Knowing it hurts you is intellectual knowledge. It's about "someone else" (you) and she can shrug it off. When you ask "Is the enjoyment you get from the P.A. more important to you than the pain you are causing me?" then she has to either start agreeing that she should resign, or admit out loud that she cares more about her own happiness than your pain.

I think she's in contact. When she says YOU have the problem, and when she wants you to "get over it", and otherwise shows a total lack of empathy, she's (possibly) in withdrawal from OM or (much more likely) in contact.

I wonder if you could give her an ultimatum:
Resign or move out.

You'd have to stick to it, and that puts a lot on the line.
Not sure you could enforce it, either. I mean, she's entitled to live there just as much as you are.

Is there anywhere you could move temporarily and take the kids with you? If you have a place lined up "just in case" and she refuses to resign or move out, you could move out until she does resign.

I'm sorry, I forgot - is OM married?
How do you know he is/isn't?
Have you exposed to his circle of influence?

Erm, basically kissing and cuddling. Probably tongues involved and hands in inappropriate places. Though when it's my W with someone else, it doesn't sound so good.

Small update:

So the P.A. meeting was held at my house while I was at work. I, of course, had my friendly little DVR listening in. Listened back to recording while I was at work last night, and.....absolutely nothing to report.

Not sure if this is good or bad. Her close allies were here and also 2 teachers. When the teachers left, the topic of conversation was changed, but no mention of OM or the A. Her best bud on the P.A. now works at the school as a teaching assistant. There is every chance that she will bump into OM at some stage. Also another one of the 'ladies' does work quite closely with OM.

Most that was mentioned was functions at the school and that OM would be needed as security guard for them. This happened while teachers were here. After they went, they (the P.A.) were arranging further social activities for girls nights out etc. There is an AGM at the school on Sept 23, this will be the first time WW will be at school this academic year.

Tonight, she has got one of her reflexology clients coming to the house. She is 'in the know' about A. Will see what, if anything materialises. If she keeps quiet about OM tonight, I don't know where I will get info from?

Also, can't remember who asked, if my W was low as in 'missing OM'. Well, no, she is quite high. Her job is going well and everything in her garden is rosy. This may partly be due to being on anti-deps, I don't know. I do realise that she could well still be in contact.

Just downloading audio from last night. On first scan doesn't seem like OM was mentioned. If this is the case either she has gone 'dark' on passing on any info to her 'friends' or is maybe doing it in other ways, either at work or texts? I'm so confused right now.

It sounds like she either knows you're recording or she's really trying to give him up.

If it were me and I thought she'd discovered the recorder, I'd consider getting a second recorder and putting it in a different location. Then remove the first recorder, turn it off, and put it somewhere kind of obvious but not totally... like your bathroom drawer or your bedside table. Let her think you believe she's given him up. Let her think it's safe to talk again.

Man, snooping really sucks, doesn't it?

Phil, all this taping stuff has got to be torture.

What is the end game? If you hear her recount a sex act, what are you going to do with it?

I think she's just being cagey about what she says and when I actually have 3 DVRs! That's sad isn't it

She knows that I have recorded her in the past, it came out on one of the D-Days. As far as she is concerned, I've only ever had one. So now I keep 'that' one in my work bag, I know she goes through it almost daily while I'm in bed. I leave the zip in a certain position, so I know if it's been tampered with. It's second guessing on where she might talk all the time. It's very time consuming, it's driving me slowly crazy.

Yes Mike, it is torture, especially when I used to hear her bad-mouthing me and how she only loves me like a 'brother'. Well, the things we've been up to that would count as incest!

The end game? I'm not sure, maybe I'm waiting to either hear she's stopped (I've been waiting for so long though) or do something that will 'break the camel's back'. What that is at the moment, I don't know. My tolereance levels seem to get stretched all the time.

She could have one of those pay as you go phones you get at the stores and keep it hidden.

Oh I know she has one of those already. It's kept at a friends house, but her friend has been on holiday for 2 weeks so she has not been able to use it. Unless she has it, and is hiding it elsewhere. Maybe in a locker at work???

Personally, I am just not up for the PI stuff. I busted my W originally with a key logger. She gavce me her passwords and email accounts after D-day. Then I found out D-day 2 there had been phopne calls between them, I assume through the cells. Frankly, I'm not going to change cell numbers and play cop, they have mutual friends, we live in adjoining towns, I'm not going to live my life like that.

She sent a pretty good NC letter, and I believe she hasn't been in contact since a week Tuesday.

But, hey, what do I know? :-) I believed her all along. I believed her when she swore on a bible and lied. :-)

Phil, you just have to plot your chess game and decide if this monitoring is worth the emotional stress. Like I said, what are you going to do if you hear her recounting having sex with the OM? Confront....and then what?

To me, your actions should be ready in your head, because one way or another, the situation is intolerable, and it doesn't look like she respects you or is going to work on the marriage.

Despite the stunning parallels, my case is different because there is no ambiguity in the infidelity, and there has been a level shown (depending upon the moment) of desire of my wife to fix things up.

But, for your own sanity, if I were you I'd start figuring the steps to unwind the marriage, if only to be taking some empowerment within yourself.

I'm with Mike - playing PI is okay for first discovery but it's no way to live a life. Obviously you're pretty sick of living this way because you'd like to go to Plan B but she won't move out.

Here's something you might consider:

1. Assume she's NC with OM. Figure out what your requirements are to want to work on the M. For example, she quits the P.A., agrees to do MB books with you, whatever. Ask her to meet those requirements.

2. If she balks at your conditions, file for separation. See a lawyer to see if you can do this and get her out of the house that way.

You don't have to pursue D. You can live in sweet isolation until she comes around or you're done with it.

No, playing PI is not fun. I'm just trying to find out the truth 'cause I know I won't get it from my W. She has also sworn on the kid's lives etc. that she had stopped contacting/seeing OM, then I found it to be lies again. I've given her more lives than Top Cat and his gang put together it seems. We've had about 3 or 4 D-Days and I feel the next one could well be the last, whenever that may be.

Not a great deal of info gathered from her session with the reflexology client which normally turns up the goods. She has a radio on during the sessio,n and she is not sure if I am still recording or not, but whispers anyway when talking about the 'bad' stuff. Even though the DVR is hidden about 3 feet away it's very difficult to hear some things. It's very frustrating. I think OM is contacting her when she is at work. She also mentioned our row the other day about this guy at work and the P.A. stuff. She said "Remember me telling you about the guy at work..." So 'client' knows about this and she hasn't seen her for 3 weeks! Also said she is torn between P.A. and me, says she enjoys P.A. but does realise the anguish it causes me. She said she will ask me if I want to go to next P.A. AGM at the school. I don't think so, there are several things the P.A. will be involved in over the next few months and I'm not going to go to them, how would that look!

1. I think she is though (see above). I know I have alot of thinking to do. I have done for the past year, every day, and I'm still no further. School stuff is obviously the bone of contention primarily.

2. I saw a lawyer back in Feb to see where I stood and she said that I can't throw her out for what she is doing. I can file for D on grounds of 'unreasonable behaviour' if I wanted to. Would love to give it a try, she needs to wake up and smell the coffee. If I could do a Plan B with her out of this house, it might just work.

Well.....my lawyer said, heck you can allege whatever you want in the divorce complaint. I can tell you my W and OM aren't going to want to get on the stand and play Ken Starr and Bill Clinton with the intimate details of their affair. I'm going to say they were doing donkey shows in the cafeteria during lunch. That is my hammer, and it is effective.

The offer about you getting involved in the school thing is very intriguing. It also fulfills some MB stuff like conversation and recreational companionship while helping with the monitoring of no contact.

Plus, if you can go there and become a likable human instead of a one dimensional guy she complains about, maybe her little support group will stop cheering her behavior.

Give it some thought.

This offer has not been made directly to me. It was said to her client the other evening, which I picked up on in the recording. If I don't say anything, she will be quite content to go on her own to all the P.A. stuff. She said (to client) that she will put the dates on the computer and let me find out that way, rather than tell me herself when the P.A. stuff is happening 'cause it always brings a tense atmosphere. Well, what a surprise. I know it's kind of a LB when this happens, but what does she expect? Me giving her a kiss and waving her off to the school?


There was a function back in May that we went to that was arranged by the P.A. It was at the school, OM was not there that night as the teacher that was also part of arranging it, knows about my W and OM. Of course, I was very reluctant to go as it was only 2 days after a D-Day. It was the first time husbands and wives of the P.A. have met socially and we got on quite well, but I could sense tension from the women on the P.A. when they were near me. I'm not sure if they pitied me, or think I was a headcase because of what W may have said about me? I do feel very uneasy being around them. I'm a nice guy and I think they know that, but keeping the A secret, does condone it. I wonder how they would feel if it was their partners having an A.

I don't mean to put barriers up to suggestions, I'm open to all comments and ideas.

So does anyone have any thoughts?

I seem to be in an obsessive mode about DVRing every time I'm out of the house, and get suspicious every time my W is out of the house. This is crazy, all I want to hear is her telling someone that she's given OM up, and wants to really try with our M. She'll say that to my face but then she's said so many things, so many times and it all turns out to be lies

We got home this morning and there was a message on the answerphone from the school asking if she could come in and speak with one of the governors. They want the viewpoint of some parents so thought she would be a good candidate. Nothing was said, and I've noticed the dates for next week at the school are in Outlook, but she hasn't said anything to me.

I'm following your story but have no ideas.

You've got no proof one way or the other.
She won't move out.
You have no place to go to with the kids.
You're between a rock and a hard place unless you want to file for D.

You said you'd noticed the dates in OL.
How about saying to her "I've been thinking about this, and while I prefer that you give up the P.A. I understand how important it is to you. I'm going to start attending, too, in the hopes that we can make it something positive we share."

How would that go over?

Thanks th, I know this thread gets lots of views, but I wouldn't know what to say to me either!

Re: about attending P.A. dates - When she first went to the P.A. in Sept 07, she came home that night and rang me, full of beans that she'd been elected Chairman. I was really pleased for her, it had only been a couple of months since losing her mum and this gave her something to focus on and make new friends. I offered my support saying that if she wanted a hand with anything, I'd be there to help out. After all, this was the school that I attended when I was a lad and now both my Ds go there. The offer was declined as in "This is my thing to do..."

Little did I know that less than a month later my whole world would fall apart on D-Day1. It was the worst feeling EVER, worse than losing my mum on my 25th birthday, 18 years ago. I have since found out that on that Sept night, it was the first time my W and OM got physical. And ever since the P.A. has been one of the major causes of our problem. I feel that if I go to the 'normal' P.A. evenings, I would feel like I was spying on her. I know that must sound crazy 'cause of what I'm doing anyway. I think she would be thinking 'He's only here to keep an eye on me' and that's what the other mums (who know of A) would be thinking too. The actual core members of the P.A. are women, about 6/7 of them with a few volunteers for the bigger functions. They mainly take place of an evening and this is when I'm at work. The P.A. are there to raise funds for the school primarily, so are there on open evenings etc. handing out leaflets and making beverages for the teachers. This is when it's easy for my W to slip away to be with OM. The school's a very big place with lots of empty rooms. It has CCTV but guess who monitors it? Yep, OM.

Sorry to go on, needed to get that off my chest

EDIT - School called back, W is at work. They asked if either myself or my W were available Friday am to talk to Govt. Ed. Dept. I at first said yes, we'd both go then realised W is at work and I'm at the gym. It's not like I could've said anything to Head as he will be in meetings with these people all day. Doesn't change next week though...