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The one you believed was real. That would be all of them, actually.
"Never forget that your pain means nothing to a WS." ~Mulan
"An ethical man knows it is wrong to cheat on his wife. A moral man will not actually do it." ~ Ducky
WS: They are who they are.
When an eel lunges out And it bites off your snout Thats a moray ~DS
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...and true repentance is not merely a change in actions but a change in thinking that results in a change in action. Very well said! Consider the character of a repentant heart. Then watch for the actions that demonstrate those character traits of a truly repentant person. Also, watch for actions that demonstrate an unrepentant heart. A WS may be willing to do SOME actions that do look repentant. But there are some they will refuse (like not using an IM), that indicate unrepentance.
Happily married to HerPapaBear
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...a result of ME being run by my own FEARS. This certainly seems to be the theme of this thread. We often see this moment as our big shot at recovery. Fear takes over and we make poor choices and lay our heart out there yet again to the wayward.
Happily married to HerPapaBear
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Probably the most important thing I learned from false recovery was that it isn't simply actions that define waywardness. Not actively engaged in an active affair is not the same thing as being a FORMER wayward spouse. Just like an alcoholic who has not had a drink in 6 months does not indicate that they are "recovered."
Real recovery requires true repentance and true repentance is not merely a change in actions but a change in thinking that results in a change in action.
It is all too possible to have NC, change your actions and interactions and still be wayward in thinking. This can lead to a restarting of the affair or another new one with no real warning.
And it requires more than just a lifting of the fog of the affair to truly change from wayward to FORMER wayward status. As long as the phrase "I'm sorry, but..." still permeates conversations, the F has not yet been earned. In fact, it isn't even really pending. It indicates that the WS is still but a renter and has not yet become a buyer. It means a sense of GIVE and TAKE rather than GIVE and RECEIVE.
Mark Ding ding ding! My H's first A ended when I exposed to OWH. H was so resentful of me ending his fun before it "ran its course" that for two years he was wayward in his thinking and immature toward me. Guess what happened? Yep, old gf # 2 calls and off we go on yet another affair. This time produced an OC and a LTA.
Faith
me: FWW/BS 52 H: FWH/BS 49 DS 30 DD 21 DS 15 OCDS 8
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IMCO, the best approach is to assume WS never change their spots. No matter what they may say. No matter how many tears they cry.
I learned this via re-re-re-re-recovery:
Assume, whether they are assiduoulsy performing some or all recovery related things or not, assume deep down they will always be who they really are, and who they always were.
Assume they are playing you, or will be again sooner or later
Then you will not be overly disappointed.
Then you will be somewhat prepared.
Then your heart will be protected, if only a little.
"Never forget that your pain means nothing to a WS." ~Mulan
"An ethical man knows it is wrong to cheat on his wife. A moral man will not actually do it." ~ Ducky
WS: They are who they are.
When an eel lunges out And it bites off your snout Thats a moray ~DS
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* I should have been less patient.
* That she was only "on board" with parts of recovery. I ignored this, thinking that she would come around to the rest of things. The reality is she was "on board" with none of it.
* Ignore meaningless "progress." The big things matter, NC, O&H, time together, committing to recovery, and action. If those aren't happening, then the "good talk" last night, and the WS said "ILY", etc. are just a smoke screen. What about listening to your cohorts on Marriage Builders who told you all that?!???!?? I listened, and thus it was not something that I would do differently. At the time, I just did not agree. FWIW, I do not feel like if I had done something different, I would have had a better or more streamlined "recovery." I would have been spared some of the anguish that often accompanies hope, but it would have had no real effect on the outcome. Said another way, some of us, if we choose to attempt recovery, are going to endure false recoveries, no matter what we do.
Me 43 BH MT 43 WW Married 20 years, No Kids, 2 Difficult Cats D-day July, 2005 4.5 False Recoveries Me - recovered The M - recovered
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Slight TJ - rprynne - Is your wife in the reserves?
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Slight TJ - rprynne - Is your wife in the reserves? Nope.
Me 43 BH MT 43 WW Married 20 years, No Kids, 2 Difficult Cats D-day July, 2005 4.5 False Recoveries Me - recovered The M - recovered
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OK. I saw a FWW posting with the same name on another site.
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I hope that through my mistakes and pain, others could avoid some. However, it may be like with your kids, one has to experience things in order to see the light...
1. WHAT did you do that you wish you'd done differently? Kicked him out the first day, not allow fence sitting, not beg and cry, hmmm, not listen to what I wanted to hear but to really listen to what was being said...I saw some terrible divorces and didn't want that for my sons, what I did to avoid divorce was worse on me...I should have trusted that they would be okay as I would be there to help them vs. caught up in my pain.
I wish I had not stayed married at all costs because the costs financially, emotionally and the additional pain I caused to my kids for not protecting them wasn't worth it. I think that often the BS can be selfish too and hide under the umbrella that they don't want to D due to the kids where it is really the fear and insecurity keeping them there, not the kids (at least not entirely).
2. WHAT clues did you miss (or ignore) that your WS was not ready for recovery? Mostly it was his attitude didn't change, he acted like he was doing me a favor. Wasn't open and honest, didn't read anything and went grudgingly to counseling. Fought/argued about A details, didn't want to discuss as he didn't "remember". I sensed the insincerity deep down, didn't want to face it.
3. WHAT lessons did you learn that you'd like to pay forward to others, so that they might avoid a FR?
Like others said, trust your gut, I sensed something wasn't right after d-day #2 and snooped and snooped, kept looking...it took me three years to find it. The pain and shame of my own stupidity is hard to bear, my biggest problem is forgiving myself.
In my sitch I was/am the breadwinner and supported WH's dream of owning his own business. The business tanked due to the economy, we are in major debt. Before we closed the biz, I workd FT+, did the books for WH, cleaned the store, grocery shopped, paid the bills, cleaned the house/laundry. WH was plotting how to get in touch with OW. I can't come up with the words of how I felt last year after finding out...shame, pain anger, beating myself up, wouldn't wish it on anyone.
Have boundaries, look at the attitude, trust yourself, and verify with every manner you have available. Avoid inflicting pain on yourself by being grateful he/she is there and not asking for the respect and a good relationship that you deserve.
Me-49, WH-51 Married 02/1983 yrs, Sons - 27, 26, 20 1st PA - 1985, 1st known EA - 1992/1993 2nd PA - 06/02 to 11/04 1st D-day - 09/03, D-day 2 - 10/04 D-day 3 05/08 NC e-mail - 11/04- it wasn't real
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Probably the most important thing I learned from false recovery was that it isn't simply actions that define waywardness. Not actively engaged in an active affair is not the same thing as being a FORMER wayward spouse. Just like an alcoholic who has not had a drink in 6 months does not indicate that they are "recovered."
Real recovery requires true repentance and true repentance is not merely a change in actions but a change in thinking that results in a change in action.
It is all too possible to have NC, change your actions and interactions and still be wayward in thinking. This can lead to a restarting of the affair or another new one with no real warning.
Mark Mark, you have expressed very well something that I have established in my own mind. I have realised for some time that there is a difference between a wayward who is no longer in the affair and a former wayward. The problem is that I don't know how a BS can ever really know the difference, or at least not after a FR. My H has said many times that the affair is over, and has promised me that what happened will never happen again. And while he is not exactly contrite and horrified about what he has done, or disgusted at what he became, he is passionate and loving and caring to me, perhaps more than ever before. He does seem to be very sorry that he hurt me. The problem for me is that I know how easily and convincingly he can lie, and so I have learned not to try and judge what his attitude or demeanour mean, or to rely on my instincts. My instincts have been as wrong as they could have been with regard to H's honesty in the past. During FR, I watched him lie when I knew about some contact or other and when I confronted him, if I hadn't known already about the contact I would never have known he was lying. He never looked guilty while he lied, he never avoided my eyes, he never blushed or stumbled over his words or did anything else suspicious. He looked me in the eye and told me that he hadn't seen OW and but for the evidence contained on his phone I could not tell that he was lying. During FR our sex lives improved; I suspect that he was highly turned on by my willingness to compete with OW and I was probably trying to bond with him to break the bond that he had with her. And so now I cannot look at how passionate our sex life is; it was more passionate than ever before during FR. His desire to keep the marriage going - as well as the affair - at times when it seemed most likely to end, made him attentive, kinder, more passionate and, it seemed, just more loving to me than ever before, in and out of bed. That was partly why it came as such a shock to find out about the final 9 months of FR. My mental anxiety and fragility during those 9 months came from the fact that he still travelled in his job and he still went to work everyday and was at liberty to talk privately to her on the business phone from his (private, solo) office. It came from the fact that about 4 times I found her number in his dialled calls on the mobile. It did not come from his treatment of me. The dialled calls are obvious clues to me now, but at that time I thought I could not divorce him over the record of dialled calls. I could not break up my children's home over that. And so, because I have learned not to try and judge H's attitude or demeanour, I go forward on the basis of the provable changes in his actions. He has given up the travelling job, and since I contacted OWH, she has given up her job abroad and moved back into the marital home. She is not free to come to London any more. However, I feel that I can never be sure of complete NC; they can always use public phones and internet cafes at any time to contact each other. And so, I have ended up with what you describe; at best, a husband who is no longer in the affair but not one that I can call a FWH. I am not unhappy with that limbo, but I would prefer to have the security and commitment that other BSs here feel. I just don't know how to get it, or what gives them their certainty. I was somewhat reassured when the affair descended into acrimony in 2007, after OW heard from her H what my H had been saying about wanting rid of her for months. Her love turned to hate within days, and she told him "you're not dumping me; I'm dumping you!" However, I am aware how easily their mutual feelings of anger could soften and that they could reach out to each other again. If that happens, I don't know how I would be able to tell. I could not tell at all that the affair was continuing during the first year of FR. I don't see myself as necessarily in real recovery now. I might be, and if I am, time will tell. If I'm not, again time will tell. I firmly believe that if he and OW are is some kind of contact will find out one day, and that if and when I do, I am incapable of being hurt as I once was. That is because I don't believe in him any more. I don't really know how any BS who has suffered repeated betrayal can fully believe in their spouse ever again. I envy those that do, but I don't know how to achieve this myself.
BW Married 1989 His PA 2003-2006 2 kids.
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beginagain, I'm very sorry to hear your story. Are you still with your H?
BW Married 1989 His PA 2003-2006 2 kids.
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Wow -- this is a great thread. Lots of beneficial information. And I can relate to most of what everyone is contributing as I've "been there, done that" multiple times this past year.
Red Flags: 1. Trust your kids' instincts. I wanted to believe that each of WH's returns were real, as did my DDs. But DS17 knew all along that WH wasn't sincere. He could tell that Dad wasn't the same old Dad.
2. Beware if WH avoids family events. My WH either did not attend (I'm "not ready") or drove his own car so he could leave early.
3. Beware of WH making promises -- even the ones he makes in writing. Just because promises are in writing or spoken in front of a priest/parent/counselor/kids doesn't make it less likely he'll break them. I tried that.
4. WH underestimating how hard recovery would be. He repeated "It's not that hard. I never really tried before" to convince me to let him come home the last time. I've learned: IT IS THAT HARD AND TRYING IS NOT COMMITING.
5. Each False Recovery is worse than the previous one. I should have been more forceful during FR #1 to prevent the rest. And the last FR was pretty much a joke. I did figure that he just wanted to be home for the holidays to "save face" with the kids AND to get his name included on our family Christmas card.
6. Beware if it's all about him and his pain and his depression and withdrawl. Too much space is not a good thing. And he should have been breaking his back to make it up to me. Instead I got ignored.
7. Don't negotiate. Big lesson -- Do not negotiate with terrorists. Do not negotiate with waywards.
If he requires negotiating, he's not ready. You shouldn't have to convince him to come back. He should want it badly.
8. Don't be afraid to bring in others to make sure WH is ready to come back. Use SH or family members or friends. Not that it will happen again (since he's filed for D), but should he ever want to return, I'd convene a giant meeting and let them drill him on motives and let THEM vote as to whether he can rejoin the tribe -- er -- family or be voted off the island.
M 25 yrs, 3 teens Dday 12/07 5ish False Recoveries (all in 2008) 12/08 WH moves in w/OW, her kids Plan B/D/FU -- depending on the day He files 1/09; D final 12/2012 "I'm moving on"
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Just to let you all know ... I am finding this thread incredibly helpful. Lots of what is being said is helping me to confirm that I'm NOT in FR. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Just caught up on this thread. I'm not feeling so 'spiffy' anymore about R. But that's okay. Time will tell if I will be added to the 'idiot' list. This is still the most helpful thread. Everyone's insights are invaluable to those of us reading that are in early in R. P.S. Thank you Ace
M'd 22 years BW-me D-Day 08/08 LTA
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Just to let you all know ... I am finding this thread incredibly helpful. Lots of what is being said is helping me to confirm that I'm NOT in FR. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Just caught up on this thread. I'm not feeling so 'spiffy' anymore about R. What have you read that challenges you the most, Vittoria?But that's okay. Why is it OK to become uneasy when you were feeling confident earlier?Time will tell if I will be added to the 'idiot' list. From my experience, if I had access to the wealth of knowledge available on these forums, I could have avoided being the idiot.
For now, I'm choosing to use what I've learned to help others hopefully avoid having to experience becoming an idiot.
What can you do to avoid it, based on what you've learned?This is still the most helpful thread. Everyone's insights are invaluable to those of us reading that are in early in R. You are doing so well, V, and you're right, it is early. That's the best time to learn. ETA It's actually better to learn BEFORE disaster strikes so you can avoid it, but after it happens, it's best to learn earlier rather than later like PM and me and others! (If you're a lurker, learn from Vittoria and start posting.)
You can learn by lurking but you've taken the initiative to jump in with both feel and you've helped many others even if you're relatively new. Keep going and you won't become an idiot, Vittoria. Just don't ever let your guard down. P.S. Thank you Ace
Last edited by _Ace_; 02/26/09 09:15 AM. Reason: additional thought
FWH/BW (me)57+ M:36+ yr. 4 D-Days: Jun-Nov 06 E/PA~OW#2 (OW#1 2000)
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Acey, I appreciate your concern so much. It's all cool. Like you said 'keep your guard up'. I think I just let mine down a bit. And it's good to have reminders, which is what this thread is doing. Sorry for the t/j.
M'd 22 years BW-me D-Day 08/08 LTA
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Probably the most important thing I learned from false recovery was that it isn't simply actions that define waywardness. Not actively engaged in an active affair is not the same thing as being a FORMER wayward spouse. Just like an alcoholic who has not had a drink in 6 months does not indicate that they are "recovered."
Real recovery requires true repentance and true repentance is not merely a change in actions but a change in thinking that results in a change in action.
It is all too possible to have NC, change your actions and interactions and still be wayward in thinking. I'm quoting this again because this is VERY true. I've learned this the hard way and continue to learn it.
Last edited by MarriedForever; 02/26/09 10:37 AM. Reason: To highlight MY emphasis
Me,BW - 42; FWH-46 4 kids D-Day #s1 and 2~May 2006 D-Day #3~Feb.27, 2007 (we'd been in a FR) Plan B~ March 3 ~ April 6, 2007 In Recovery and things are improving every day. MB rocks.
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Big lesson -- Do not negotiate with terrorists. Do not negotiate with waywards.
If he requires negotiating, he's not ready. THIS IS ALSO VERY IMPORTANT. After the FR I have never negotiated recovery and I don't plan on starting. I'VE done all of the reading, learning, understanding and with the help of MB and everyone here, I know pretty d*mn well what it takes to recover. If a FWS does the same kind of learning that most BS's do, there wouldn't be a NEED for negotiating.
Me,BW - 42; FWH-46 4 kids D-Day #s1 and 2~May 2006 D-Day #3~Feb.27, 2007 (we'd been in a FR) Plan B~ March 3 ~ April 6, 2007 In Recovery and things are improving every day. MB rocks.
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If a FWS does the same kind of learning that most BS's do, there wouldn't be a NEED for negotiating. a big A M E N
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