Very WISE words, Sheba

I cannot believe all the responses and words of encouragement from all of you. Thank you, it really does help to know I am free to be crazy here.<P>H came home and confronted me about my phone call to Mia. (Sheba - I could have confessed before he brought it up, but I didn't) H says that a co-worker who knows both Mia and him saw her at work today and she was crying. (gee, poor baby) The co-worker said she only told him that she had gotten a berating phone call from someone who was pretty angry with her (well, again an honest statement) My H told me that although the co-worker didn't name who the caller was, he was convinced I was guilty. So I told him I did it. I also told him that I wanted her to hurt, as much as I was hurting and didn't know any other way to do it. As you can imagine, he was pissed. Delphi was right that he would defend her. And he did.<P>He keeps telling me that I'm unbalanced. I'm irrational. I need to "get over it", etc. etc. He continues to tell me that Mia was the one who broke off their relationship and he wishes that she hadn't. He told me that the wrong he did in having an affair with her doesn't compare to the hell I'm putting him through. And with that last statement he said, "I've got to get out of here", I can't take this bul...s...t anymore. And he left.<P>I should have figured in the long run, he would eventually do this. I guess it's all true - I drove him to leave me.<P>

I'm sorry he left tonight. Hopefully he'll return so that you can continue working on your marriage.<P>Can I ask, do you honestly feel better now that you called? I understand the need to have closure. Did you get it? Will you call again?<P>TL, you have EVERY RIGHT to be angry, especially since your H did defend her. If my H called the OM and made him cry, or beat the crap outta him, I WOULD NOT DEFEND HIM. That is the difference, I think. <P>I do hope he comes home to work with you because I know how much your marriage means to you.<P>Best wishes.<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Marriage: the most important contract you'll ever enter into, and the most sacred.<P><BR>

NB - Do I feel better calling? In a sense, I did it for me. The only thing I could have any control over. As far as closure - I'll never have closure if my husband is not in anyway showing any signs of wanting to tell me everthing about this affair or why he did it? I'm not an idiot. I contributed one heck of alot to the downfall of this marriage. <BR>Will I call her again? Doubt it. Look at how he reacted. Didn't quite have the end result I was hoping for. <P>Look, everyone, the one thing my husband did share with me about this affair during one of the few joint counseling sessions we went to is that he "loved" her. For him to feel this way, and then to admit it is a huge thing for him. He is not an overly emotional kind of man. So, I believe he still has these feelings for her. That is the biggest part of my anger. I wish that that love she feels for her was mine.

Tired Lady, I'm really sorry for what you're going through. Not just typing the standard as appropriate but truly sorry for your pain. I have the pain of my husband's rejection too but in a different sense and I won't even go there now.<P>Let me say this though, there are some of us that are in circumstances where we can't get the love of our spouse back although we try so hard over and over again. Heartbreaking and soul wrenching. I have finally come to the conclusion tonight that I can't control my H's actions, only mine and I will be okay. I'm not EVEN comparing your situation to mine but can't we both just accept that we can't control our spouse's and be the best WE can be without bitterness? I've lived too long with negative feelings and I don't know about you, but I'm tired of it. (Oops, you're tired lady so I guess you know of what I speak!). <P>Let's just take the bull by THE HORNS and start living life happily and in control of our emotions. The only future we can control is our own

Hi Tired Lady -<P>I am sorry for your H's reaction...can't say I am surprised though. They can't deal with some aspects of this whole thing just like we can't....<P>I think that what you may not realize fully is the fantasy factor and the commonality that betrayers feel and act and say when in an affair and after it's over.<P>You say that the fact that he says he loves her is what keeps your anger....Have you read other people's stories here? Do you not see virtually the same thing with a lot of those stories? <P>TL - what your H said is very common..a lot of people say/have said the same thing and then (after the affair and withdrawal) have discovered that the "love" they felt for the OP was part of some fantasy and/or was not a lasting kind.<P>Why is it then that you can't conceive that this "love" is part of Infidelity's symptoms? Why can't you understand that your H is in withdrawal and each time you bring up OW and the affair - you are opening a freshly closed wound? Have you not observed and learned from Harley and posters here that there are certain phases and steps to be gone through?<P>Gosh, I wish I could come over right now and talk with you and hug you and shake you till your teeth rattle!!! LOL!! (not really!!!) I just want you to see that you are personalizing his fantasy actions and words too much!!<P>Yes, of course they are personal to you - if there was no fantasy aspect to infidelity and if so many people didn't follow the same pattern and even say the same things....I would totally agree with you....but that is not the case.<P>There are patterns...I look at it as if I were looking at symptoms of an illness....I would not base my existance and my future on a possible "fantasy" period that my H is having....and neither should you. <P>So you see, TL...your H is not unique!!<BR>He has/is acting and saying things that most others in his position have...<P>What makes some of them get through their "love" for the OP? Probably the spouse that they have and the understanding and help that they receive....<P>We can get you there if you want.<P>I have an idea about what you can do at this point - don't know if you will like it but I will be writing it tomorrow (Codeine's kicking in)....<P>I would like you to think tonight about something....<P>DO YOU LOVE YOUR HUSBAND?<P>DO YOU WANT TO STAY MARRIED AND FIND EACH OTHER AGAIN or DO YOU WANT TO STAY IN THE HELL YOU ARE IN NOW AND LET HIM GO?<P>Think very hard and leave the OW anger out of it.....<P>This is YOUR life ....no one else but H and your kids matter.<P>BIG HUGS,<P>Sheba<P>PS - I'll be back tomorrow and hopefully we can get you two on the same track.<P>I care about you!!!! <P><BR>

If anyone is irrational and imbalanced, it is your H. I'm sorry he reacted in the way that he did. You did what you had to do for YOU, and no one else. I agree with you that, for your marriage to work, your H has to at least meet you half-way, in working on your marriage, which he wasn't doing.<P>Right now, it is unpredictable on what your H will do. I think the next step is to focus on you. Do things that make you happy. Spoil and pamper yourself. You are a special person who deserves to be loved. Why not start by loving yourself and be the wonderful person you want to be.<P>Hopefully, your H will see what a wonderful person you are and will wake-up from his fantasy land and wonder what he was doing there to begin with. My thoughts are with you...<p>[This message has been edited by NoTrust (edited October 15, 1999).]

TL and others...<P>Take a step back and look at this again. It is right out of a "Jerry Springer" show. W confesses to H that she is sleeping with OM. OM comes on stage and H and OM go at it beating on each other. However, neither is upset with W. This very similar to what we have here.<P>I can't generate any rage against OM, simply because he didn't do this to me. He had never met me. W was totally and absolutely responsible for what happened. OM just happened to be available. Any anger or rage that occasionally comes to mind is directed at W's behavior.<P>TL, I know this will sound harsh, but GET OVER IT!! Whether or not you want to work to save your marriage, you won't ever bring this to closure for yourself by blaming the OW.<P>Your H deliberately chose his actions. It doesn't matter how OW acted, whether she came on to him or was responsive to his overtures. You need to work with your H if you want to save the marriage. If you don't, then just work to get past it. Carrying this amount of rage against OW and acting on it is a cop-out on your part. You feel you need to blame someone(most of us betrayed feel that way), but it's counterproductive to your getting back on your feet.<P>Again, I apologize if this post is harsh, but it's the way I feel. I am sad for how you feel and hope dearly that you can start to put all of this behind you and start to re-build your life, with or without H.

I DO think that it is harsh to tell a betrayed person "to just get over it."<P>Also, the OW is EQUALLY responsible for her behavior. She made a conscience decision to intrude upon another's marriage. She could have done the right thing, and declined when propositioned, but she didn't.<P>Don't get me wrong. The H is EQUALLY responsible too. I think the reason why we blame the OP is because they are "the outsider."<P>We love our spouses and despite mistakes they make, we STILL love them, whereas, we have no sympathy for "the outsider."<P>TL is in a lot of pain and I can understand this, just like many others here, can understand.<P>I just think that TL needs to focus on loving herself now. Maybe the rest, will fall into place...

I think TL did what she needed to do. It is so easy for others to say " get over it"/<BR>SHE is the one living with this man day in and day out, and has to live with the frustration that her husand had an affair, is " in love" with Mia, and defends her!<BR>She has the right to tell Mia what she did to her life. Mia did ALOT of damage to this lady, and so did her husband. Not too easy to get over this !!<BR>WhoDat : I think you were very rude, I cannot believe what you wrote to TL,<BR>where's your compassion? Spend a day in TL's shoes, see what YOU would do. Then we can treat YOU like cr**, I'm sure that would make YOU feel better!?<BR>TL, I hope that you find happiness in your life, I am sorry you are going through this.

Before y'all get the wrong idea, I AM a betrayed and have felt in most ways just like TL and some of you. I just came to the realization that hatred of the OP doesn't fix anything. It just keeps one from dealing with what is coming from within.<P>If I thought there was any justification or pain-relief in it, I would have acted just like TL. I know she is in pain. I am there now. Saying "get over it" is indeed harsh, but it is good advice. You cannot work thru your feelings with your Sp if you are distracted by strong, unfettered negative feelings toward OP. These will unfailingly be directed eventually toward your Sp and be added to the negative feelings already there. It could mean the difference between reconciliation and divorce.<P>The exception to this is when OP has directed action toward you. At that point, it becomes personal and you should deal with it as such.<P>Sorry to be such a curmudgeon, but we have GOT to hold our spouses 100 percent responsible. I would agree that in the EMR, both parties share responsibility, but the spouse is the ONLY one with responsiblities to the marriage.

Heartpain - thanks for you kind words. I freely admit I have been a raving lunatic to live with. H has not come back yet. He called and talked to the kids and said he needed time to cool off. I believe the confrontation would have been far worse if he had stayed here. Anyway, I'm sad to say I'm still just as angry today as I was yesterday, but I won't be calling Mia anymore. Obviously that soured the marriage even more. Didn't think it was possible to make things worse but it did.

You did make things worse. I was right about him defending her, but here is something else I think I am right about. If you want to get back to any kind of a place where you feel you can work on things, you need to apologize to him for calling mia. It doesn't matter that you don't want to or don't think you should have to or that it's not fair. In your H's eyes, you attacked someone he loves and this made him very angry. You can say how it is wrong for him to feel this way until ou are blue in the face, and it won't change a thing. So, if you want to get him back in the house and have some kind of hope again, I would apologize. I would tell him that you realize it is between you and him and that you shouldn't have called mia and that you will never do it again. It is my bet that he will respond to this in a positive way.<P>Remember that I have had experience with this and I know how my STBH acted and how he felt. I hope you can learn from this advice. Put your anger aside and do what you have to do to get him back home, if you want him back home.

Forgot to say that I think it is total B*llsh*t that a friend happened to tell your H that mia was crying. I would bet the farm that she told him and that they still talk. By attacking her, you put her in a position to be able to call and cry to your H about what a mean horrible person you are. And, you see the results. I think you can start repairing it by apologizing to him for it, as I said, forgetting totally whether it is fair or not that you have to do it.

Delphi:<P>I am going to start a new post just to ask you a question. Why are you posting here on this board? Is there trouble in your "paradise"? Now that you have successfully taken a husband away from his wife and home, are you happy? Is your STBH happy? How long before you "got" him did you wait to announce your engagement? I guess this is something else I can look forward to...

TL<P>I am very sorry for your situation. The best situations when the betrayer spouse returns are when the affair died a natural death or returns because the betrayer decided to end the affair. In your situation your H has returned because he has been "divorced" by the OW, very quickly. He is not ready to work on the marriage yet. He is the one who must get over "it".<P>I am not condoning or condeming what you did, but your H needs now a most understanding friend and you should be that friend, not the OW.<P>It must be very frustrating having your H at home wishing he were elsewhere. My situation is somewhat similar in that the only time my wife is here is when the OM is not available, and she will not leave until we have a separation agreement. I very often feel the same way about the OM as you do about the OW and have said distasteful things to him when we have bumped into each other, face to face. <P>IMHO you need patience and have to work on giving your husband reasons to want to be with you and begin by being that understanding friend.<P>I know what your H did was wrong and what she did was wrong, but you must forget about her for now. From what I've read on these boards the male betrayers generally are less understanding of the betrayed spouse than their female counterpart. I hope you and your H can help each other move forward to a better future for you both.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>From what I've read on these boards the male betrayers generally are less understanding of the betrayed spouse than their female counterpart. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I agree 100%, and will even go so far as to say that it works the other way around too. When my H cheated I was far more forgiving more quickly, more willing to do ANYthing to put my marriage back together, than my H has been toward me now.<P>TL, <P>I was so hoping to hear that your H returned and that you could work it out. I'm very sorry about that. <P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Marriage: the most important contract you'll ever enter into, and the most sacred.<P><BR>

TL<P>My STBH and his STBXW read Dr. Harley's books and worked on the program. I had ended our affair but he knew he had to end it and that it was wrong, too. I tried to get on with my life and had no contact with him. After a period of time of working on their problems, they just could not overcome them. I admit I was one of the problems because my STBH is in love with me but I was not one of the problems because we truly did end all contact. He left and did not contact me again until after he had left. Even though we had no contact, I know he had his ways of finding out what I was doing and who I was dating, etc. The time from her finding about us, which is when we ended it, and him moving out for good was a year and a half. <P>I knew they were doing the Marriage Builder type program and I was in so much pain over everything that I just wanted to read everything and anything about affairs just to feel that I had some control over my pain. I just wanted to understand how this happened, why I ended up doing something I never thought I would do, and I wanted to feel some hope for the pain to end. Dr. Harley's books made the most sense to me of any books. And believe me, I read about 100. <P>I don't post here very often and I only post when I think I really can contribute something that will help. I don't want to tell my whole story because there are so many here that are hurting and I would only become an outlet for their pain. But, I really do feel my experience could help some people and that is when I post.<P>Right to this day, my STBH's STBXW calls me the whore whenever she refers to me to him. For instance, she might say "I tried to call you last night but you and the whore must have been out on the town". She never stopped referring to me this way even when they were trying to work on their problems. Now whether or not she has a right to call me a whore is one thing. But, believe me it did nothing to help her relationship with her H. He loved me and he cringes I know, every time he hears her call me that. I can see it. And it builds resentment in him towards her. A man's natural desire is to protect the women he feels he loves. If you attack one of them he is going to want to protect her.<P>Please don't ask me to tell my story because I won't do that. What I will do is post sometimes when I see a situation I think I could help with. Like it or not, my own experience as an OW is a part in all this.<P>I really believe in Dr. Harley's advice even though it didn't work for my H. I want our relationship to work and so I follow it as much as possible with us and so does he.<P>Del

Awoken, NB - Thanks for your thoughts. I think this may be the beginning of the end.<P>Delphi - Your post makes me so sad for my current state of affairs. I believe that you could be Mia, the OW who calls off her affair because she knew it was wrong, only to sit back and watch the destruction of a marriage and feel like she had not contributed to it's demise. <BR>My H, and the couselor on separate occasions have both said that our "problems" and the downfall of this marriage occurred long before H ever entered into this affair. He says he didn't plan on it happening. It just did. (of course) I guess I was so consumed with other stuff for myself I ignored him. Now there is an entire continent dividing us. Mia, IMO, is the most intellegent one here. H shared all our problems, ones that have nothing to do with the affair with her. She shared her grief over the death of her husband with him, her struggles as a single mom, and they shared her successess at her job. He admires her and her determination to make something out of a tragedy in her life. All I do is give him sh*t and constant nagging, and misery.<BR>So, Delphi, I read between the lines. Your STBH was probably just like my H, and many others here on this site. I'm sure Mia would be interested in your story. It has the ending that perhaps she's wanting.<P>Thanks again for being so candid with me.

Hi Tired Lady -<P>How are you doing now? Did you get some sleep last night? You need to get some rest and make sure that you eat something!!!<P>I am sorry that he has not come home yet, it is good that he called though.<P>I think you're right that things could have been worse if he had stayed last nite.....time to regroup the emotions.<P>Did you think on what I asked you?<P>I think that this incident can be used to the advantage of both of you...this is a good turning point stage if you want it to be. As I said here before, what you have both been doing is not working....do you want to change it?<P>Here's a way to start to change things for the better.<P>Since he seems to think that you are the one who is unbalanced - I would agree with him....after all when HE BROUGHT OW into YOUR LIVES..yes, that through off your balance as well as the balance of the marriage!!! DId He think that anything less would be the result? <P>As far as the wrong he did not comparing to the hell you are putting him through... HOW WOULD HE KNOW? Besides that ONE MAJOR question, how are you supposed to "just get over it" when he won't tell you exactly what "IT" is?<P>From the two previous paragraphs I wrote, it is quite evident that your H still retains some selfish minded ideas, right? Granted he is (and we will say "is" at the moment for this discussion OK) home with you and the kids - maybe he feels that that is some sort of "trying" on his part....<P>I agree with you that it really is not due to the fact that if OW hadn't stopped things.....he wouldn't be "trying" anything with the marriage...<BR>He is probably thinking that he is being some sort of martyr by "putting up" with your anger and such.....but in reality, he is causing his own martyrdom!!!!<P>He has put you in this "box" as I call it...HE goes outside the marriage and breaks the vows and commitment (wall #!). HE "steals" the love, attention, affection, time and respect that were yours and gives them away (wall#2). HE creates an atmosphere of lies between the two of you and a tenseness in you, the children, the house and himself (wall #3) and then HE is rejected and decides that all he has brought into your lives is supposed to just disappear because he doesn't want to face it. (wall #4).<P>So, presto - there you are in this "box" that HE built around you....Your spirit is trapped within it.<P>So, by the anger and bitterness and hurt, I am seeing a woman who is desparately trying to claw her way out of this "box"....It is an instinctual and normal reaction, do not beat up on yourself for it happening to you.<P>Now you are at the point where you are realizing that the instinctive "clawing" is not going to work - the walls are too thick (H's head is too mired in withdrawal to start breaking down the walls)...<P>So, it's time to start using your own ideas to figure a way out. The only way out is to get him to let you out...to do that you have to somehow get through his mired brain with talking. He must be shown that he can take down the walls piece by piece......it's the first few bricks that are the hardest to remove and if you get him to take out one or two, he will start to be able to see you within those walls.<P>Right now, in his head - you are not seen for who you have always been to him up until just before the affair....he has made a vision of you with only bad traits and does not include any good ones because that would not let him justify his actions and the pain he is causing you.<P>With the first couple of bricks gone - there is a hole through which he can see the real you, the person he has loved for so long and all the goodness that you have. This glance at you will enable him to tear down the rest of those bricks in the walls much faster.<P>So, what am I saying....you have to initiate conversation with the goal of letting him resee his wife...the real you...the happy loving you ...the friend who was there always. THEN he will be able to allow himself to be open and sharing with you because you will once again be his "reality" instead of this "fantasy" world he is in now.<P>How to initiate this communication...I think that the best route for you would be a letter. There is too much anger and hurt between you both to do this effectively face to face. He has seen the hurt and the anger....he retains the visions of the anger to use against you in his own mind and this continues the justifications.<P>I have some ideas of the contents of the letter and before I go nuts writing it all out....is this something that you would consider doing? I will help you write it and not only will it help with H but you will be surprised with how much better you will feel.....<P>Let me know and I will help you get it done tonight....I am here!!! <P>Just keep in mind that the cylce can be broken and will be if something changes in a constructive way.<P>Hugs,<P>Sheba<P>PS - If you want - EMail me at Sheba101@webtv.net and we can do it privately in case you are concerned of who will see it.