My God Man! She must be an angel!


Instead why don’t you consider telling her how your love for her manifests itself? Let me explain. “I loved helping you with your work project,” or “I loved the way we built our house together,” or “I loved buying you flowers the other day,” or “I loved the way you smiled at the kids the other day.” Do you see the difference? “I love you,” says nothing except the proclamation of your feelings. “I love this or that about you,” is a much more overt statement that actually defines your love. It is less personal and more personal at the same time. Best of all, it requires no other response except a simple nod of the head and perhaps a smile.

Mr. G

Mr. G: WW an angel? Well not lately

But in the grand scope of our marriage she's been a wonderful life-long companion.

And the "love manifests itself" thing I really like! Wise words! Just this morning as we lie in bed talking (about the only time we actually get to be alone and really talk), she asked what I love about her.

I rambled on for a while...love her smile, her smell, love the inside jokes we have together that no one else sees. I love the way she interacts with our kiddos. Love the way she teases me, my Dad, my brother, my buddies (she can really be a smart-[censored]:). Love that we enjoy recreational activities together -- travel, fitness, watching football & baseball, spending time with kiddos/family. I love when she tells me to go hunting with buddies/family...that she'll take care of the kiddos. Love the way she used to hug me...like a kid hugs, close, tight, long (this was before the A). Love the way she bats her blue eyes at my Dad when she asks him for a favor. Love the way she dresses.

Yesterday was a tough day (tummy in knots), but last night after she got home we headed to the gym together for a workout. After we picked up some dinner and watched football.

I find myself wanting to do things for her -- rub back, start car in the morning, clean up around the house. I'm trying to avoid love busters and stay on the positive. I still get the sense she's in the fog. And I don't trust her one bit. The keylogger is going on computers today.

I feel a bit nervous about keylogging, afraid I might find out more incriminating information. But I need to snoop.

And the MB books getting ordered today as well.

Thanks for all the support. This site has been a Godsend! Without it I'm not sure what I would have done. It's nice to see a place and read stories about re-building marriages after infidelity. Keep the adivce coming...D.

I suggest that you print out the Emotional Needs questionnaire on
this site and that both you and your wife fill it out.

It might give you better insight into what you both need from each other, and where you are missing some things.

I highly recommend that you counsel with the Harley's. It is worth every penny.

Glad to see you are getting the books.

Your anger and reluctance to trust your wife are very normal. Just don't act out.

Step back and think what is healthiest for you and your family before you react to anything.

The keylogger is good. Just come here and get help before you react if you find stuff that really hurts.

Sounds like your WW is trying, but you guys really need to find out why your WW has been unfaithful twice in your marriage and what you can do to prevent that from happening again.

You are partly responsible for what has been wrong in your marriage, but you are NOT responsible for your WW's affair. That is a choice that she made, and regardless of what was going on in your relationship, that is NO excuse for an affair.

I admire you for giving her a second chance. I have to say it would probably be a deal breaker for me if my H was unfaithful again.

Best wishes!

Love in Christ,
Miss M

Of course.

Hey, she lost focus somewhere. We’re here to help you guide her to get that focus back. There is an education in these pages that will teach you both about life and love. I think it is essential that you both learn all there is.

One other observation:


You will find that your wife will carry this fear for many years. She knows that she is the one who messed up and she will worry that one day you will come to your senses and throw her out. She is worried that right now you are so shocked, hurt and concerned with the damage she has done that you will go to extra lengths to save the marriage. She likely fears that you will again gain your sanity and she will be paid back for her treachery. It may take forever to convince her otherwise.

Is she planning on attending any Marriage Counseling with you? Your counselor sounds sharp.

Mr. G

Miss M: Thanks for advice here. Emotional needs Q is printed out and I'm waiting for a good chance for us to fill out with interruptions.

I know I'm partly responsible...even realized that after A#1 many years ago. But you are right, and it's good to hear again that SHE made the decision to have an affair. No excuse.

When talking today I questioned her about going down that path -- starting the phone calls...continuing the calls/contact...hooking up in person in Vegas. She said she didn't want to tell me when she started having feelings for him for fear of hurting me. Then it all started spiraling out of control. She said she just couldn't control herself and stop.

Mr. G: Again, thanks. She's planning to meet with counselor asap. But the nearest time is Jan 13th(!?). I met with my counselor on Monday. We plan to do couples counseling as soon as possible.

My fear with counselors is that they will drive wedge between us with something. I'd consider Harley's but I really want to do in-person counseling at this time and see where things go.

WW tells me she felt out of control (see above), and doesn't know why she allowed herself to put our marriage, the kids, everything in jeapordy. She told friend she expected me to have her stuff thrown on lawn and locks changed after DDay#2 (this affair).

I'm sooooooo glad I found this site and am so appreciative of all the support. After DDay#1 (1996) I wanted to work on things, but received a lot of negative feedback from friends & family. Luckily I came to my own conclusion and had support of counselor at the time.

I have to keep reminding myself this isn't a quick fix. I want things to be back to normal, I want to forgive and forget...but I know I must be patient, keep following Plan A, being a good husband, avoiding love busters, hanging in there.

Watched the end of Castaway other night. Seeing Tom Hanks monolauge about "I've just got to keep breathing...the sun's going to come up tomorrow...you never know what the tide might bring in." That keeps me going.

Sorry I ramble. I've got no friends I can confide in right now and the family is out of the loop (they didn't handle A#1 well in 1996).

Thanks again for support and feedback. Very much appreciated.

My wife confessed her adultery to me (a collision course was inevitable) from a hotel room that she checked into, so sure she was that I would end the marriage. She told me that she was never so shocked in her life than when I told her to come home.


A good counselor will give good advice. You are perhaps worried because you have fear that you are somehow calculable for the state of your marriage. The answer is, that yes, you are calculable. She is too. Just remember, you are NOT responsible for her affair, she did that on her own. You have nothing to fear. You and your wife are on the same side, you just don’t know it yet. It is the counselor's target to help make that happen.


What are you waiting for? Is the appointment on Jan. 16 between your counselor and her? It is very reasonable and smart to have one counselor that initially meets with each of you separately and then together.


You’re doing great and I mean that. Enjoy the celebrating the New Year. Things are improving.

Mr. G

DNU,

The one single thing that must happen is that she take responsibility for how she handles stress, and issues in your marriage. Twice now she has chosen to have an affair. Meaning she learned NOTHING from the first affair. The goal here is that she learning something from this affair.

You cannot educate her, she will rebel against that. But, you can ask questions of her that might make her think.

You could ask: What did you tell yourself, that made it alright for you to violate YOUR OWN morals and promises?

What made it right in your mind to not honor your promises to yourself? DNU, many people don't realize but those vows we all took were really vows to ourselves. Who else was going to make sure we treated our spouses well, were faithful, acted in a loving manner? No one but US!

Ask her about her feelings about herself and the kids. IN short, while you cannot educate, you can cultivate.

Cultivate her thinking about herself and inspecting her thinking about herself. She failed herself more than she failed you or the kids. If she is a woman of any substance at all eventually, she will realize how big and deep this failing reaches within herself, and by coincidence how deeply it reached within you.

Why did she think an affair would improve anything. It certainly wasn't working on the marriage. It sure doesn't insure an orderly divorce. It does not address the kids needs. It violates her own boundaries and morals.

Ultimately, she will have to come up with a well defined plan to protect HER boundaries and thus protect the marriage. By this I am NOT talking about my diet "plan". I plan to lose 20 lbs.

Of course that is not a plan, because i have had this plan for years. Further, it has no action items, no feedback loop, no time line, no details at all. A plan to protect her boundaries has to have all of those.

AT some later time I will offer how I planned (and yes it was an actual plan) to stay faithful to my W of 30+ years. It worked, but it was very concrete,not just a wish.

As she comes out of this, she will need to make you a plan, and this is something you can also cultivate her thinking about.


"How do you plan to protect your own boundaries in the future?"

Let her ponder that one. The answer to it will ultimately determine whether you stay or go. If she has no plan or resists making one, then given the track record you know what is the likely outcome.

Must go. Happy New Year!

JL

JL, Thanks, an excellent question! One of my fears is that we work on the marriage and arrive in same place months/years down the road. This is good advice on how to protect the marriage.

I've mentioned giving each other e-mail and phone passwords, but she was hesitant. I didn't push, feeling that the fog was still in her. I'll re-address in future.

thanks again for the reply. Helps a TON!

Of course, The Plan! It is the key element to most ALL recoveries. It is the specific list of actions that your wife will author to insure that you (her husband) will ALWAYS be safe. It may be perhaps the single most loving thing one spouse can ever do for the other and in the case of infidelity it becomes a critical piece of recovery.

However, before she can begin to construct such a worthy effort she must come to grip with one all-important question, “Why did she have an affair?”

JL is on-spot with his assessment. I am willing to bet that your counselor may help too. In your next session ask him/her why people have affairs.

Time to put my party hat on. See you next year.

Mr. G

I cannot thank you all enough for the support and replies. My first posts here were reluctant...I was afraid I was going to get the "you must be a fool to keep her after A#2", "dump her", "don't be a doormat", etc., etc., etc.,

But I'm glad I stuck around! Today has been a much better day, mainly because my WW is talking more, opening up more, and the support here is fantastic!

I'm walking up street to the neighborhood new years party...and will have only a beer or two. No need to add liquid courage to my already fragile state of mind.

See you all next year...Happy New YEAR!

Just for New Years!!

Blessing for you in 2009!

The Lord bless you and keep you
The Lord lift His countenance upon you
And give you peace
And give you peace

The Lord make his face to shine
Upon you
And be gracious unto you
The Lord be gracious
Gracious unto you

Amen

Happy New Year!

May the Lord Bless you and your family. Praying for your recovery
and God's blessings on your children and your marriage.

Love in Christ,
Miss M

Thanks Miss M, that's one of my favorite parts of a service.

Wife had to work, so walked up to nieghbors house for New Years party. One of wife's friends knows most of the story (about A#2, but not A#1) and I've talked to her a few times.

When new years hit I looked over to her and said, "hope 2009's better than 2008..." She smiled and said "Oh YES, me too!"



I'm thinking about the WW this morning and trying to identify things that hurt our relationship. Communication is a primary issue, but a broad stroke of the brush...so I dive deeper and came up with a few:

The phrase "I don't know" or IDK I hear this a lot when I ask a difficult question. I think it's the wife's way of insulating herself from difficult topics, of avoiding issues. It's extremely frustrating when she clams up and doesn't want to talk and uses "I don't know" to shut me down. Yet some times the IDK stems from her indecisiveness. Where you want to eat tonight? IDK.

The phrase "I'm tired." Again, a conversation ender used to get out of difficult questions, to put up barriers.

Intimacy communication. In our post DDay talks our love life came up. For the first time ever WW admitted our love life pretty much stunk. I was a little shocked to hear her say this, & I agreed and asked why the topic hadn't been brought up before? She was unsure how to approach topic, unsure how I would react. Upset that she couldn't reach O with me while having traditional sex. Felt our love life was stale and predictable. Yet not sure how to spice it up (I think she knows, she's just too insecure to tell me)

[on a side note, I'm unsure when to resume sexual activity with my wife? Haven't done EN Q's, but I'm sensing SF is going to be pretty high for me. I'm sure very low for her. Suggestions greatly appreciated]

Stubbornness. Wife is as much stubborn as she is indecisive. When I get an IDK it's hard to know when she's just being indecisive, or she's shutting me out. If I push too much more barriers go up and communication really breaks down. Can you see the communication issues we face are LARGE?!!

I'm a talker...love to hash out issues, examine all angles, think things through. But I've learned through being around her what topics to shy away from (yes, my BAD!). Find myself saying, "no, don't bring that up. don't like where that will go." or the famous "she can't be having an affiar...trust her." So from my side of the isle in this communication break down is the "he's holding back back."

DNU, I have just been catching up on your thread and see you are getting excellent advice from JustLearning and MrGoodstuff. A couple of concerns that stood out to me are:

1. has she ended all contact with her OM? If the OM is married, has his wife been notified of the affair?

2. is your marriage counselor a qualified counselor who understands the dynamics of adultery and uses MB principles? The reason I ask is that marriage counselors have the highest failure rate of any of the counseling disciplines at 84%. They are not pro-marriage and don't have the slightest idea how to save a marriage. It is very hard to find a good MC. Is your MC familiar with MB concepts?

IC is also troublesome and can cause huge problems in a marriage because most will counsel the client to pursue personal interests at the expense of a marriage. I have found that IC's tend to be trained to be AMORAL. What I mean by that is that if a client is doing something BAD, instead of counseling the client to stop doing the bad thing, they will teach them to lower their standards to accommodate the bad behavior so they will feel better. We have had IC's urge spouses to "separate" so they could test out the affair.

I agree that making demands is not the way to go, however, there are certain things that need to happen in order to effect recovery. This article by Dr Harley summarizes it well:

Requirements for Recovery from an Affair

I'll be honest, when I first read your post I was a little nervous and defensive. I want to be working in the right direction, following these guidelines. But some of them make me nervous and uncomfortable.

Yes, my wife has come clean with all details of the affair -- how started with phone/texting, continued to grow an emotional connection. Understood it was wrong and could possibly hurt me, family, but couldn't stop herself. couldn't talk to me for fear of hurting me.

It was her suggestion to meet in Vegas (he lives many, many miles away). I haven't asked those "what did you do in bed" questions. ASked that in A#1 and it was very hard to hear. Not sure I want to know that right now. She's being very honest with me and even brough up a love buster I had no idea I was doing to hurt her. We still struggle mightly with communication.

Wife is setting up counseling and is open and honest. She's not yet comfortable sharing e-mail, phone logs, etc., just yet. I believe she is still in fog of withdrawl. I've installed eBlaster and should have e-mail password by end of weekend.

We have spent a lot of time together since DDay. I'm trying best to stay away from LB's and meet as many of her EN's as possible. She seems really receptive, but again I'm worried about the counselors and how they will work with us.

I believe phone counseling is not the right thing for wife and I right now. Harley's may be in the future.

What else can I tell you?

IC = individual counseling? If that's the case, then yes, I see your point.

I don't think the OM will ever resume contact with my WW. I know him from two vacations spent together. Three years ago we did a "guys" vacation to do some hunting. Guys tend to brag about themselves, at least he did. In August of this year our family vacationed with him and extended family. That is where WW met him. Phone calls ensued from there...

He's 45 and divorced, live the bachelor's life. Good job, no ties, comes and goes as pleases. Very smooth talker. Gift of gab. Good looking guy. Bragged about how easy it was to meet women, woo them, get what he wanted and be done (gee, don't you think I should have had this conversation with WW during that vacation? Probably wouldn't have helped).

OM was very adamant about keeping his "friend" at distance and never marrying her. Liked the freedom to prowl.

I thought he was a player back when met him on the guys vacation. He was charming and gracious on the family vacation when wife met him.

I honestly struggle with confronting him on this issue. On the one hand I want him to know that I know. On the other hand what good will it do? He's a thousand miles away.

IC means independent counselor. I may have misunderstood you, but I thought I read you all were seeing IC's?


What makes you nervous and uncomfortable specifically?


Can you clarify why it would not be right? I have learned - through experience - that the Harleys can achieve more in 2 sessions than 25 sessions with most MC, just because they know what they are doing. They are worth every penny and are ACTION oriented rather than feeling oriented. It is because of this that they tend to me much more effective.

Good! I am concerned that she won't open her life to you, because people who have nothing to hide, don't hide, so I am glad you took action and put that keylogger on her computer.

The way I would present the steps to recovery is to tell her you have been reading up on this and "here is what I need in order to feel safe again." Show her that article from Dr Harley and see how she reacts.

I think I'm scared to confront him. No, I am scared to confront him. He's powerful personality and I sense a bit of a temper. I'm not sure what he might do if his "friend" is told of the A? MIght he react violently towards WW or me? That scares the crap out of me.

And I'm afraid if OM is confronted the A would be communicated to mutual friends and eventually get back to family. I'm not sure my family could forgive my WW for another affair. Our family is very close and I don't want them interfering while WW and I try to build our marriage back.

Counsling: I'm not doubting Harley's expertise in this area one bit. It's important to me to get non-verbals from counselor during sessions. I've met with counselor individually and WW is still trying to get a first meeting with a different counselor. Want to see where that leads us before deciding on a couples counselor.

DNU, I can't see any point in confronting the OM. I mean, he already knows your W is married and knows who you are. Is there a reason why you are considering this?

I do see great value in telling his GF, though. This is information that is pertinent to her life and she needs to know.


And I am sure you realize that the value of a counselor lies in his/her expertise, not in non-verbal communication? It is the quality of the verbal communication that matters.

Telling his GF would be confronting him in my eyes. GF would obviously confront him about the A and OM would know it came from me (or my wife) and what he might do scares the crap out of me. OM is former military, carry's concealed weapon at all times...can be very intimidating when wants to be.

I'd like my WW to send a NC letter and be done with it.

Yes, value of counselor lies in expertise, not non-verbal communication. Quality matters, yes, you are right. I'd like to give counselors a chance and see where that takes us. Harley's is in back of my mind and I've mentioned to WW already. For now I really think WW needs to be in a counselors office talking directly to a person to open talks.