Oh Bugs, I feel for you on the whole job thing. I was in corporate for over 20 years, and always hated the politics and butt-kissing. It's nice owning your own business because I you have to put up with that crap. The trade-off is no health insurance, no 401K, no nice office, no paid expenses, and well, no pay. :MrEEk: Then there are the customers

You've come a long way Bugs. Keep up the good work...

Thanks, Chai!

You are right about there being trade offs either way - corporate or self owned business. Overall, I really can't complain. I've been with the same company for going on 18 years and most of it has been great! Just new managers lately that I have some issues with. Some changes are coming down the pike,,,,and they can't get here soon enough for me!!

I just had an email show up in my In Box from Drac. The preview says something about a conversation he had with DSS about courtesy & respect during which he reminded him that I'd called & left messages asking him to call me.

I haven't read the whole thing yet.

Is it possible the darkness is bothering him a tiny bit?

Bugsy:

I think you need a definite PLAN about how you're going to proceed with DRAC. Wanna talk more about that?

Mimi,

Yes,,,,,,,,,,,,and no.

I've pretty much been avoiding the subject as I just really don't know what to do.

or

What I want to do.


or


What I should do

That's why I asked you. AVOIDANCE is YOUR PLAN and not a good one for you, IMO. Having a DEFINITE PLAN of ATTACK is BEST according to the ART OF WAR and the ART OF LIFE (i made this part up...LOL)

'Cause if YOU don't have your own DEFINITE PLAN..DRAC is in control..whether he knows it or not..and this is affecting even your WORK LIFE...he's got you IN LIMBO...

Boy, I'll be honest Bugsy, I really think you need to get really dark AND move forward with your own existence. This guy is a dead weight as he is. Just let him come to you. If you are available and willing when/if that happens, THEN you can broach the subject of recovery. I don't see someone who is committed to anything but himself.

Maybe not the MB thing to say, but it's about protecting yourself, and I can read to pain in your posts, the disappointment, and know that this has hurt you a great deal more than you may be letting on. It's not a full false recovery, because neither of you were fully vested, but the loss sure can make it feel that way, even if it's short lived.

Love it!

Yes, I agree it's best to have a plan. I guess when I really look myself in the mirror with honesty, the reluctance I've had to make a plan is because it no longer seems possible to me that the outcome of any plan I make can possibly result in getting what I want/need from Drac.

So, my brain then goes to the thought of 'why have a plan if it can't get you where you want to be'?

I don't necessarily agree that he has me in limbo. If anything, I've put myself there by no having a plan.

His email today is about DSS - and includes frustration on his part in dealing with him. Basically, I read it as a 'reach out' to me about parenting issues. He doesn't ask for my help but I can tell he'd like to have it,,,,yet he sent email instead of calling.

This coming weekend is my nephew's wedding out of town. DSS has a football game. I talked to DSS a few weeks ago about it & made it clear that the choice to go to the wedding or stay for the game was totally up to him.

Here is Drac's so that you can see what I'm talking about.


So how do I plan for dealing with this stuff? Darkness. Simple thanks for the info?

I just don't know. I want more than to be a co-parent. Drac wants a co-parent.

Are the kids suffering by my lack of cooperation in that department?

Is it possible that Drac does/could want more and that it depends greatly on how I handle all of it?

I just don't know anymore.

It IS the MBers' thing TO DO and TO SAY...but Bugsy, in a sense, has stopped buying into the system...not listening...

Bugsy, I think you've been SUCKED IN..UNDER HIS SPELL..as in ADDICTION...

I think DRAC is a CASANOVA...SEDUCTIVE...

I think you should do what is best for YOU. This is about Plan Y.

I had suggested before that you simply tell him abit about what is going on with you. That you enjoy the coparenting role, but that you still want more, and it hurts to talk to him and pretend you have no feelings.

And I understand you not wanting to stick your neck out about that...because you harbor hope that your words make a difference in this situation to him...and whether he comes back or not.

But let's take him out of the situation. Stop living your life for him, or trying to get him to do something...or manipulate the situation. Plan B is never about manipulation, it sometimes seems that way because you take back the control of the relationship, and the WP has to change in order to stay connected (or not).

But this isn't about exacting a change in him, this is about doing what is best for you. And doing what is fair. It is not fair that you go back and forth with Drac...in contact, out of contact, without him knowing why. If you are truly over, or especially if you want a relationship, it is time to be honest with him, and let him know why it is hard for you to stay in contact with him...

Then do what is best for you. He will understand why you have dark days and more connected days then.

Are you afraid once you profess you are still waiting you will have played your trump card and you have no other manipulation to play? Stop thinking of it as a game, or as war. This is your life, and whatever happens, if you have lived your life in a fair and honest manner, then you can look back at with satisfaction.

Ok, so it IS MB, but in the way I am expressing it, I am NOT suggesting that she harbor all this hope for a marriage with Drac, I am saying that she harbor hope that she will find HER way, and whoever suits that way, will be by her side, and she can share her MB language with THEM. It may never be Drac.

I honestly think it's time to punt.

I agree completely with Stillheremaking it. Be completely honest with Drac, and then get dark. I don't believe in doing a Plan A once you have completed that task. HE KNOWS THAT YOU CAN CHANGE. He won't know that you can sustain those changes until he grows a set and meets you halfway; until then, you are spinning your wheels.

If you really want to be done with him, keep in contact. He will slowly drain your love bank with his lack of real reciprocation. He just sounds like he doesn't want to be alone, which comes from insecurity, NOT LOVE.

Woman, you are such a prize. Don't devalue yourself by giving even an inch to someone who doesn't appreciate what he's gettin. It took me a long time to get to that place. I would have totally entertained (and did) being with the Z if he appreciated what I was doing. HE didn't even have the appreciation, much less any of the drive necessary to recover.

SHMI,

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.


True. True.


Ok


I've really thought about this today. For how long now have I lived my life doing what was 'best' for me that INCLUDED protecting my love for him and hoping/praying for an opportunity for an 'us' again?

I think facing doing what's best for me without that piece of the puzzle is the change with which I am struggling right now.


Ok so we have him back in the discussion. Let me clarify, that I have not refused any contact with him whatsoever. I haven't told him I was not speaking with him or set any guidelines or boundaries on our communication. I have been either more or less detailed in the communications and I have not initiated any friendly or 'more than' friendly communications as I did for a while.

Yes, he certainly sees inconsistancy in how much I communicate but it's not been a stated ON again, OFF again thing.

The part of me that wants this all to be over says, "who gives a flying F about what is fair or not fair to him". Yet I do see what you are saying. There's no way for him to understand any of it as I haven't been upfront about every interaction. However, I have little doubt that he knows full well that I am very much interested in an 'us' again.


No, what I am afraid of is that by once again saying it out loud to him is that there will be some final curtain. Some final speech from him that will really close the door forever.
AND/OR
That he will look at me with pity. I don't think I could stand that.


SL - - - I know you are right about every single thing in your post. You have no idea how much your sharing and support means to me!!

I think I just gotta work through this living for ME that doesn't include some form of "hoping for us". I'm struggling with it, especially when trying how to co-parent without that feeling of something more.

I know I'll get through it.

I understand EXACTLY where you are, Bugs. I don't know the answers to these questions, but they are very relevant.

My response is 'when in doubt, go back to Steve. . . .'

I'm not understanding how come your situation is viewed differently than others. I believe that I must be missing something. Isn't it the MBers' viewpoint that the BEST CHANCE of MARITAL RECOVERY in a situation such as yours is PLAN B? AND, after 2 years in PLAN B, then there is a low likelihood of reconciliation. Isn't that what Dr. Harley says?

It seems to me that PLAN B protects your love for him, if RECOVERY is ever an option, and ALSO allows you to MOVE ON to a healthy emotional place.

It seems to me that you are backsliding in the above in your venture out of PLAN B. It's a PLAN that the good Dr. has devised to foster MARRIAGES and EMOTIONAL HEALTH if the marriage ends. At least, you will be equipped to deal with and enter in to NEW RELATIONSHIPS after completing the two years in PLAN B.


EXACTLY..he knows the DANCE..and this must HURT more than you are acknowleging as stated by SL...


This is what concerns me..you no longer present yourself in a position of PERSONAL POWER...You are AFRAID of stating YOUR TRUTH?..you are AFRAID of HIS RESPONSE?...He has already drawn the CURTAIN, Bugsy. This is not NEW. You have picked yourself up and are now holding your head up high..chest out...If HE rejects YOU, HE IS TO BE PITIED....This is why I say that HE seems to be in CONTROL..you seem CONTROLLED out of some FEAR of HIS REACTION?...YUCK..who is he but a man who has ABANDONED HIS FAMILY and hangs out on match.com...YUCK...

Morning!

First, let me say that I don't view my situation as any different than any other here. Nor do I think that the plans don't apply to me - they do. What I am saying is that my view of where I stand in my situation is changing.

I have been trying to figure it all out - the best I can say right now is that perhaps I am truly mourning the loss of 'hope' that I've harbored all of this time. A portion of my personal power with Chin up and Chest out rested in some ways on the foundation of hope & belief that I had in the ultimate restoration of my relationship with Drac.

As I have said, the whole opening up to the dating world is outside my 'comfort' zone in that it is very hard for me to be involved in any way with anyone while I have feelings for another person. By dating, I feel like I need to not just close the door on Drac, but it's time to lock it and throw away the key. I'm a one door at a time kinda gal.

Yes, the hurt I have been feeling about Drac is more than I've realized for some time. That's because I've been looking at it again. I pulled it out of the closet when I allowed the interaction with him. Yes, I realize that this is a direct result of the lowering of Plan B boundaries.

Fox posted this yesterday -

This is very much me as well. Most days I work/live beyond these thoughts and feelings. Some days not. As Fox said, father time helps lessen the number of days with these thoughts and feelings.


Yes, this is the man he is being today - - - I'm still remembering the man he was when I married him. Although I don't 'want' to, I find I still pray for the return of that man.

Long story short, turns out that DSS IS going to the wedding with me & Ladybug this weekend. Bottomline is that Drac manipulated him into it. Why? I can only guess - but my guess is that it is because Drac has plans this weekend. I'd LIKE to think it was/is because of some misguided concern about the relationship between me & DSS, but that would just be giving Drac credit he does not deserve.

He is still incredibly selfish & self centered. He can give all of the lip service he wants about being focused on his kids - but his actions tell another story.

So, Bugs is sitting here Chin Up/Chest Out taking back the personal power without the crutch of 'hope' about Drac. Not easy, but I'm doing it. One day at a time.

Mimi wrote some pretty powerful stuff and it's exactly the conclusion I had come to some months ago, after the initial anger subsided.

Hang in there, Bugsy. Get back to you again. Get dark.

Stop dating if you don't want to. You don't HAVE to prove anything to anybody. You only have to be able to look at yourself in the mirror and feel good with you. When you are ready, the men will appear, because they will sense it. You will carry yourself in such a way that says you are open to the possibilities. Right now, you are closed off. I think you have to get about 99% over Drac before cashing out of this. Until then, just enjoy your life, your family, your girlfriends, whatever.

There is such a huge difference in the ways you have chosen to heal vs. Drac.

Drac is constantly searching out there for something that will make him "happy". Some outside force that will come into his life and fix things.

You, on the other hand, look inside. You have done so much inward searching and questioning. And you know that the key to your happiness does not lie out in the world with someone else, but right there in your own skin.

Its great to be a "one door at a time" kind of girl when it comes to relationships. But I STRONGLY suggest you take a different approach when it comes to dating. Do not treat every first date as the start of a relationship.

Especially when you are just entering this world and are vulnerable to your unmet needs.

I really suggest that you date a lot of people. And look at it as forming new friendships first and foremost. Don't start every date with the idea that it will lead to something more.
Kind of a "live-in-the-moment" approach.

Thanks SL -
Yep, this is where I am comfortable for now. Best place for me at this moment in time.


Lexxxy-

Yes, and the best part is that I've decided that my own skin is a pretty darn good place to live. Thanks for the reminder.



I had that in mind before going out Saturday. This is how I had set my expectation/attitude beforehand.

What I haven't shared with you all is what I've heard since then from V. He's a very nice guy, but he is going from zero to sixty in 2.2 seconds with things. He's sent me several emails which are very open, very honest, and a WAY too much for me right now. It really got me spinning with having to think about things that I realize I am totally not prepared for yet.

He's saying GREAT things - SO many things that are right in line with my thinking, my values, and many, many of the MB principles. Things that I definately want to hear from someone with whom I would have a realtionship. Things I am dying to hear from Drac.

Problem is, that this isn't yet a relationship and all of the things he's saying are much much too soon.

I'm pretty sure this is what triggered my 'freaking out' these last few days.

As you said, I wanted to find some new friendships. Now I just feel bad because I don't want to hurt someone who is so nice. He's been wounded in similar ways. He has made a journey very much like mine through his divorce. He's made changes almost identical to mine. But I am in no way ready for what he has in mind.

So, it was a good and bad first date experience so far,,,,,,

Hey Bugsy,

I can totally relate to your theory of being a one door at a time kinda girl.

It feels disloyal to go out with someone and then go out with someone else.

I think it is necessary in order to really see what is out there and be able to choose correctly.

But it just doesn' "feel" right.

If I went out with a guy for dinner or whatever, and then saw him another night out with someone else. I'd write him off. Player. Obviously, he was not interested enough in me to get through a couple of dates before writing ME off and seeing someone else.

Fair? I dunno.

But if he shows disloyalty that early on.......

I think the problem is that I look at anyone I go out with as a potential relationship. I'm too old to date and be a player. I just don't have the time or energy. If I commit to a date it is because I am interested in a possible future.

I am VERY picky about who I choose to go out with and am pretty good at putting out the "not available" vibe when someone shows interest that I am not interested in.

There is a guy that does work for our office. He has on two occasions now asked me out. I am just not interested in him at all, friends or otherwise. I have kindly refused him both times. I won't even go to lunch with him because I'm just simply not interested. He is not the type of guy I would date and there is an "ick" factor to him. I don't know why, but all the ladies on the office are very put off by him.

I don't believe in giving up your HOPE..

I'm saying to BURY it DEEP inside AGAIN...

Put it in SAFEKEEPING..locked away in a VAULT inside your HEART...

I'm saying that if you don't LOCK it away THEN you will lose it...

MAKE SENSE?????

I understand how you LOVE the MAN that DRAC was...

And I really believe that people can CHANGE...

I've live to see such MIRACLES even...

But it's HIS WORK and GOD'S WORK..OUT OF YOUR CONTROL...

You're only in control of YOURSELF and YOUR LIFE...