Welcome to the
Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum

This is a community where people come in search of marriage related support, answers, or encouragement. Also, information about the Marriage Builders principles can be found in the books available for sale in the Marriage Builders® Bookstore.
If you would like to join our discussion forum, please read the Announcement Forum for instructions, rules, & guidelines.
The members of this community are peers and not professionals. Professional coaching is available by clicking on the link titled Coaching Center at the top of this page.
We trust that you will find the Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum to be a helpful resource for you. We look forward to your participation.
Once you have reviewed all the FAQ, tech support and announcement information, if you still have problems that are not addressed, please e-mail the administrators at mbrestored@gmail.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 9 of 91 1 2 7 8 9 10 11 90 91
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 8,079
T
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 8,079
hold


 Quote:
Mrs. Hold gained .6 pounds last week. She "cheated" twice and had pizza for dinner. And it may have something to do with her cycle. Hopefully this week will be better.


A couple slices of pizza are not the issue..a person can still lose weight even if they eat a couple slices of pizza..however, if she's like many (if not most) women, her being on her cycle may have more to do with it.

Has she gone to the doctor yet to have her thyroid tested to check if that is more the issue?


Simul Justus Et Peccator
“Righteous and at the same time a sinner.”
(Martin Luther)
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 9,836
H
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 9,836
 Originally Posted By: catperson
hold, are you going on walks or anything with Mrs Hold?


As far as I can remember, Mrs. Hold and I have not spent any UA time since the kids got back from visiting the grandparents over New Years. Nevertheless, she got me risque Valentine's Day cards. She asked for a hug yesterday and 2 hugs this morning. Those are things I asked for and never got while we were working on our marriage. Makes staying with her more pleasant, but I am still unwilling to exit withdrawal.

In any event, what Stella and TR posted is true. To me, change = death and I will not change no matter how miserable I am. While that remains true, nothing else matters.


When you can see it coming, duck!
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 30
J
Member
Offline
Member
J
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 30


In any event, what Stella and TR posted is true. To me, change = death and I will not change no matter how miserable I am. While that remains true, nothing else matters. [/quote]

Hold that is just plain stupid! Why does changing yourself and making yours and your families life better = death.

Man go get yourself some help!!


prev jillybean36 Live for today for there maynot be a tomorrow
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 9,836
H
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 9,836
I will. I guess in these trying economic times everyone feels they need a shrink. I am having a hard time finding one with slots available. But I will.


When you can see it coming, duck!
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,172
H
Member
Offline
Member
H
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,172
 Originally Posted By: Seabird
 Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
Hopefully I am unhappy enough to finally take some advice.


This hurts my head.

Hopefully... You're unhappy enough... To finally take some advice.

For what?

Be happy???

In order to be happy, you need to first be even more unhappy before you might take and follow the advice you're given?

Are you flailing H? Looks like you're flailing to me.


Actually it makes perfect sense if you've ever read the book Passionate Marriage by Schnarch. The concept of differentiation is what HOLD is referring to here, which is essentially the idea that within the context of an intimate relationship we will not engage in real change unless and until the pain of remaining the same outweighs the uncertain future that we face by changing. HOLD is undoubtedly capable of absorbing enormous amounts of pain and anxiety, as is Mrs HOLD, before choosing to better differentiate themselves, which is what is required for either of them to move forward at least in my view.

HOLD, been a long time since I've posted. I pray that Mrs HOLD bears fruit while participating in this newest weight loss endeavor. I know her weight gain has always been a real sticking point for you, and while I know resolving the weight issue by itself won't go nearly far enough to permit you to exit withdrawal and re-enter the conflict stage in an effort to get back to intimacy, it's better than the alternative yes?


God Bless,

HitchHiker

All I want to do is learn to think like God thinks. , I want to know Gods thoughts; all the rest are just details. , When the solution is simple, God is answering. - Albert Einstein

INTJ married to an ENFJ
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 9,836
H
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 9,836
Hey Hitch, thanks for stopping by. Hope your life is going well.

I am all in favor of Mrs. Hold losing weight. I have been as supportive as I know how to be. Mostly I like that it sets a good example for D12 (who lost 6 pounds over the past 4 months despite hitting puberty - so the hoped for resculpting of her body by hormones is occurring). Also, it is healthier for Mrs. Hold. Which I see as a good thing. After all, she is the mother of my children and I know they want her in their life as long as possible. Those are what I see as the "good" reasons I support her weight loss.

The "less good" reasons are that I expect to feel less embarrassed to be seen out with her if she loses significant amounts of weight. And if she loses significant amounts of weight then she is more likely to find someone else. Which I view as good for both of us. Which, given how much I have read here over the years about the pain of infidelity, shows you how much of a whack job I am.

You are correct that I used to view weight loss as something she could do to help improve our marriage. Now I am not looking to go through conflict to return to intimacy with her. When I am ready to differentiate I won't be changing in ways that bring us closer together. She may find me more desirable and try to chase me. But I will be running away.


When you can see it coming, duck!
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 8,079
T
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 8,079
hold

 Quote:
Now I am not looking to go through conflict to return to intimacy with her. When I am ready to differentiate I won't be changing in ways that bring us closer together. She may find me more desirable and try to chase me. But I will be running away.


Though you are not looking to go through, I believe you would go through it. Because despite everything you have been through, you still love her.

I think the most difficult part for you, is going to be trusting she's really willing to change and work on the marriage. And you will go through what most people go through at that stage.."why now?? Why after all these years are you willing to do this when you haven't been willing before??"

But its possible all the anger you have been sitting on for so long will come out full force..probably not in a physically violent way but verbally..but I could be wrong, people snap all the time--you hear about these folks on the news when they interview neighbors.."they always seemed like such a nice couple, he was always so nice to her, I never expected anything like this."

So I think it would be best for you, your wife and your kids, if you work on that anger and resentment now..before you snap and either say or do something horrid, if she decides it's time to finally work on the marriage..or even to end it..

I think even then..you might snap, that it's taken her so long to decide she doesn't want to be married to you anymore..

Last edited by ThornedRose; 02/19/09 12:23 AM.

Simul Justus Et Peccator
“Righteous and at the same time a sinner.”
(Martin Luther)
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 9,836
H
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 9,836
We can agree to disagree whether I would go through it or how much I still love her as a romantic partner rather than as the mother of my children and a fellow human being who I know has good intentions toward most other people.

As for working on our marriage, I am no longer open to that. We both need to work on ourselves first. If we both make major changes, maybe then we could discuss working on our marriage.

I agree with you that anger is my major life problem at this point. I am getting help for my personality disorder. I cannot imagine that my anger will toward Mrs. Hold will dissipate before our divorce.

But all things are possible, so I won't say never.


When you can see it coming, duck!
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,172
H
Member
Offline
Member
H
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,172
 Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
Hey Hitch, thanks for stopping by. Hope your life is going well.


HOLD, thanks for responding. Life is currently going as well as can be expected given the current economic climate. I am simply hoping to stay gainfully employed at this point. Relationally, W and I are on somewhat of a high right now and are really connecting and avoiding LB's consistently. I've also finally had some real victory over my narcissism and have become much more of a servant to her by spending a lot of my waking moments studying my W at every opportunity in an effort to love her in ways that are truly meaningful to her. Don't get me wrong it's oftentimes two steps forward one step back, but overall, I feel like we're in a good place right now and heading in the right direction consistently, PTL.

 Quote:
I am all in favor of Mrs. Hold losing weight. I have been as supportive as I know how to be. Mostly I like that it sets a good example for D12 (who lost 6 pounds over the past 4 months despite hitting puberty - so the hoped for resculpting of her body by hormones is occurring). Also, it is healthier for Mrs. Hold. Which I see as a good thing. After all, she is the mother of my children and I know they want her in their life as long as possible. Those are what I see as the "good" reasons I support her weight loss.


They are good reasons. Glad to hear about D12's success and progress as well. Small victories are worth celebrating! \:\) I'm actually in the exact opposite situation personally. D14 has recently been diagnosed with ED-NOS or Eating Disorder - Not Otherwise Specified. Closest to anorectic symptom-wise. This was a huge wake up call for us back in December and we are now in a mix of individual, family, and nutritional counseling due to this latest development. The good news is D14 is aware of her need to get better, but it's obviously still quite a large struggle for her, and therefore affects the entire family from many different aspects.

 Quote:
The "less good" reasons are that I expect to feel less embarrassed to be seen out with her if she loses significant amounts of weight. And if she loses significant amounts of weight then she is more likely to find someone else. Which I view as good for both of us. Which, given how much I have read here over the years about the pain of infidelity, shows you how much of a whack job I am.


HOLD, I don't see these as less good reasons. I don't see your EN for physical attraction as invalid in any way, shape, or form. I hear you on the concerns surrounding infidelity, but whatever her motivation, the result seems encouraging to say the least.

 Quote:
You are correct that I used to view weight loss as something she could do to help improve our marriage. Now I am not looking to go through conflict to return to intimacy with her. When I am ready to differentiate I won't be changing in ways that bring us closer together. She may find me more desirable and try to chase me. But I will be running away.


I know you feel that way now and you may very well be correct in your assertion that your feelings toward her will not change no matter what kind of success Mrs HOLD experiences. One of the realities that I've come to accept in relationships is that no matter how much one spouse improves, if the other spouse refuses to participate meaningfully, it is difficult for the intimate relationship to improve meaningfully. Yes, the hope is that the one spouse making improvements and changes by definition changes the dynamics of the intimate relationship, but the underlying assumption the the changes to the relationship dynamics are always going to be positive is what I no longer agree with. Positive change individually indeed can lead to negative change relationally. As you alluded to, if you better differentiate yourself, this may eventually mean that you actively choose to no longer be married to Mrs HOLD, not because of your ill will towards Mrs HOLD, but because you come to the realization that you can no longer violate your own integrity as an individual by staying in the marriage due to emotional fusion between the two of you. This is a perfect example of positive individual change leading to negative change relationally. Sure, it's entirely possible that better differentiating yourself could lead to Mrs HOLD responding in a similar fashion. At the very least, if this actually does occur and some type of positive relational change results, then perhaps at some point you may challenge your own assumptions with respect to the marriage. I'd submit that you'll have to cross that bridge if and when you come to it. \:\)


God Bless,

HitchHiker

All I want to do is learn to think like God thinks. , I want to know Gods thoughts; all the rest are just details. , When the solution is simple, God is answering. - Albert Einstein

INTJ married to an ENFJ
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 9,836
H
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 9,836
Anything is possible. Previously, I did not imagine that I could be the partner she needs me to be while she works on her issues. She needs someone who will not pressure her for sex and not mind if it doesn't occur. I never thought I could be that partner. Now that I no longer desire to have sex with her, maybe I CAN be the partner she needs. Right now, I don't want to be that partner. But feelings can change. They changed in this direction. Presumably it is possible for them to turn back.


When you can see it coming, duck!
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 120
E
Member
Offline
Member
E
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 120
Since when is anger a "personality disorder"? Is that was this liberal, no-fault country is coming to? If you have anger then the problem lies in your head?

I seriously disagree. You have cause to feel anger, and depression too. Living in a situation like yours is not fulfilling, at least not in a lot of ways.

I would wager that if you won the lottery, and Mrs. Hold lost a ton of weight, she got a job and paid back everything she ever swindled, and she started having crazy sex with you, then you would feel quite happy and content and all of this talk about personality disorders would go out the window.

So it is causual. Work on the sources, not the symptoms.

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 6,531
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 6,531
Easy said what I have been saying all along.

If you are in a bad marriage, a bad situation and married to a miserable selfish woman, then you are SUPPOSED TO BE UNHAPPY!

Do you know why?

Unhappiness is sometimes a SIGN that tells you to protect yourself by removing yourself from a marriage like that. It is given us.....so that we dodos get the idea that we should NOT REMAIN IN THAT HURTFUL situation.

If you were on drugs, or crazy, or simply for some reason...happy...even with abuse and neglect, then your body would not recognize a bad situation, and therefore you would continue to be blasted with awfulness..

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 120
E
Member
Offline
Member
E
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 120
At the same time, Hold gets blasted for making resolution to take steps for his own happiness (which probably includes things that would de-stabilize his family), and then falling back to status quo.

I see the situation as perfectly normal. And it has more to do with strength of character than it does mental disorder. The family comes first, no question about it.

My point to Hold is that there IS satisfaction out there, on all different levels. Anything from a nice massage from a hot, young provider to a full-on affair to a discreet one night stand. I'm using sexual examples here, because that seems to be Hold's dearest desire at the moment.

Hold has basically set his boundaries, but those boundaries don't have to be a prison. The world is rife with pleasurable offerings.

Last edited by EasyE; 02/20/09 06:04 PM.
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 11,245
C
Member
Offline
Member
C
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 11,245
Excuse me? Are you telling Hold to go have a one-night stand?

Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 9,836
H
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 9,836
 Originally Posted By: catperson
Excuse me? Are you telling Hold to go have a one-night stand?


Not to worry. It will never happen.


When you can see it coming, duck!
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 120
E
Member
Offline
Member
E
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 120
I'm saying Hold doesn't have a personality disorder, his anger and depression is largely causual, and nobody shoulod blame him for hedging on making some drastic decision, ie divorce, that is
often talked about.

Perhaps I was out of line issuing those examples, but they are ones I would consider were I to find myself in Hold's situation.

Joined: May 2008
Posts: 429
H
Member
Offline
Member
H
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 429
I have read posts from Hold where he says that he was sad/depressed before he even met the missus. The situation with MrsHold probably has made this worse, but doesn't change the fact that he feels something wrong within himself.

I don't think that anger is a personality defect but an expression of inner unhappiness. I would imagine if he felt better about himself, for his own reasons, the situation with the Mrs would improve.

That said, I think his anger and stand-offishness is having an effect on the Mrs. Who knows she might even get a job some day!

Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 9,836
H
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 9,836
 Originally Posted By: Happy2CU
I don't think that anger is a personality defect but an expression of inner unhappiness. I would imagine if he felt better about himself, for his own reasons, the situation with the Mrs would improve.


You are correct that if I felt better about myself, the situation with Mrs. Hold would resolve itself. Whether leaving her would be an "improvement" is for each reader to judge.

 Quote:
That said, I think his anger and stand-offishness is having an effect on the Mrs. Who knows she might even get a job some day!


She will not get a job while we are married and I retain my job. She has made that very clear despite my being clear about all the things I have no intention of paying for. Every time she asks "when are we going to _____?", I respond with "whenever you can pay for it yourself." There are even things for the kids that she wants that I have rejected (save the date cards for D12's Bat Mitzvah, another travel basketball team for S14). Nothing seems important enough for her to work to obtain it.

Then again, the same could be said about me. As I have often remarked, we are very well matched.


When you can see it coming, duck!
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 30
J
Member
Offline
Member
J
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 30
Sad Sad Sad as adults you two can play the games, feel sorry for yourselves all you want. The really horrible fact of your issues is how it will affect your children longterm. They both are old enough to figure out what is going on. If you don't make some changes soon you will have two kids who may grow up with alot of their own issues because they spent their lives dealing with yours.


prev jillybean36 Live for today for there maynot be a tomorrow
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 9,836
H
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 9,836
Agreed. That is why I never say I am staying FOR the kids. I am staying with the kids. I am staying with them for ME.


When you can see it coming, duck!
Page 9 of 91 1 2 7 8 9 10 11 90 91

Link Copied to Clipboard
Forum Search
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 11 guests, and 68 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
bb1471, OTDL2001, DexterWalsh, Roja jayakumar, MarriageIsWork
71,659 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums67
Topics133,523
Posts2,322,497
Members71,660
Most Online3,185
Jan 27th, 2020
Building Marriages That Last A Lifetime
Copyright © 1995-2020, Marriage Builders®. All Rights Reserved.  |  Web Development by SunStar Media.
Site Navigation
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5