated...and I'm of the experience, and therefore the mind, to believe just that...further, being a child of adultery, and seeing infidelity in my parents' marriage, added to this in my mind...that entitlment, seeing it exampled and not addressed. I don't know how to address your second question with "most BS's"...because it takes that formula, I believe, to cross the line... (Gimble said: the embodiment of an affair is entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect)...and if the BS doesn't lack the respect, doesn't create and maintain resentment, hardening it into entitlement...then no, I don't think that most BS's have As...what I am seeing is that five or ten years later they do have one, if they don't recover personally within their marriage.

Only the Harleys would have the stats. Doing recovery all the way through does affair-proof your marriage, I believe.

I haven't gotten my hands on my copy of the book yet, either. We're good.



BIO...stay safe and separate...you'll get there..took about two years from recommittment date to get there...and it comes and goes...I have no doubt you will be there in your marriage, in abundance. Because you already are.

LA

BIO, that's interesting, why does your H feel that it's a man-hater's site? Does he see you as a man-hater? Wanting connection with other man-haters to get together and man-hate? Really interesting, because I see MB as about enthusiasm and POJA, meaning there are no losers, only winners.

My H says MB is for people who are unhappy. That they should divorce if they are so unhappy in their marriages that they need to go to a website to talk about unhappy they are. So I asked him, does that mean you think I am so unhappy that I should divorce? He said yes. Good opportunity to listen and repeat, and I wonder why I didn't do that. I believe in the goal, to seek to understand, then to be understood. But I launched into I believe that this plan can restore our marriage, and that's why I go, to learn how to implement it to restore our marriage. Two people trying to get their own points across instead of learning from the other. That's okay. We're new everyday, and I can make it a goal today to seek to understand.

What if only one parent is addressing the issues. My DD(19), knows of the affair, H even apologized to her directly. My younger children don't know, but we (especially DS11 and I) do have some very deep conversations about morality...he's beginning to see "flaws" in my H as a parent, but still loves and admires the many positive attributes.

As far as the resentment...I still have it, but mostly about his reluctance to sort through his weaknesses. I can't see ever feeling entitled to an affair, but keep my guard up nonetheless. If I still have the resentment in 5 to 10 years, I would have to re-evaluate my decision to stay.



Thanks LA, I needed that encouragement.


EO,

This is going to sound like a great big ol' DJ. I think he uses that as an excuse not to work on issues and face the music. He does assume that when women talk with each other, it's to bash men...who wouldn't with all the men bashing jokes going on? He would probably consider discussing problems as "blaming the husband," because that's how he reacts regardless of how I bring issues up. He says that he'd "rather be poked in the eye with a stick than talk about relationships." I don't know if he thinks I hate men...I'll have to ask. Good question.

That was a very informative interaction you had with your H. I also like the "seek first to understand..." it gives me a prompt to think about Covey's "7 Habits..." course.

BTW,
Thank you both for posting here, I'm finding it very interesting and therapeudic (sp?).