I'm clear.

I was just saying Dr Harley doesn't talk much about the OP because frankly the marriage is not about the OP, so there really isn't much for him to say.

hu7668 indicated he was looking for some instruction from Dr Harley to blame the OP.

I agree with him, it's not there. That doesn't mean the OP shares no blame. Dr Harley just doesn't waste his time talking about someone who can do nothing to help the marriage, except by being in a state of perpetual NC.

So Dr Harley not saying anything one way or another about blaming the OP is meaningless.

If this guy is really an IT profession, he should know that logically speaking, just because something is not seen, doesn't mean it's not there.

Just because I don't see a fault in a computer system, all that proves is that I've not see the fault. So just because he's not seen where Dr Harley puts blame on the OP is no indication there is no blame to be shared by the OP.

Personally, I think he doesn't because it's pointless to blame the OP. It keeps the OP part of the discussion, which goes against what NC is all about.

One wants the memory of the OP to fade away. This can't happen if the BS is harboring anger and obsessed with the OP.

This is one of the few things I agree with from hu7668. It does NO GOOD to focus on the OP if you are marriage building.

They own blame, big deal. If you are MB'ing, you have bigger issues than apportioning blame to the OP.

Not to mention it's likely to open you up to LB'ing, and that is NOT good for the marriage.

That's all I'm saying.

Right, but that was never the issue. And that is not what hu7668 is saying. The issue is blame, not focusing on the OP at the exclusion of marital recovery. What WILL interfere with recovery is if my WS tells me that I cannot blame an OP who just knifed me in the back but that I AM responsible.

Even so, OF COURSE there will be focus on the OP by the BS. It would be ridiculous to expect otherwise. Do we tell the rape victim "oh, don't blame him!! don't ever focus on your rapist, it interferes with your recovery!" That would be nuts. psychoville. Betrayed spouses do tend to focus on their rapists, but that is more likely to contribute to their recovery, rather than IMPEDE IT. Working on recovery and having a HEALTHY RESENTMENT against your rapist are not mutually exclusive practices.

Show me a WS who does not take accountability for their crimes against the OP spouse and I will show you someone who is NOT in recovery. Not even close..

He was looking for ways to shut up board members from blaming OPs and using the fact that Dr Harley doesn't say "blame the OP" to achieve that end. He doesn't believe the OP should be blamed because HE does not hold himself responsible for his crimes against the OWH. He is protecting his OW. He is not asking this to achieve recovery, but to silence blamers.

To me it's just like the do you want to be right, or do you want to be married question.

I think in his own, twisted way, he's stumbled on to a truth.

His motives are suspect, as a WS, no doubt. But the kernel of truth is that it is fruitless to dwell on blaming the OP.

Many here DO EXACTLY that. I did that when I was still married to my now former wife.

It did absolutely nothing to restore the marriage. It was wasted emotional energy.

So you are 100% correct they own some blame.

But for anyone MB'ing to focus on this is counter productive to MB'ing.

This is the assessment I see that hu7668 is making.

I know folks who were raped and the best thing for them was when they no longer saw images of their attacker in their dreams and in the faces of folks around them.

It doesn't happen overnight, and the anger for the OP will not dissipate overnight either.

But I don't agree that it does any good when it comes to MB'ing.

It doesn't do any good to stuff it down either. So it has to come out and be processed in a healthy manner. And if one is trying to MB, that's an admittedly difficult task.

But the OP has to "go away" for both the WS and the BS for complete recovery. Not just physically, but emotionally as well. For both!

The OP will never "go away" for either. Both the WS and the BS will always carry their memories of the OP. The key is understanding eveyone's role in the situation so precautions can be put in place to avoid repeating mistakes. HU's unwillingness to consider that the OP contributed to the affair or his wife's pain makes it hard for him to understand his own vulnerabilities or really empathize with his wife's pain and how the other woman impacts her.

I read on another thread where a poster was given an assignment by Steve Harley to think of any possible situation where the OP might show up and how she would handle that situation. In other words, establish extraordinary precautions. That doesn't sound like ignoring the OP in recovery. How can HU establish those precautions if he doesn't even see the OP as a factor in the equation?

Again, that is not the issue. He is not interested in recovery at all, he is interested in running protection for his OW and avoiding accountibility for his crimes against the OWH.

I don't agree that its "fruitless" to dwell on someone who just raped you and tried to destroy your family. It only becomes a problem when it impedes recovery or causes the victim to be so angry that they act out, which is the rare exception.

To force oneself to not think about the rapist is counterproductive and very dysfunctional. A person who has been assualted in this way will be obsessed with the assaulter for some time. That is how normal recovery evolves. Over time the resentment and hatred diminish. This is part of the grief process. Having feelings of resentment is a normal, healthy reaction.

Mrs Z seems to understand the impact the OP had on her husband.

Excellent points, Exodus!

I would also add that Steve Harley and Dr Harley have never told a BS, to my knowledge, that they should STUFF normal feelings of resentment towards the OP. While the OP is to be kept out of sight, it would be unrealistic to imagine that the OP could be kept out of mind.

But the bottom line is that any healthy normal person can and should BLAME the OP for his/her crimes against them. It would be ridiculous to think otherwise.

We are NOT discussing the morality or lack thereof of premarital sex...AND NOT ALL DATING OR INFIDELITY INVLOVES SEX. We are talking about the morality or culpability of the OP. Can you dispute what I have said about the WS being able to fool those closest to him and how that pales in comparison to their ability to fool another person???

Whenever I see a WS defend the OP, it tells me that they have a self esteem problem. They derive their self worth from what others think of them and if the OP, who thought so highly of them, is not a good and worthwhile person, then it destroys their self esteem.

The chain is "OP is good, OP likes me, so I must be good". Rather then address the later connection (OP likes me, so I must be good), which is the unhealthly part. They attempt to bolster the first connection (OP is good, OP likes me).

Deriving your self worth from what other people think of you is unhealthy because it tends to make people unauthentic and its not sustainable.

I imagine people who defend OP's who know their AP is married have already concluded that the OP is not a good person (or at the very least a person acting in a bad way). They just can't face what they translate that into and what it says about themselves. Which is "OP is bad, OP likes me, so I must be bad."

I would guess when people like this stumble in to a community that has generally accepted that OP's are not a wholesome bunch, it stings. They feel compelled to defend OP. They mask it as not being part of recovery, or relevent, but in the end, all the really want is for people to say "yeah, OP's are a fine bunch." That way, they can keep their self esteem in tact.

medc,
I can see that. I think once you've gone through it though, your suspicion radar is alot higher.

The only time that I would have respect for an OP would be if they RAN AS FAST AS THEY COULD from the WS once they found out.

And I'm sure you chased that woman off! I can only imagine.

Just to be clear...I DO believe that OP are not good people. I think they are scum suckers that deserve every bit of scorn that comes their way. People can change for the better...but while they are knowingly having an affair with another person's spouse, they are pond scum.

FWIW,

I'd like to remind folks that I was the BS, not the wayward spouse. I worked with Steve Harley.

Not once did he say to focus, examine or perform any kind of exercise that was about the OM.

His focus was on two things, my eliminating any LB's and my trying to make deposits in my WW's Love Bank.

I don't deny the emotional aspects and judgments about an OP's behavior.

I would not argue against such perceptions being wrong or inaccurate.

My point is, it's a fruitless exercise. It's wasted energy. And, if taken to an extreme, it can damage your marriage if you being to LB as a result of having your buttons pushed dwelling on the OP.

That's all I'm saying.

Should hu.... defend his OP? Of course not.

But wouldn't it be better if he were to focus his energy on how he's hurt his wife, rather than defending the OP? Of course!

If his wife were to attack the OP in his presence, there is a chance he'll come to her defense.

If she were to talk to him about his behavior, and only his behavior, and not giving much if any credit for her behavior, then there is no wiggle room for the WS.

For any BS to focus on the OP just gives the WS a chance to either make excuses or defend.

Leave the OP out of it. NC includes not even bringing up the fact there was an OP in my opinion. It's all about the WS's behavior. Nothing else matters.

If the WS doesn't correct his/her behavior, who the OP is is meaningless. There could be a whole string of OP's.

I'm not saying it's easy. I'm not saying one is wrong to be mad at the OP.

I'm saying if allowed to become an obsession, it will block any potential recovery.

EE, this misses the point again. You worked with Steve on marital recovery steps, not personal recovery. Blaming the OP is a matter of personal recovery. One must blame the OP and deal with their resentment in order to recover. Steve does not work with couples on personal recovery. It makes no sense to say that one shouldn't BLAME the rapist just because it never came up in your exercises.

I assure you that Steve would NEVER tell a BS to "not blame the OP" for the harm she/he committed. That would be ridiculous.

Simply put, a normal, healthy person will blame their rapist and it will take time to deal with the resentment. Nowhere do the Harleys EVER say that one shouldn't BLAME the OP or feel a natural resentment towards them.

EE, denying natural, healthy feelings is not healthy and will only impede recovery. It is dysfunctional and does nothing to serve a healthy recovery.


No, it would be irrational and not conducive to mental health to "leave the OP out of it." I sort of doubt we would tell a rape victim that she should "leave the rapist out of it." That would be silly.

And no one here has suggested that any BS bring up the OP to the WS. Again, NOT THE ISSUE!

medc,

You just love to argue don’t you?

EE simply meant that if someone wasn’t married to someone else and was having sex with them they were already wrong, no need to take it further. No need to determine if the person they were having sex with was married or not. He spoke from his background as a Catholic. He spoke based on what God says about fornication in the Bible.

Now just so you don’t start another argument that not all people believe in Christianity, there are many other religions that frown on fornication and pre-marital sex. And for those that don’t have those morals well only time will tell.

Now for your need to be right about things…

You are right that just dating someone isn’t committing adultery. And not all dating involves sex. EE never said anything about that, you are twisting his words to instigate something. So you are free to continue dating. And yes it is possible that a person can fool (lie to) another about their marital status when accepting. However, I don’t think that EE even had a question about that. Sorry EE for speaking for you. I don’t even think that most posters disagreed with you about that. Maybe EE if you were to post something agreeing with medc on this one he’ll feel better.

Oh! And if I can disagree on one more thing… Personally I think that OP’s are not “pond scum” I think that they are actually the sticky stuff that holds the “pond scum” to the bottom of the pond.

Please continue with putting blame on the OP. Personally this is what I believe.

The BS has to accept blame for anything they did to help create a bad environment in the M. Rarely is there a case where the BS has zero blame. But I guess they could exist.

The WS is also to blame for anything they did to help create a bad environment in the M.

The WS is 100% to blame for their choice to have an A.

The OP is to blame for having an intimate relationship with a married person if they knew they were married.

The OP is to blame if the had sex with someone regardless of whether or not that person was married.

There is plenty of blame to go around when it comes to affairs.


Have a great day!

S&C

This is a marital recovery site.

So the advice I give and the observations I make are with respect to marital recovery.

I don't think I miss the point at all. The point of this place is marital recovery.

I'm dead on target, staying focused on marital recovery.

You may be right about personal recovery. Yet this is not a personal recovery site. Steve was concerned about my personal well being as well. He suggested I see a Dr if I felt suicidal, possibly getting on AD's.

So I wouldn't say SH was unconcerned with my personal recovery. He was concerned.

But you are right, I'm approaching this from a MB/marriage recovery perspective, and dwelling on the contribution of the OP is unlikely to contribute to a stronger marriage.

I've been clear that I'm speaking in that narrow perspective, and not in terms of personal recovery. I said nothing of personal recovery, as far as I can recall.

Actually, my ex-wife was Catholic, private school and all. Didn't seem to grow after being planted. She didn't seem to take the Sacrament of Marriage seriously. Or perhaps that is her "get out of jail card" since she can claim based on the churches teaching that she was not really married to me since it was not in the Catholic church, but in a Baptist ceremony. Perhaps it doesn't count for her. Who knows for sure?

I was baptist, poor and public school. Seemed to stick for the most part.

Not perfect, by any stretch.

FWIW.

Sorry about that EE. I stand corrected. Let me fix that.


"He spoke from his background as a Baptist."


S&C

Enlighted_Ex, I think its important to accept that a normal healthy person WILL blame her victimizer. Doing so does not impede recovery, but trying to pretend that the OP carries no blame is not healthy or rational. No BS should be asked to stuff their feelings and Steve Harley and Dr Harley have never asked any BS to stuff their normal,natural feelings in my 7 years of being here.

I don't think its a good idea to tell a rape victim they shouldn't blame their rapist anymore than I think its a good idea to tell a grieving BS they shouldn't blame their attacker. That helps no one.

When I was in therapy (imagine that) my therapist said your life is alot like driving. You tend to go where you are looking.

So if you focus on the OP, instead of focusing on where you want to be, you are unlikely to get where you want to be.

Maybe that doesn't work for everyone.

However, I think it works for most.

I can't tell you where or where not to look or to focus your energies. I can tell you I was advised to look at where I wanted to be and to focus my time, talent and treasure on that.

I believe the same is true regarding any sort of focus on the OP. It takes your eyes off of the real destination.

And to be clear, I've never said the OP doesn't deserve blame. I simply disagree with those who think apportioning blame to the OP is a fruitful exercise. I think it's a waste of time, as it takes the focus off of what was going on in the marriage and how a couple will navigate through recovery.

The OP rightfully deserves blame, but that blame does nothing to recover the marriage.