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LA

So much to take in. Did you really repeat back all this type of stuff to your DH? I just can't think that fast on my feet when we're having these talks. It's good for me just to stay away from the AO, DJ and LBs. I pride myself on that in itself. I'm nowhere near being able to think that fast in the middle of a talk. It all makes so much sense when I can stop and think about things and prepare a response but on the fly? I want to write all these things you say down on a letter and give it to her but I don't think it carries the weight of spoken words does it? She doesn't like my notes anyway, I think they make her feel reality too much. I think I'm going to write her anyway.

I have so much work to do to respond to your posts, I have so much to say but it is late right now, please forgive my tardiness. I would like to address a couple of things though.
 Quote:
I hear you saying she is unwilling to practice...what did she say when you asked for her to do communication exercises with you each week? How about those 15 hours of UA? Your plan remains...your goal is yours...when we don't make ourselves take the steps, we fail our plan...our plan doesn't fail us.
The plan is mine alone, there is no "we". One cannot Tango alone without a partner. 15 hrs of undivided attention, hmmm, we get 15 hrs together, more actually, doing everyday things trying to feel as normal as we can, I'm happy with that. UA and working on our marriage? I like to think that time together no matter what, is a plus for us. I think there is a misconception that me and WW have made a recovery agreement that just isn't working, that is not the case. There is no agreement to work on anything, the only thing that has been agreed upon is that we are here, for now, and that SOMETHING will happen SOMETIME. It's like being in a room full of fuel vapors, just the smallest spark can cause a huge explosion. But if we stay real still for awhile, small cracks will dissiate the fumes and it will be safe to move around and cause sparks, because nothing is going to explode. Thats me in a nutshell, I'm trying to be around when the fumes go away. Thats my master plan, to still have a marriage that I can maybe try to help salvage and resurrect into a marriage that can maybe be saved if there is one left to save. Do you follow me? I have nothing except the positive things I take from the now, as you put it. I have much to be happy for when i look at today. As long as I stare at the ground and look no further than my feet, I can find happy things. Any further out than that is where things get a little fuzzy.

I understand most of what you're telling me LA. It's just that much of it just doesn't matter to her. She isn't trying to save anything, she tells me that straight up. She is just here, waiting to start her new retired life away from here and maybe a spark may return. She says she feels dead, numb is the word she uses. NUMB, doesn't care about anything but herself and being alone and away from any stress, pressure thinking, period, her words not mine. I don't take those things in, I see and live it everyday, some days are good some suck. Some days she's really nice, even loving, how do I take that? How do I not get excited and set myself up for utter devastation and pain, again. If I act indifferent, she has no reason to continue the behavior. "Why act loving if it doesn't make him happy?" "if he's just going to be unhappy, why waste energy pretending to be loving, he acts the same when I'm not loving so whats the use. But if I get excited and respond to her loving, I get smacked in the soul by reality. She doesn't want me touching her, she doesn't even like me telling her I love her, she says it hurts, awww.

Should I write her a letter saying all these things? Will it have the same effect? I don't know. I'd really like to say these things to her but saying them outloud after the fact, when she has already forgotten what she's said is useless really. But if she read them and I presented them in a respectful and non-threatening tone, maybe she could take some in and reflect. I don't know, just wonder what you think. I alwyas thought letters were a good way to communicate without the pressure of response but she really got upset the last couple of times, not sure why, like I said, maybe reading it and seeing it in her face didn't make her feel good.

Thanks again LA, I need some time to process, I'll respond very soon.


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I'm lost. I thought Steve Harley said to stay away from all relationship talk. Did I miss something?

Apparently, I'm in the minority here, but I disagree that telling your wife how much you are hurting, etc. is going to help. I firmly believe that your wife is not ready to work on the marriage right now and that is wrong to not accept this. I know you're hurting Dino, but I think if you want to have a future together, you just have to hang on until she gets to a place where she is ready to deal with the marriage. You can't demand things on your timeline. That doesn't mean that she always gets to control things or anything crazy like that. It just means that you have to go at the slowest person's pace. It could have been you that isn't ready and then I would be telling her to wait for you. It just happens to be that right now it's not.

Sorry, I'm editing my post because I just wanted to add that maybe a helpful way to look at this might be the way we heal our bodies. When you get hurt, your body puts a scab over the wound. If you keep picking at it, it will not heal. if you pick at it occasionally, it might eventually heal, but you leave an ugly scar. You pushing relationship talk is like picking the scab. The best way to heal and not leave as bad a scar is to NOT PICK THE SCAB DARN IT!!!! Just my 2 cents.

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Snuggle,
Knowing you're still helping Dino makes me feel good for him. You're such a breath of fresh air. Miss talking to you but glad I don't need you all that much.
Fiori!!


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fiori!!! I miss you too!! I wish there was a social area on here where we could interact more casually. You are a sweetie and I'm so glad you are doing well. If I were friends w/ anyone here in real life, it would be you for sure \:\)

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Well then move to the East Coast and I'll look you up! It's amazing what a blessing and a curse this website can be. Sometimes I feel like it stirs me up and not necessarily in a good way, but most of the time I feel so lifted up by the encouragement from all. Oh, and the occassional whoopin'.


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 Originally Posted By: SnuggleFresh
I'm lost. I thought Steve Harley said to stay away from all relationship talk. Did I miss something?

Apparently, I'm in the minority here, but I disagree that telling your wife how much you are hurting, etc. is going to help. I firmly believe that your wife is not ready to work on the marriage right now and that is wrong to not accept this. I know you're hurting Dino, but I think if you want to have a future together, you just have to hang on until she gets to a place where she is ready to deal with the marriage. You can't demand things on your timeline. That doesn't mean that she always gets to control things or anything crazy like that. It just means that you have to go at the slowest person's pace. It could have been you that isn't ready and then I would be telling her to wait for you. It just happens to be that right now it's not.

Sorry, I'm editing my post because I just wanted to add that maybe a helpful way to look at this might be the way we heal our bodies. When you get hurt, your body puts a scab over the wound. If you keep picking at it, it will not heal. if you pick at it occasionally, it might eventually heal, but you leave an ugly scar. You pushing relationship talk is like picking the scab. The best way to heal and not leave as bad a scar is to NOT PICK THE SCAB DARN IT!!!! Just my 2 cents.
Snuggle, I completely understand your perspective, and it could be applicable. But he's saying that he's getting so distraught that he's starting to not like her any more. To be so upset that he can't see the forest for the trees any more. And it's been what, 8 or 9 months? With absolutely not one word of commitment from her? The only good thing I've ever heard her say (from his description) is that she sometimes talks about future plans. Aside from that, she steadfastly refuses to even meet him halfway.

I totally get the pressure and grief she's under. But he's sounding more and more like someone ready to cut and run. So I think a Plan B, if nothing else, would preserve what's left.

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Dino,

I want to fully support Snuggle's suggestion...and to say why we limited it to 20 minutes a week...like a pressure valve for me...and I got a love deposit from WH because he agreed and stuck to it, also. So it wasn't all or nothing...we negotiated it. I then knew I had a place and time to ask questions (lots were A-related, of course, 'cuz he was still in it) and I wasn't looking at months ahead with nada.

What did Steve say about R talk?

In a much earlier post, I shared with you that I waited three months for my WH to decide whether he was leaving the marriage for OW, leaving for himself or staying to work on the marriage. Which is how I saw myself in your situation (and I couldn't comprehend doing so for seven plus months when three months was excruciating). During that waiting time, I did my plan...which included 15 hours of UA in the form of recreational time together...playing...and this was during his withdrawal, too; I did listen and repeat when he spoke, shared...I committed to it as a way for me to really learn to listen...to hear clearly, not take into myself what wasn't mine...and yes, it was really tough. Slowed down my response (I became seemingly ponderous wheretofore, he was the slow to speak one), made my goal clarity--not to control, cure or cause him anything...to really hear his statements and repeat back. Sounds odd writing it...sounds respectful speaking it. Going for clarification or confirmation changed everything for ME.

Including changing us from enemies back into allies...for to truly hear him new, without assuming he's saying the same phrases again, that act of respect and love was evident, different. Not responding to his stuff, truly hearing it. That's why I shared what held me together back then--strive first to understand, then be understood. All my life, gotta own it, I did that backwards. If only they would understand me, then they wouldn't think/feel/believe/react as they do.

Backwards living--Dino, I lived what I'm talking about.

Personal recovery requires you to do different; choose differently than before and where you chose from. Just does...that's ongoing even when your spouse hasn't recommitted to anything. And even when DH did so, on 12-15-04, he did it angrily, citing his love for his son (still at home) and his belief that ultimately, this would be the path to his happiness. He didn't want to, still worked with OW, and it was two more weeks before he transferred and NC really began. He told me that night that he had already made up his mind to commit to working on the marriage (for two years) weeks before that, but didn't see any point in telling me of his decision.

And I had previously thought this man, my spouse, was incapable of overt cruelty. I knew well my own to him...so understanding he was able and willing to act cruelly was a revelation. Didn't end anything--began seeing him as a whole, respecting all that he was, is and will be...knowing him anew. Two weeks after NC, I got more revelations about the A, and a few along the way straggled out for two months more.

Yet here we are married today...in a very different way...enjoying our grandbabies, our adult children (okay, so YS is borderline), and facing new challenges as a team, instead of enemies. I chose each day along the way to act differently than before, to break my patterns...and yeah, they come back in the form of struggling, bad-down days. I know. I remember. Same thing can happen today, even. Depends on where I spend my thoughts...investing them in his stuff or my own. Check myself or check him.

No, I'm not supposing you're anywhere near recovery. I don't believe she is in NC. I believe she calls him, still. Again, the anger, the cruelty didn't stop until WH went truly NC...and I verified for a long time. Now, about twice a year. The fog doesn't go away until contact is in place along with withdrawal. Both are necessary to really begin marital recovery. Not personal recovery.

The UA was essential for me, too...so I could pull myself into the present...and RC really helped me to do that...I could feel my DJs at work, pulling me into the past or the future while we played...and we shot pool, air hockey, darts; took walks around a big lake in our area, did our exercises, which we came to love and depend on...and yes, we were doing them before he recommitted. Why? Who doesn't want to become skilled at communication? Another partnering action we both took...and my DH gets huge kudos for doing all of that stuff, even though he didn't feel like doing it, firmly believed that I would never forgive him, would punish him if he stayed...and he stayed present, anyway. To this day, he tells me in tender moments how he remains blown away by my changes back then through now. And I tell him the same.

Last night we watched "The Diving Bell and the Butterfly" in subtitles, and I went downstairs afterwards, pretty shook up, and he followed...and I wasn't present and was scurrying around the kitchen for water, and he had to say, "Hey, turn around, please." And I did, and he held my face and looked in my eyes and he said, "I love you" and kissed me in this lovely, focused, connective way...and it was worth four years of anything. I promise you. For I looked in his eyes, thinking, "This is my husband, my blessing" and said, "I love you" and kissed him back. (The end of the movie was a bit of a shock to us.)

Allies, Dino. Partners. No, it isn't pretty, fair or guaranteed. I just know that after two years had he chosen to end the marriage, I would be okay. I'd broken my enmeshment, injected respect, learned a ton, and was okay with loving, anyway. No longer caught in the tit for tat, giving to get. I couldn't do "normal" back then...our normal wasn't healthy, respectful or connecting. I had to do Harley's advice, and as you can see, I'm really grateful for it and my choice to live it...not dependent on WH's response at the time. That was the hardest and best possible achievement, in my book.

I remember those vapors and fearing explosions, Dino. I do get where you are at, the eggshells and all. I remember having to pull my focus BACK onto what was within my control, my own explosions. Each time we interacted, with me listening and repeating, using my own "I" statements for my stuff, without AO'ing or DJing...my WH took another look at me. I earned back trust in myself and from my partner for ending my ways. Even though I remember blowing it twice in a big way in those two months. And when I blew it little...refuting instead of repeating back...reactive...I would catch myself and own it--hey, look at the old me popping up. Not what I want, DH. You were saying <blank>--because I wanted with all my heart to not fail my own code, not be who I was...and I'm not.

You may not have the desperate motivation I did, Dino. You may well believe that you have not LB'd as harshly, been as cruel or abominable as I know I was (taking inventory for six months and finding more throughout the years posting here in myself); maybe that is what is behind your craving for her to get on board or get off the ship. I do understand that...and I fought for the NC...verified when it happened to the best of my ability, and still found out more contact, more ILYs and was bold enough to set boundaries in our home...where he had to go outside in the 30-degree weather to do so. He abided those, even in the fog, btw. I had a deadline you don't have, Dino. Maybe that is another important difference. Because he agreed to go to MC together to make his decision, the MC required he give me a rough estimate of when he would make his decision by, which was by the first of the coming year. Then MC looked at me and said, "What's your choice, then?" And I answered, "I accept that."

No magic pill...knowing I signed up for the wait time, the unknown, my choice...helped a great deal. I truly wanted to have the opportunity to be the partner I believe I could be and hadn't been. Maybe you've been the great partner, Dino. So this unknown feels like a constant rub, put-down, torment. My perspective, my hunger for the opportunity was what I would focus on when the torment (non-affection, unkindness, reading the love letters he wrote to her, new pictures taken of her two days before recommitting) approached untenable. God wasn't finished with me yet. At any time I could have cried "Uncle!" and chosen differently. I didn't. I held on and began posting here on MB, and JustLearning and Pepperband posted to me...helped me see my DJs kicking my own heart, adding to the torment and disrespect of my DH.

So I do that for you, too. Passing it on.

I listed my transgressions throughout our marriage, and there were many; I picked the largest and studied them, then wrote them down, said what my stinkin' thinkin' was, and why and how I would not do them again. MC had us do a resentment timeline which cleared away a ton of what was weighing me down, adding to my spinning and pendulum of stay/go. That helped me stay focused on me, my goal...and find WH's very presence (for he had moved out for a month) a treasure, a chance...an opportunity. Each time he agreed to go play, I felt gratitude, blessed...might be the last time...turns out, it wasn't. Each exercise, each joint MC session, all blessings above what I could possibly deserve, given my own past actions.

Helped owning all of my choices to the MC, too...like an accountability partner...and MC began the SA treatment, too, with WH, even in the fog...I remember WH stating he was an SA and then telling me, before recommitment, of a secret from his childhood. 18 years I knew him and did not know that. Stunned me.

I'm not telling you what matters to her or doesn't...I'm speaking to you, for you, about you, Dino...neither of us really knows what matters to her...nor do I think does she right now...the fog persists with contact, with the maintaining resentment and thinking magically (that life just happens instead of owning our responsibility and limits). Others here can direct you to do this so she may think/feel/believe/perceive...I don't. I can't. Wasn't that way for me to recovery. It WAS that way throughout my marriage, which was a slingshot back and forth of abuse, bliss, and crushing pain into each other. That's my limit...I can't say, "If you say this, then she'll think this." I learned what you say is about YOU...means the world...is an act of intimacy you choose...not her.

I do understand you're repeating what she says...and I believe you're repeating it in your head, your focus being sucked into it...making you reactive. Stop repeating it in your head. It's hers...Facts are: She is there. She has not filed for divorce. She can leave. You can ask her to leave. All those are facts...the rest is stuff, Dino...not The Truth...stop making it The Truth. Her messed up stuff is hers...don't buy into it. When my WH said angrily to me, "If I do what MC and you say and stop thinking about OW, then I won't care about her by the first of the year if I decide to leave you and be with her!" Uh, yeah. That's the plan. Took another nine months after that for him to see FOW in his mind as half responsible for the A. Fog doesn't leave quickly...has tendrils in odd places, and you stumble across them. When WW acts loving, state what you're seeing and appreciate her choices aloud to her. Share your stuff as your own...informing. Right then. Commit to doing this...and you'll share when you feel rejected...and find out how much you're perceiving and how much is intended... Clearing your own decks, Dino.

This was the way through for me...and I read threads on MB, articles, books, but I had the MC to share with...my family...friends and coworkers. We make it through, together. I can't imagine anyone truly doing it alone. And my WH became FWH became DH...and we are new every day. And we live that way. I practiced, too, alone before WH became FWH and got on board. I just know it was his choice, every inch of his way...I couldn't manipulate or control his progress or actions...and at times, I railed at the slowness, spiraled from the rejection...and hit the surface again, treading for myself, recentering and kept going. I don't believe there was another way for me, for it was this way. For you, may be very different.

LA

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Steve never said to stay away from R talks, he just told me to say a couple of specific things to her. She kind of laughed at what I said and said I should save my money if I'm paying for it. I think we just need to limit our time when we have them, they get long and drawn out adn after a while it starts to be unproductive. I purposely avoid talks no more than once a month, just so know we're both thinking about it. Each one has just been a repeat of the last for 4 months so it's useless for now. I just don't know what to do. It seems that all advice has at least a small element of involvement from 2 people and I don't have that, at least thats my perception from what she tells me.

I should be taking LA advice and using my energy to get my "stuff" together before I do anything else, period. So I do agree with you Snuggle. Last weekend was our monthly talk that didn't go so well again. Mostly because we just aren't able to communicate without emotion yet, everything still seems so fresh in our minds. Wife hasn't seemed to move ahead at all, i feel for her, I really do.


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 Quote:
Here's what he suggested: stay away from marriage talk, speak with her about things that can help her be happy again. Tell her that we can find things to help her be happy again and that there are ways (and he told me to say this by quote) "there is a way for you to be in love with the father of your children again". Let her know that I am more concerned with her happiness and health right now than anything else, and truthfully, I am.


Ok, the relationship talks aren't working so cut them out for now. You don't need to take a monthly temperature. It's artificial and if you learn to truly listen to your wife and be her friend first, you will know what the temperature already is. Maybe take a break from judging so much whether or not your wife has moved ahead or backward or to the left. I think it makes it harder to listen to her when you do that because you get so busy trying to draw conclusions you don't see what's going on anymore. Right now it doesn't seem like you know her and you won't if you keep saying you won't.

Oh one last thing ... there is a big difference between preparing for the worst and expecting the worst. At work I prepare for the worst, but I *always* expect the best from my people. The managers who don't are the ones who consistently fail to get the most out of their people.

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Snuggle, I don't like the talks and I want to avoid them but part of me and my change towards being completely O&H involves relating my feelings. These build up over weeks, I could choose to keep them inside but they start to rot, turn to poison and I don't want that, I am one who can hate rather easy, it doesn't take me long to turn pain into hatred, it's an easy transition and pretty satisfying. I don't want that and having everything out helps immensely. We don't scream and yell or do anythign like that when we talk, we just haven't gone anywhere. I'm beginning to get a clear picture of whats she's trying to tell me. I wish I could take things at face value but she isn't O&H with me so there is no level of trust for her. The very last thing I say everytime we have a talk is that "at the very least, I deserve for you to be honest with me, nothing you say can hurt me anymore than you already have. Give me the respect to be able to make my choices from accurate information. If want to be gone or want me to go, tell me, don't string me out" I try to trust her, but her actions speak otherwise and feel like that much more of a fool. I'm already ashamed of how I've handled this whoe situation. I've been a text book doormat. I'm embarrassed at my behavior and frankly, I don't have the stones to do anything about it yet. I'm still frozen with fear of the unknown but I'm getting out of it, I feel it everyday, a little closer. But a new fear grows, fear that I will throw things away. I don't know.

I'm still ok, I always said I would hang until I couldn't so I'm still true to my word on that. I think if I could do this whole thing again, I would do it different, damn the outcome. Hindsite 20/20 right?

As for being her friend, I don't know how I could make that anymore clear to her Snuggle. I stood by her through all this legal BS while it was fresh in my heart. Listened to the horrible things she did to me and wrote a character letter to help lessen the punishment. I held her when she cried about her career while she continued to shite on me the whole time. I cooked, cleaned, brought her dinner, listen to her vent about work. I stood next to her while they read the charges against her and held her hand. I held my tongue while she disregards me every minute of the day. I do know what the temperature is, cold. You are right about knowing her though, I get into that rut of expecting. It kind of sneaks up without you even knowing it. I'm really working on getting to know her, so far I'm not liking what I see. But things aren't good, so it's understandable.

And I totally agree with what you said about expecting from people. I always give everyone the good benefit of the doubt, especially my people. You have to prove to me you are a dirtbag before I label you one. Unfortunately, the title dirtbag fits right now. I'm not being nasty, just trying to be truthful about how I feel. I want to trust, to know, to expect the best from her. Right now though, she is failing at all the above. I've never put any expectations on her, no pressures to do anything. I'm just here and waiting. Actions speak volumes, I'm not assuming, attaching meaning, guessing. She is doing all these things openly and overtly being this way. Still usign our past as justification for everything but at the same time saying "I'm not trying to bring this up again or rub it in your face, but all this is because of blah blah blah blah". "I wouldn't have done this if you didn't blah blah blah blah" Like I said, I'm ashamed of how I've handled myself in all this. Ashamed for my lack of self respect and ashamed of what I stand by and watch how she treats me, our marriage and our family. Things are going to change, it is inevitable. I still have the same desires fro our future, but I am only half of this. I can hold it together for awhile, but it's all show. I can't do it alone, she will have to want it too. or it's all just time gone by.


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Hi Dino and happy Friday (although I think you are half a day ahead of me so it's probably already Saturday now) ... I've been super busy with work this week and am glad to finally have a break although really I have to do some planning for next week, so I'll still be thinking about work even though I'm not actually there doing it ... \:o

Anyway, I have been thinking about your post. I didn't mean to imply that you should not be O&H. I think there's a difference between being O&H and having relationship talks. Being O&H is saying "I'm feeling stressed about not knowing where we stand." I think you can say that, but I think you should say that w/o any follow up conversation trying to figure out where you stand. It's the follow up conversation that does the major LBing and the follow up conversation, I suspect, is not about being O&H, but about trying to regain control.

I am glad to hear that you are losing your fear of the unknown. That's powerful for all areas of life, not just marriage. Personally, not fearing the unknown is what keeps me out of jobs I hate and in jobs that I love. I wish my dad could lose his fear because then I think he would be more capable of letting go of his adult children. So here's the distinction I want to make sure you see ... not fearing the unknown means you see the entire spectrum of possibilities for the future equally ... from the very good to the very bad. If you feel you must weight the possibilities, be sure you do so accurately and not let your natural pessimism (or optimism as the case may be) skew your judgment. This is different from recognizing the worst outcome and being ok with it/feeling like you can survive it. That is not losing fear ... that's being ready to give up. I know that's not who you want to be. It's a fine line that I think can be hard to see.

Don't feel embarrassed. You are behaving just fine. There is no perfect way to act when something like this happens. It's ok to show some emotion when a crisis happens. For sure it's ok to FEEL a lot of emotion in a crisis. From what you've told me though, you have never lost your head and that's what counts. I have a few friends deployed in Iraq & Afghanistan now, so I'll tell you what I sometimes tell them ... just don't do anything crazy!!

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Snuggle,
I sent out an SOS to you...I need some guidance. Can you go to my "can I trust my insticts now?" in GQ2? I know you'll say the right thing and help me out.

Sorry Dino...I hope all goes well with your day today.


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Snuggle
Thanks for looking in on me. I've really been in a different mind set lately. I'm trying so hard not to let myself get away. I'm just so tired of feeling like this. I need to protect myself so I can feel me sliding to the other side of the spectrum. I find myself starting to demonize her, LB in secret, make her look bad so it doesn't hurt so much but it doesn't work either. It's just been so long and there is still nothing.

I'm moving to New Mexico. The kids and her are moving back to Arizona, I'll retire in about 9 months and move to Arizona too. I want to be away from her. It will kill me but this is worse than that. This is torture. I'm taking this day by day but it's now becoming a struggle, days last forever. I just want them to be over, to move to the next so that were another day closer to something else, I don't care what at the moment, just something different than this.

We had a good day in London yesterday. Weather was perfect. Last chance to see it I believe. The kids had a good time. Her and I occupy two different spaces, two different dimensions, like we pretend we're by ourselves, it's pathetic. Grown people acting like this. I thought I left this kind of stuff behind in highschool, I'm 42 yrs old and it's still the same, maybe it's me, I'm the common demoninator.

I'm still getting better, my desire to do it with her is shrinking by the day though. I hope there is a shred of want in me by the time we leave here. There is nothing left for me to do other than survive and get out of here.


FWH/BS (me)42, FBS/WW 39, married 18 yrs, WW A discovered 3/03/2008, my A discovered 06/2003
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 Quote:
I find myself starting to demonize her, LB in secret, make her look bad so it doesn't hurt so much but it doesn't work either. It's just been so long and there is still nothing.


So ... um ... what are you doing about this?!! Are you trying to tell me that it's ok to LB as long as nobody knows about it? C'mon Dino, I'm not going to let you off easy on this one!

Dr. Harley calls LBing a "stupid and abusive strategy." You need to be working so hard on erasing all stupid and abusive behavior right now that you don't even have time to think about what your wife is doing or not doing. What's that silly think my teacher used to say ... when you point the finger at someone else, four are pointing back at you.

Let's keep it simple. Get your brain back to focusing on YOU and what YOU need to do (which is stop LBing). That's it. When you completely stop ... then you may think about other things. Got it? Good. \:\/

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Please listen to Snuggle, Dino...

You want more than a shred to leave with, then stop draining your own love bank with the LBs in your head.

One important step is to stop focusing on outcome. When you focus on outcome and not your actions, you do lose yourself...you abandon and harm yourself. Stop. Now.

You aren't in two different dimensions...you were right there, same space, place and time. Well, you weren't. Being present with your whole being, shepherding your own thoughts, that's where you're doubling your pain. You are giving yourself this experience...like you're self-punishing in some way is how I see it.

If you'll punish yourself, you'll punish her...please stop.

Right here, right now...revoke your permissions to go into the future or the past. Pain time is really slow...moves like "Slow glass" (you can distract and look up that marvelous short story on the internet). Being present cuts the pain time slowness in half. It's where we all live...unless we choose differently. Then we're in fantasy.

I think you've had enough fantasy intrude into your life...and what you post here would be GREAT to make into simple statements to your WW. "Here's what I discovered I do in my head and I'm working on it."

"Here's my fear that I won't have a shred of love for you left because I experience you as if you're in another dimension."

Take your eyes off outcome--no human can live from it, divine from it or choose well from it. Not in our control. Focus on your code, your stuff and live now, Dino.

It was reading MB which helped me realign time after time in doing this...my old thing...how much of my life was spent spiraling downward because of my choice to focus on outcome...way too much. You don't deserve this great harm you are doing to yourself--nor does your family, your life.

Our focus on our situations can take over the situation, distort and lock us in. Free yourself. Who you are right now is sufficient unto this day...it was never sufficient to take the past into now nor equipped to experience the future as now. Reality only holds this moment. You know that. I'm reminding.

LA

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So...you guys are going to be in adjoining states? How awesome is that? You practically couldn't ask for a better situation! I see lots of weekends and long weekends with your kids and being able to Plan A your W. Don't you?

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Thank you for the positive reinforcement. It's about a 9 hr drive to Tucson from Clovis. I really am thankful. I hope for it to be a new beginning for all of us. It's going to be tough for all of us with the wife retiring and trying to keep up 2 households for awhile, but I'm hoping for the best. I just want the kids to be happy, they're going to be around grandma/grandpa and cousins so that's worth it all.


FWH/BS (me)42, FBS/WW 39, married 18 yrs, WW A discovered 3/03/2008, my A discovered 06/2003
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 Quote:
So ... um ... what are you doing about this?!! Are you trying to tell me that it's ok to LB as long as nobody knows about it? C'mon Dino, I'm not going to let you off easy on this one!

 Quote:
Dr. Harley calls LBing a "stupid and abusive strategy." You need to be working so hard on erasing all stupid and abusive behavior right now that you don't even have time to think about what your wife is doing or not doing.

 Quote:
Let's keep it simple. Get your brain back to focusing on YOU and what YOU need to do (which is stop LBing). That's it. When you completely stop ... then you may think about other things. Got it? Good.

Ok, so it looks like I have my focus for the next couple of weeks, at least through our trip to Hawaii. The last couple of days have really been kind of different. I really went into a different state. I was cursing her under my breath big time. I'm starting to get a little short in the patience department. It's been 7 months since she's been home. I haven't had sex in almost 15 months and it's getting to me. Should I share this with her? I asked her when we had had our talk if she ever thought about sex, she said not in the least, and then she said, "I guess I don't have to ask you, do I?". So she knows what I need, she is choosing to ignore it or she really doesn't care.

Anyway, I have my project. It's not hard to keep my head straight about that kind of stuff. I pretty much just let myself go astray for awhile. It didn't do me any good so it shouldn't be hard to stop.

Thanks for the shake up!


FWH/BS (me)42, FBS/WW 39, married 18 yrs, WW A discovered 3/03/2008, my A discovered 06/2003
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 Quote:
Right here, right now...revoke your permissions to go into the future or the past. Pain time is really slow...moves like "Slow glass" (you can distract and look up that marvelous short story on the internet). Being present cuts the pain time slowness in half. It's where we all live...unless we choose differently. Then we're in fantasy.

Pain time really is slow. It seems like I'm in a constant state of pain LA. It never really goes away, like an ache, like how I'm used to my back hurting. It's always there, I just don't notice it when I'm distracted.
 Quote:
Take your eyes off outcome--no human can live from it, divine from it or choose well from it. Not in our control. Focus on your code, your stuff and live now, Dino.
That is so hard. Right, but hard. It's hard not to look at possible outcomes when there is so much at stake. I understand why you say it and it is the key. It used to be easy for me, when I didn't care what people think, I didn't care what My wife thought or anyone else. But I can't help but thinking that, that mentality is part of the reason I'm here now.

Anyway, things are going good I guess. She seems to be in a comfortable place, at least she looks like it. We'll be busy from here on out getting ready for the move. Hopefully there aill enough distractions to make the time go quick.

Hope your weekend was good


FWH/BS (me)42, FBS/WW 39, married 18 yrs, WW A discovered 3/03/2008, my A discovered 06/2003
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 Quote:
So she knows what I need, she is choosing to ignore it or she really doesn't care.


Dino, you silly knucklehead (and I say that with only the deepest affection for you) ... your wife is a woman and as such there are a lot more than TWO options for why she does or does not do something! LOL!! Seriously though, when you hear yourself making an either/or statement like that check yourself. Don't let yourself fall into black/white thinking ... that is how children and the immature think. You're an adult, you know the world is full of gray and you have to see that if you're going to make good decisions.

Man, you are going to be spending years breaking that half-empty habit of yours my friend. If we were talking about this over beers, this is where I lean over and pat your hand sympathetically ;\)

I will give you another possibility ... maybe she thinks you're taking care of your "needs" yourself ... especially now that you are sleeping downstairs where you get more privacy ... hee, hee! Ok, this topic is getting dangerous ... \:o

Hope your Monday was good ... mine was manic ... just like that song ... LOL!

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