You know, I've been told a number of times my opinion is due to my past. Tell me, who's isn't?

Why does one's past invalidate one's opinions here?

Fact is, it doesn't. If POM says to someone 'cut and run' in a short childless marriage then it's his opinon (which coincides w/Dr. Harey BTW).

No one here has the right to tell him he's wrong, bitter or anything else.

I see way to much of this high handedness here.

Gack, I'm gonna try to pull out you thread. I'm certainly no vet, but maybe I can offer at least some cheerleading support in your sitch. I have no idea what your sitch is...

If you don't want to bail, don't. And you certainly deserve some support for your effort, which are very noble.

E.

E.

Untrue. Several here without kids have counseled DIRECTLY with the Harley's... myself included... and was never once even suggested that we should cut and run. Contrary, we were told that our M was very "save-able".

I think that maybe they would advise cutting and running EARLIER if you are childless... but not an immediate "cut and run" no matter what the sitch if you are childless. I think that is something that has been oversimplified and perpetuated on this board that is not so cut-and-dry from the Harley's as people here seem to make it out to be. And if it is that cut-and-dry... find me one sitch where they DID counsel with the Harleys and the Harleys DID say that. I can find several in support of me... so find some in support of what you say!

And it wasn't that the Harleys said "well, we advise without kids that you leave, but if you want to do this, we'll support you". That was never said, never implied.

And I know I'm not the only one where that is the case. Intro has also counseled with the Harleys with the same results. There's a few others too, but I can't think of them at the time...

E.

It doesn't invalidate it. But what I think they were getting as is that POM is sort of coming off as his OPINION is the only correct one. But in reality, it is an OPINION-- based off of his EXPERIENCES. And he refuses to see that others have had other experiences. He seems to think that because his sitch went a particular way, everyone's will. And while some will probably follow the course of his, not all will.

Its an opinion, and he refuses to recognize that other people have other experiences, and other people's opinions are just as valid. And just as likely to occur. My opinion comes from my experience. Why is my experience "not valid" but his is? Because my opinion is directly contrary to his. So, only one can be "right" then-- right? So why is his right, and mine not? Both are based on experiences.

The fact is, BOTH are right. They are both as likely to occur. That is why boards like this are useful. I recognize parts of POM's posts that are true, but I refuse to say just because he's BTDT that every sitch is gonna turn out like the doom-and-gloom that was his. That's silly. Others have BTDT and have had different experiences.

IMHO, anyone that speaks in "absolutes" on this board-- I take their advice with as a grain of salt. Anyone that thinks all sitch's are the same, and applies the same canned advice to all of them isn't worth my time. They are all different, and I recognize that not all will turn out like mine.

E.

As you can see many do think only their opinion is right. They go so far as to calling others names.

Since I'm a 'knee jerker' should I take to calling this poster a molly coddling affair enabler?

POM has every right to his opinion.

No OPINION is right or wrong.

So why can't some just offer their opinion and not knock others?

HUH? Is this from this thread? I am not trying to be a jerk, but I have no idea what you are talking about?

I don't agree with ANYONE that discounts another's advice to say that theirs is the only one that can be right. Unless that advice is absolutely, blatantly, horrid advice. I've seen advice I don't agree with but that doesn't mean that I say its bad advice. Its just based on other experiences, and I happen not to agree. When I get offended is when people act/or say that theirs is the only advice that is good. And that's the air I'm getting off of POM. And honestly, I don't know much about POM outside this thread-- so my opinion is based solely off of that, which may not be fair.

I don't see what argument you are trying to make though with what you said above. I don't understand... maybe because you are dragging this from another thread?! I have no idea what is going on in another thread, etc, and can't comment on that?

E.

**EDIT**

email me for explanation

Revera

eeyoree,

In all honesty, that was my initial impression of you from the intro/KMS threads, which eventually got us "cross-ways" of each other.

We are all probably guilty of this at times ... we see something that is so close to our experiences that we just can't understand how someone doesn't understand our perspective, because we LIVED it.

No differnce to the situation at hand.

My simple point is that too many here tell other's their opinion is wrong. I pointed out this example because it just happened this morning.

POM, keep posting your opinion. It will be taken or not! Other's with differing opinions should not tell you that you are wrong.

Eeyore,

I applaud you for what you've done. But notice what you said: you talked about how hard you worked on you. You made a choice to explore yourself and address your character flaws.

Chances of successful recovery completely depend on the WW/WH making changes in themselves.

You're the classic example of a person who made a human mistake, slipped up, learned from the experience, and is now guarded against making that mistake again.

I very much believe that a reformed, i.e. "Former" wayward is a very powerful and strong person who has earned the F and is an incredible resource.

My rants are against the actively wayward. Actively wayward women or men are selfish and heartless creatures.

I'll agree that a former wayward who has learned from the experience and set forth on personal growth is far less likely to cheat.

But we're talking about women who have cheated very early in a marriage, which are the supposedly honeymoon years.

There are two types of waywards I see on these boards. There's the woman who married very young and feels she's missing out on something and thinks the grass is greener because her H that's in his early 30's isn't all that great. She married as a child and was/is too immature to handle the realities of marriage.

Then there's the WW who started off well in her marriage, but got in a rut, met some exciting guy somewhere (work/church/club/neighborhood) and is bored with the H who doesn't meet her EN's too well and follows the slippery slope of "innocent flirting" until she finds herself in a full blown affair. I feel these women are the most saveable.

The ones who married young and were/are too immature to handle the realities of marriage are the least saveable in my opinion. It's especially true when there are no kids in the picture. It's as if these women have woken up and realized that there is a lot in life they haven't experienced and many other men they didn't get the chance to meet and they want to go and explore.

Their H's are/were perfectly content with them and didn't see this coming and get blindsided. I think the odds or recovery here are less, especially if there are no kids. The "epiphany" will come likely long after the BH has moved on with his life and doesn't want WW back.

Then there's the woman who was abused as a child. These women are really broken inside due to a tragic and sick crime. They grow up with these internal scars. They need male attention to validate their self image and sexuality and their H's attention, affection, and love are not enough after some time. They get the wrong ideas about what real love is and are much more likely to cheat and cheat repeatedly so long as they don't get help with filling that hole in their heart and their soul. Obviously, some women can overcome this and recognize how this abuse has impacted them and they address it.

But many don't and they want to constantly pursue that male attention either through flirting, online, or with peers.

But in ALL cases, without exception, the WW has to choose to return and address these issues in order to stand a chance to succeed. They must take the journey alone and address their own flaws and weaknesses while choosing to help their husbands heal.

So these newly betrayed young men who have no children can choose to do the hard work, which is monumental in it's size, or they can let these women go and carry on with their lives and seek out women who understand boundaries and are mature enough to handle the responsibilities of marriage.

They certainly don't have to sit idly by and wait for their wives to "come to their senses" for years and years as I've seen one poor soul on these boards do.

They are young. They have their whole lives ahead of them. They can kick these women to the curb and find ones worthy of their love.

And and I'm sorry, love is not enough. No woman or man is worth being repeatedly mentally raped for.

"He came back for me" is romantic, yes. But the reality is that no woman or man is worth the tears and pain brough on by infidelity or abuse of any kind.

A reformed and repentant woman or man is a different story.

I could put my life on hold and wait for the woman I loved very deeply 10 years ago and hang on to that love forever (this was someone I dated) but I eventually had to move on. I'd still be holding my breath if I had waited for this woman to return.

There's tons of fish in the sea. It's cliche but experience has shown me that love can be found with others and it should be sought for people who deserve it.

The best quote I read recently was something along the lines of "No one is worth your tears and those who are will never make you shed them."

A FWW will not make you shed them, for she understands and has reformed. An actively wayward. Not worth the tears. The tears come, but they're not worth those tears.

The very wise Mary J Blige wrote an awesome song many years ago:

I life there are no guarantees.
In love you take your chances.
But somehow it seems unfair to me.
Look at the circumstances.

Through sickness and health.
Till death do us part.
Those were the words that we said from our heart.
So now that you say that you're leaving me.
I don't get that part.

The message of the song was, "you're not worth my tears". And she was right.

We gave these women the best years of our lives. We gave them a home, children, and love. They repaid us by cheating and taking our children.

If introvert and awh can get their wives back, reformed, and recommited and eager to earn that F in FWW then by all means, I applaud them and root for them and hope the best for them.

What I don't want to see them and is more likely to happen is that they wait and wait and get a woman back who wants to sweep it all under the rug and they are so overjoyed with the WW return that they themselves "put it in the past" and then find themselves years later reliving the nightmare but with kids in the picture.

Either that or they become like drowningman, who has waited and waited and seen his current wife move on from OM1, to OM2 and OM3 while she still goes out with him as "friends". He's been doing this for a looooong time and is too afraid to let go and see that there are millions of beautiful women out there and he doesn't have to settle for one that treats him like he's being treated.

My opinions aren't just based on my own experiences but on observations I've made on this board.

The BHs who appear to do the best ARE the ones who take the chance of kicking their WWes to the curb, being strong, and realizing that they can move on. They slap harsh reality on the WW.

Very often, as in the case of mortarman, the WW eventually comes to her senses when the man is strong and he makes divorce land not such a happy place as she pictured. Oftentimes it's the potential loss of the kids that encourage the WW to return and try to recover the marriage.

But the women of these men have no children to encourage them to restore their families. What they have left at this point is time in the dating world to realize they had a good deal that they threw away if that realization happens at all. It could take months or years for them to realize this. It often happens, and I've seen it on these boards, where the woman will want to return to her BH with no kids in the picture and after she's been hurt and jerked around in the dating world.

The BH, by that point, is burned out and wants nothing to do with her. I've SEEN that here on these boards.

So intro and gack and awh can hold out and follow the plans and I applaud them for trying. Odds are high, though, that it will be a very long time for their wives to return and when they do they will face a massive amount of work to repair the damage.

All too often, as in the case of the WW I advised in the past, she can't understand why the BH is so unsure and afraid of her return. The BH, by that point, has given up and started to move on.

Intro, gack, awh: hang in there. I would advise you to not date for a while if you choose to bail. Get a good therapist, explore the reasons that your wife strayed, and heal yourself before dating again. But letting go of your WW and the willingness to do that is ironically the biggest thing you could do to get her back.

Work on YOU. The rest will take care of itself. And if your WW runs into you and sees how you've made all these changes, are strong, in shape, attractive again, then that may give them pause.

But you win either way by working on YOU.

Either they return to you reformed and you're a strong man or you come away from this experience armed with great knowledge.

Since you want to beat up POM why don't you read the thread.

This is the first post to POM after he gave his "2 cents".


Now after only giving his opinion he is told his 'logic is skewed'.

Why shouldn't he respond?

Masive amount of work, absolutly.
High odds of failure, definitly.

Long time before my wife returns..... um, again, she returned. I distinctly remember SF with her this morning.

Definitly still in the fog, who knows it may not clear before I give up on plan A. But she has returned, and has ever more frequint moments of clarity. (Inspite of this, I am still shocked by just how foggy the wayword mind can get)

Too late. The last month my WW was gone I started seeing someone. I had almost completly given up on her ever coming back. Admitedly, it was way to soon to do such a thing, and thats why we never got physical. But fear of being alone is not my motivation for wanting to save my M.

I went to therapy once a week for 5 months. I am probably going to return in a few weeks. Got some stuff I need to work out.

My wife left me becouse I was an alcholic with a bad temper, that yelled and was constantly angry. I was verbally abusive. Unlike most on MB my wife left me before starting her affair or even meating OM

I know.

It gave her more than pause.

I agree 100%

Look, I do listen to ALL advice regarding infidelity...from EVERY member here. But, when someone (pom) blatantly says "you have a higher % of your WW cheating again, because she did it without children"...but cannot provide me any actual evidence to back up that claim...it's not educated advice...plain and simple.

Saying that "Dr. Harley agrees with me" is hogwash, considering his very own daughter (Jennifer) has NEVER said such things to me on the phone. Dr. Harley also states that he wouldn't blame ANY person for divorcing a cheating spouse...does that mean we all should?

He can respond if he wants...but using his own opinions and trying to pass his opinions off as some sort of educated proof is a crock.

Intro,

I have never claimed to be an expert. It seems to me that you're angry because you're not hearing what you want to hear.

I've given you an opinion. It's an opinion based on personal experience, observation, and through the reading of other situations on this board.

Yes, your wife is very likely to cheat on you again if she doesn't fix or you don't fix the issues that led her astray, kids or no kids.

My point was that kids are a motivating force, not the reason, but a motivating force, to encourage WWes to give their marriages a chance again.

The ones I've seen respond are the ones who have BHes who have been strong, secured primary custody or 50/50, and didn't make anything easy for their WWes.

The WW started, in the threads I've seen, seeing the damage that they were doing to their children and that was the start of the fog lifting. They then started to see the damage they did to their husbands. The fog lifted and they started coming around and owning their roles.

You are beating a dead horse. I'm not an expert nor do I proclaim to be. Saying that your wife cheated and is likely to cheat again is an opinion as valid as saying that the Broncos are the greatest team in the history of the universe.

It's an opinion and one based on 2 years of being on this board and reading countless stories of men and women with waywards. Does that make me an expert? No.

But I've read too many stories of men who say "she had an affair shortly after we married" and are on these boards because they're now dealing with another affair and little kids. AW3 comes to mind. He's NOW doing the right things and throwing her out with the bathwater and protecting his kids.

Could have avoided the future heartache by kicking her to the curb from the get go.

Now, Gack, you're a different story. You appear to be someone that was well on his way to a divorce when the WW saw that you made significant changes, fixed yourself, and decided to return to you and try again because she was seeing the man she fell in love with. Completely fixable situation.

She didn't leave you because she met OM but because you had a serious problem.

You appear to be on top of it and I encourage you and hope the best for you.

Intro, I can't find your thread with your most recent situation and only see the older stuff.

I wish you the best as well. I simply don't want to see you sitting on these boards 2 years from now still holding out for your WW to come to her senses when there is a ton of life to live.

Betrayedhubby75 us an excellent example of a man with ball$ who did what he needed to when he found out that his longtime live in girlfriend and current wife was cheating on him. He slapped divorce papers on her and is really holding her feet to the fire. Will they recover? Who knows. But he took a stand and isn't a doormat for his WW and is very willing to kick her to the curb if he learns that she did in fact have a PA.

I've also seen other men on here who have no kids and have split with their wives and have come back on these boards years later to share the great news of the new love in their lives and who find out, through the grapevine, that the cheating wives they left are falling on their face. But they don't care at that point and are happy to have them out of their lives because they found something that is ten times better than what they had before.

So there is life outside of the WW.

Finally, Gack and intro, fear of being alone is not something you're necessarily conscious of. I'm not saying that you are because I don't know you, but it is certainly something you can recognize when you look back.

I was desperate to be in a relationship 10 years ago and had very bad relationships as a result. I had a fiance with alcohol and personally boundary issues and who cheated on me with 2 women. I had a woman I was deeply in love with who had a boyfriend I didn't know about. I then had my wife, who would have regular panic attacks and tons of medical problems associated with panic attacks, depression, and very poor personal boundary and deep psychological problems.

So I've taken a big break from dating to work on me. I don't want women with major issues like this at all. I want to meet a healthy woman and I'm not actively seeking anyone. There's someone in my group that i like and that i'd be very happy to date, but outside of her I'm not seeking and am working on me so that I can attract a good strong woman who believes in God, is independent, doesn't need a man in her life, and is happy with herself and will be good to my kids.

That is the greatest gift I can give my kids. A healthy me who doesn't just hook up with the latest damsel in distress.

So when I say that fear of being alone is something to consider, it's because it's something I recognize in myself when I look back at my dating history. I was desperate and that led to a disasterous marriage and many bad relationships.

Intro, all we can do here on these boards is share our experiences. Take or leave what you want.

I'm no expert and don't proclaim to be.

And the Air Force Falcons are the greatest football team in the history of the Universe and Surf Nazis Must Die is the greatest B movie ever!

(It really isn't, it's terrible, but the title is funny)

Any my poor Air Force Falcons.....

Here's to hoping for a winning season and a lower tier bowl game.

This is a great post POM Kudos

E.

I think this is something we can all agree on...

Yes, a WW is likely to stray again if the don't get down and dirty and fix the REAL issues IN THEM. And it AIN'T EASY. I can sit here and tell you my character flaws that led to my A. And I suspect that some of them are the same as other WW... (but I'm sure not all). Its like waking up and realizing that you aren't as strong/good/moral of a person you thought you were-- even before the A!

Yes, I can see how kids would be a motivational force for a WW to come back and give the M a try- seeing what they are doing to the kids. I don't have any, but I can imagine that is true. BUT, I don't know if that gives them motivation to really do the deep digging that is going to PREVENT another A. It may give them motivation to "come back". But "coming back" isn't recovery. Part of recovery is PREVENTION. I don't know that kids encourage that second part... the WW might come back thinking "I'll never do this again"-- but unless they've really dug deep, in a few years they may find themselves in the same sitch again-- and without that deep digging and understanding... even with kids, they can go down that path again....

Now, I think that getting them to come home may be a window of opportunity to then go ahead and get that full recovery. But I think that a BH shouldn't settle for the WW just "coming home"-- even if there is kids. Its RECOVERY (meaning prevention) or BUST.

I don't want to bash POM, and am not intending to. i think the last post he made outlining the different types of A, and his respect for FWW-- is spot on. And leaves "wiggle room" and isn't an all or nothing post, which is where I tend to think people go wrong.

I'm just saying that chances of recovery comes from the WS ATTITUDE changes and BEHAVIOR changes-- and that can happen with or without kids. Kids may give the WS more of a reason to "come home" but I don't know if it gives them more of a reason to do that "hard work". And too many around here settle for a M that is one where the WS "came home" but hasn't done the "hard work".

E.

In all honesty, (and my lord, MyRev, I DO NOT WANT to fight with you AGAIN-- I'm starting to feel like you are just following me around trying to pick a fight with me-- this is like the THIRD thread you've followed me to to insult me on...), anyways, in all honesty, I felt the same way about you. I was posting to Intro, advice that was similar to what other's posted to him after I opened the door-- and you came on and said that my advice wasn't good. Yes, I have a different opinion than you. I never said that what you were saying was wrong, I never called you out, I never insulted you. Still haven't. You are coming from different experiences than me. It was you that jumped on Intro's thread and told my my advice was bunk and that I shouldn't post to him anymore. I didn't say that to you! I didn't say anything at all about your advice-- nothing. And nothing about you.

So, if anything, I feel that it was YOU saying that YOUR experiences were "more relevant" than mine-- and that my advice was crap because it was different than your experience-- because I never called you out, never insulted you, and certainly never suggested that you stop posting to someone-- the ultimate way of saying "your experiences are crap, and mine are more important". Quite frankly, telling me I should stop posting to someone (other than you telling me I should stop posting TO YOU, but I don't think I have ever posted to you...)-- is the ULTIMATE "I know better than you" and "my opinion is better than yours".

I know we come from different sides of the tracks and different experiences, and quite frankly, I think on this board it is the BIGGEST opportunity to LEARN AND GROW is to DISCUSS with other people those differences. Posting only to people just like you and that think just like you doesn't encourage growing. That is why I specifically asked questions OF YOU on my thread-- one that would be useful rather than just insulting me... and you never returned. It seems to me that you can't have a discussion with someone that you don't agree with without it turning into a mudslinging argument. Not effective. I enjoy conversing with Intro because even tho he may 2x4 me occasionally and even tho we don't see eye to eye all the time- he doesn't outright insult me and tell me I'm wrong, and he has to be right. That's how I feel like you've approached me. Maybe I'm wrong.

MyRev, geez, and we just wave the white flag here already? Honestly, I don't even think our opinions of Intro's case, or in general, are all that different. I don't have a problem with you. I backed off of Intro for awhile, for several reasons. And he has said over and over again that he appreciates ALL opinions, but you have yet to offer yours again since the whole debacle on his thread-- even though I've encouraged you to go on over there and do so. I do think he needs both sides, everyone does! And I think he's smart enough to decide what is worthwhile and what will work for him and what won't.

So can we agree to disagree MyRev (if we even are disagreeing?!) and just LET THIS DIE?!?!?!??! (**Eeyoree waves white flag frantically**)

E.

eeyore,

I agree with you 100%. But getting home is a first step.

The journey is just a start at that point. But that is the most important first step for a WW to take and there are certainly no guarantees.

The other side of the equation, which I think you may fall into (and it would be interesting to hear) is the WW who strayed, found the grass to not be so green, and returned to her H.

What encouraged you to do the soul searching and hard work needed for recovery? What encouraged you to take ownership of your problems?

This is a very personal question, but was childhood abuse a factor?

Did you have poor boundaries and ideas that "harmless flirting" was ok?

I once talked to a WW who wanted her BH to return. I took a wild guess on how her affair happened and was so accurate that she found it spooky.

I told her about how it likely started off very innocently. A little conversation here and there. Then the conversations led to an innocent get together for coffee or lunch. All innocent and "friendly". An attraction developed over a series of these conversations and lunches. Someone took a risk and made a slighly suggestive joke. That opened the door and it led to more open flirting. Now the pheromones really started to fly. The jokes get more and more risque. The conversations are certainly ones the hubby wouldn't want to hear, but it's just talk. What's the harm in just words and it's fun.

All the while, hubby at home is nowhere near as exciting. If anything, he starts to become annoying and his flaws become more glaring.

Man at work/gym/church/school is more exciting that boring old hubby, who doesn't help around the house, doesn't appreciate her, and probably plays too many video games or watches too much football at the expense of his marriage (all the while he thinks things are fine).

This flirting with OM is exciting. Justifications start. "It's just a harmless lunch."

"We're just going to a movie."

"We're just going on a walk. Nothing will happen."

"We're going to a conference."

"I'm going to his place to check out his new car/TV/apartment. He's a friend."

And then someone crosses a line. A kiss is shared. The pheromones kick in and hormones override the brain and biology leads to pants unzipping and infidelity.

Am I too far off?

This was the guess I took with her and she said that I described it nearly identical to how she strayed.

She left her H, had her affairs, dated around, and eventually divorced.

She wanted H back after a few years in the dating world and getting burned.

H timidly re-engaged with her, but couldn't commit and was very afraid to open up again. Too much damage was done.

She has since given up on trying to win him over and I haven't heard from her in a loooong time.

I'm just wondering what your story is.

Pom,

That was a great post. This is where I am today. My WW has done everything to keep the M together, to the extent of putting up w/ a RA I had and letting it go. She is so repentant, but yet I moved out a week ago and got my own apartment. We are still seeing each other quite often and going on dates, but I feel as others like Betrayedhubby75 you mentioned. I need to show some B*LLS and that is why I moved out. She is not Wayward at all any longer, but I just can’t seem to get passed the fact I’m too good for her and could move on. I think that’s why it was so important to get my own apt and show myself I could move on. I wish she’d just asked for a separation, BEFORE getting involved, fell on her face, and begged for me back. The fact that she was cake eating all that time is tough to swallow for a type A egomaniac. They say no major moves the first six months. All my moves have been major and I’m at 4 months.