Stella and Ears

I wrote out a couple of cards. My H thought it was ridiculous but it opened up the conversation nicely. I said calmly but firmly that we have to do the work if we are to turn the marriage around. I want to know what he needs and he needs to know what I need so that we can meet each others needs. He told me that he has thought a lot lately about what it would be like to be with someone else. I said he has that choice. He said that he would write down what he needs from me and I should do the same for him.

I said our marriage was a bond that was strong but empty and he agreed wholeheartedly.

So I'm going to work on my needs list tonight and he says he will. At least then we have something to work toward.

Great job! The cards were merely one creative way of breaking in to a solution. Keep them though, it may help in the future.

You will find out if he is willing to work on the marriage or not. You need to know this!

NOwis,

I find it interesting that you want to talk about needs with your H when you will not even kiss him or

You say :



Don't you get it??? Why would he bother to discuss needs with you, when in fact you simply WILL NOT MEET HIS NEEDS. You won't tolerate being in contact with him. You do things "the way I have pretty much always done." What is the purpose of these discussions?

YOu and Stella seem to think he is a conflict avoider. Perhaps he is, but it seems unless he actually raped you, his needs will NOT be met. You were willing to meet OM's needs, but not your H's, and then you wonder why he is reluctant to discuss all of this YET AGAIN.

I am wondering what you are really thinking. YOu say he is the right man, but you treat him like a leper. You say you want this marriage, but all you do is talk and gripe because he doesn't meet your needs, as if somehow that will lead to you meeting his. Yet the data to date is very very clear. YOu will NOT MEET HIS MOST BASIC NEEDS... you won't even kiss the man.

Quit blaming him for YOUR issues. Quit analyzing his behavior and have a go at your own. You are the person you can change, and if you could actually give the man a hug and a kiss, who knows you might find you have a man that will respond and change as well.

Quit beating up on him because you are failing.

I hope something I have said gets through to you.

God Bless,

JL

What's up with that?

My H and I hug all the time. We don't full on kiss but we are affectionate. We have sex too! What I am saying is that he does not make the effort to spend time with me. He disappears on me when I need support emotionally (he's used to me just getting on with it). He wants me to not be self-sufficient and dependent on him - so I lean on him and he doesn't really want to hear it etc, etc. Or he caves and says I don't know what to do. It seems like a one way street. I can put out and put out but he does not want sex if it is just an 'effort', if I have to 'fake it'. He's not stupid - he can tell the difference. Or is it that sex solves everything?! It's difficult to keep going when I am not getting much back myself. So is he just to do nothing? Am I not to ask? Just have sex with the guy and it solves everything right?

Nowis,

Wouldn't it be simple if having sex with him "solved everything"? That is not what I am saying. I am saying discussing needs over and over is NOT going to solve YOUR issues. You seem to think that your H can solve your issues if he meets your needs. Discussing needs is not leaning on him, you know that.

Let me review this just a bit. You came here claiming he was not man enough for you, like your OM was. You then say you have a hard time being intimate with him. In the very last post I made you stated you could NOT meet his needs, nor even kiss him. Now you say you do have SF.

Nowis, you have made some good changes, but you have not gotten the idea that life is a TEAM sport. It is not about LEANING on someone, or about being independent. It is about being a team with common goals, a willingness to share your efforts, your life, your love for one another. It is about becoming ONE as the Bible says.

You think you are being ignored. I am thinking he is defending himself. Perhaps incorrectly, and surely ineffectively, but never the less defending. Why does he need to defend himself? What is it that he fears? Why doesn't he reach out more and ignore less? You need to figure this out, you need to address it. You want communications, excellent. But, what if his idea of communications is not about 'what he has to do' in order for you to be happy with him? What if communications is about you both doing something that makes you both happy? What if communications is you showing you love and respect him? What if your communications is about his love and respect for you? What if your communications is about what you two would like to do that you both enjoy?

You need to look him in the eyes and say "I need a teammate. Further, I need you to help me be a good teammate. Let's make a plan to do that."

You two need to plan a future that you both want and enjoy.
Not spend even more time discussing how he has "failed" to meet your needs. He knows he failed. Your affair gave him that message loud and clear.

God Bless,

JL

JL
I was sharing how I feel sometimes - how the relationship breaks down/it's low points ......

So this is not about finding out what we both need? I thought it was about meeting each other needs therefore showing love and respect? "What if your communications..... etc" Are we talking about a hobby/time together.. huh? Or just not talking about how we feel, what we need or the past - just talk about fun and the future?

I do need that. I ask him what can we do to make things better, what he needs. He says he doesn't know. So, I guess he's defending himself.

So asking him what he needs and sharing what I need is talking about failures.... mm? wow. So what do I do? Just carry on from here in now talking about how great things could be??

Nowis,

Nice try on intentionally misconstruing what I said to defend yourself but it won't fly.

If you are talking about feelings you are NOT talking about needs. What you feel is a product of internal processing and interpretation of events, neither of which your H can address or change. That is why when someone promises on the alter to love their mate for their life, it is not about "feeling in love" it is the action of doing loving things. Feelings change, often daily, actions and plans, and yes NEEDS typically are fairly constant.

I am reminded of the old saying about children and adults.
You dismiss my comments about communications, but let me point from your own words that your efforts toward communications and obtaining information you "feel" you need from your H have not been very successful. You need a different approach in my mind and it starts with how you see things and approach things.

I am rattling your cage because I sense you are in a continous rut about this and need to quit digging the hole deeper that you are in. IN short, "put down the shovel", and really think about this.

Men say "I don't know" for a simple reason. They "don't know" the answer you want to hear. They do know how they want things and what they would do IF they did not have to consider your expectations. He has been trained by you to consider your expectations before answering. He doesn't know the answer you want.

Most of us guys have been set up more than once by our significant others asking for our "honest" opinion about something only to get hammered when we give it. Your H is very very defensive right now, and you need to figure out how to get "under the radar" and have him not raise his defenses.

Perhaps the "discussions" should be in emails, or written in letters, rather than face to face real time. I don't know, but I do know you need to change your approach to both your own thinking and to this marriage.

I suspect he is fully aware that you don't want to even kiss him. I suspect he is fully aware that whatever SF you two have it is not something you seem to want from him. I suspect he is fully aware that you clearly do not desire him. I suspect your actions have made it very clear, that in your eyes he is a failure as a husband. Hence, you get defensiveness and an unwillingness to open up.

Now some of these things are his problems to deal with, but given your desire to address needs and have needs met, you need to be cognizant of these things and address them in a way that he becomes less defensive and more receptive.

Complaining about him does not accomplish these things and it is a form of self-reinforcement that you deep down feel he is a failure and that your actions are not part of the problem.

If you go back and reread all of your posts on this thread I would suspect that most of the comments about your H are in fact negative. Yet, you say he is the "right guy" for you. Do you see why I am a bit confused?

Please think about all of this.

God Bless,

JL

Jl

Okay, I guess I need to look at myself, my approach and thinking.

Well JL, I sent copy of my last few posts and yours to my H. Here are his responses:

1st one

I see his point and we should take it into account.....however, meeting each others needs IS about showing each other love and respect isn't it? So I think we are on the right track in that way. I do not feel like you are giving me a list of things I got wrong. I feel more like it's an agreement on how we both help each other feel more valued and appreciated.
My lack of stating my needs has left things to drift on my side and same for you...well I think we both need to say what we need and try to give it to each other and share ourselves as he says.....probably we have not done enough sharing in both directions.
....and yes - I think we do need to plan some stuff together as well, as he says....
I like the teammate sentence and we should both aim to be that for each other

2nd one

I do not know your internal thoughts or dialogue with yourself but I do sometimes feel like there are (or have been) a number of things you are critical of about me or feel are missing from the relationship (due to me not being a certain way, not being what you expected, not living up to your expectations etc).....your comment on the plane when I was putting stuff in the overhead locker and asked the guy to move his stuff and you said "that is more of what I want" is one little example and perhaps you are in a bit of a rut in your thinking and that makes it more difficult to get to a point of being happy with the relationship as a result. Hence the guy's comment about most of your postings being negative even though you say I'm the right one for you - if that's true it is a kind of mixed message....but I cannot say for sure as I'm not in your head....and that said I am not denying that I have to change and adjust either - I do

Yes I do feel like I have failed you in some ways and what he says about me considering your expectations before replying has some truth....it's good to hear its most men and not just me ! HOWEVER, I do not feel I am that defensive right now....I feel more like I have not said what I want and have tried to meet your needs in whatever way I thought I should over the years and its time to change things...and saying what I want and giving you a list is one way to start I guess. We also have to be careful not to assume the other person should think and feel as we do and that if they are not acting as we expect or need, that something is therefore wrong.

Hope that helps......overall I think we have to start somewhere to do something concrete and the "needs list" is a place to start.

Nowis,

What do you make of his comments? Are you encouraged or discouraged? Do you see a "way forward" or not? Do you see hope or feel despair? Finally, do you understand the teammate concept?

If you have questions about the teammate concept, ask your H and ask here. You will get a lot of feedback of that I am sure.

But, mainly I would like to know your take on your H's responses to our posts back and forth.

God Bless,

JL

Hello Nowis and JL

I have not been on MB for a while and was pleased to see your post is still active. I trust things went well for you in England.

I have been spending the last months in training sessions so I have been quite busy but I am wondering if some of the things I have been covering in class may help you Nowis.

We have been looking at trying to deal with root issues that impair a person in their life. From a long time ago you have mentioned your issue with your father. I am wondering if this is a root issue for you that needs to be dealt with. The reason I ask is I had an absentee father, he was an honourable man but he was absent, I went through a process of forgiveness regarding the “wound” and the scars I developed because I did not have a father to guide me from being a boy to manhood. I have learned as a father I have a responsibility to treat my children with a fathers heart which is like God the fathers heart.

I have learned the heart of our Heavenly Father embodies these characteristics and I as a father am to show this to my children:
1)Compassion
2)Grace
3)Slow to Anger
4)Mercy
5)Truth
6)Covenant Faithfulness
7)Forgiving

I thought my relationship with my Father had been dealt with, however I still attended a prayer counseling session. It was incredibly freeing. I had no idea I had not really dealt with the issues regarding my father. As a result I am now working on clearing up any issues with my own children, and I am sure there will be issues I will have to deal with. Even the best intentioned parent will not be perfect and there will be issues that need dealing with.

I have felt for a long time that you have been struggling with a fathers wound, and it has never been healed. I also am wondering if the fathers wound is the screen in which you filter the next most significant male in your life through, (your husband) and until the wound is dealt with the issues you experience will continue in a cycle. JL has referred many times about your perception and I think he is right. I am wondering if you can deal with the root issue your perception will change.

I have learned when we are wounded we need to deal with the restoration not only in our minds but also in our hearts and our spirits. Now believe me I have always been a bit cynical about things. If things were not rationale or could be explained by intellectual discussion I pretty well discounted them. In the last 4 weeks my view has been transformed. Our hearts and our spirits are every bit as important as our minds in the healing process. I am now of a mind that a well trained pastor or counselor who can lead a person through healing prayer will have tremendous impact. In my case I have never felt so free. The process of prayer counseling I underwent lifted an incredible burden from me.

I can now say with confidence “When Jesus sets you free you will be free indeed”.

It is actually something that I am still puzzling over. How this works I cannot explain. I am certainly glad it works, but I cannot explain to you how it works. I guess that is one of the mysteries of faith. Prayer does work. There is some information available on how to be guided through the prayer process, I am just not sure how to get the information to you.

I am sure there are issues you and your husband need to resolve. But in my humble opinion I think your relationship would be better served if you pursued getting to the root of your issues.

So glad to see my old friends back on line. May God Bless you and your family.

JL

Now, where were we?

I am encouraged by my H's comments. We have, since then, sat down and exchanged our 'list' of needs. We managed to share very openly and honestly about them. It was very loving and very kind. We both wanted the best for each other too. We were able to be fairly specific but agreed to always be honest (radical honesty) and open if we were having difficulty meeting them, for whatever reason.

I think I understand the teammate concept. My impression is that we work together. Not one working for the other but together. Pulling together and taking a 50/50 share in the relationship and workload and supporting each other. Is there more to it?

My H sometimes seems like someone "in waiting'. If you understand what I mean. When we talk - it's almost as if he's been waiting for me to just see how much he still loves me and is there for me. His inactivity, at times, is him just waiting for me to be loved by him. That's struck me lately.

He says of me also that I need to get on a grieve. I am not grieving and for my past with FOO and the hurts I have caused him and myself over the last few years. I am like a sponge soaking up all the dirty water and never squeezing it out. He says he doesn't stand a chance against that.

Thinking about this over the last week or so, I realize that I can never be free in myself or with him or friends if I don't get clean. It isn't a case of 'letting stuff go' or 'forgetting about it' - it's facing it, acknowledging it, and then saying it doesn't belong to me anymore, it isn't me - it's what happened to me.

So, taking each day at a time right now.

Thanks BCB

Nice to hear from you. My brother's funeral went very well and the time spent with the family went fine. My Dad was as distant and unconnected as I remember. For the first time I felt I didn't want to be close to him. I didn't want to work at a relationship with him. Also that if he wasn't interested there really was no point in asking. I didn't want to upset him or anyone else. They all move in their 'groove'. What was the point of upsetting it.

So I came away feeling life is what it is. I viewed my brother's body and felt he was at peace now. That's good, no more struggle.

Anyway, I am facing myself and pushing at those painful areas. I guess it's the only way to do it. As you can see from what I wrote to JL, I realize there's a lot of crappy stuff stagnating in my soul and I need to clean out. My H is by my side and for that I'm always grateful. Restoration, as you say. All those characteristics that you mention are ones that we should use on ourself and with others.

Yes, it is a mystery to me.

So your take on me is pretty accurate.

I would love to get my hands on the info that you mention. I can always give you our family email and perhaps let you have my address that way?

Thanks for your words - always so timely.

Nowis,

Good to hear from you. Your post is very encouraging. I think you are starting to see the things you need to do. You said in response to my teammate question.
My answer yes there is more to it. In my mind a lot more. I would encourage you to take my response to you on this topic to your H and discuss it with him and see what he thinks.

In my mind, a teammate is someone that is bonded with you in a common goal. A teammate is someone that knows that they may have to do the "dirty" work, while not getting the glory. Think for example an offensive lineman in football (American football) and the quarterback. The quarterback often gets the glory, he has stats, he has visibility. An offensive lineman in American football is truly a unique position. There are no stats for an O-lineman, none. it is the only position is sports like it. The only time you will actually hear an Offensive linemen's name mentioned is if he incurs a penalty. Yet, the very survival of the quarterback depends on the offensive line.

A teammate is someone that will protect you and defend you at all costs.

A teammate does not expect equality but rather balance, respect, acknowledgement by his team if no one else.

A teammate will speak up and no allow a fellow teammate to make a bad mistake.

A teammate will not harp on a fellow teammates past mistakes but encourage him to become better/play better/ act better.

A teammate does not "blame" another teammate for the failure of the team but shares the blame no matter the situation.

A teammate is often the "head cheerleader" of his teammate, encouraging, supporting, and leading him to acheive his potential.

I can go on, but teammates is far more than a 50/50 split of things. They are people united in a common goal, willing and able to backup, support, encourage and even sacrifice for the better of the team and its goals.

Nowis, I see marriage as the ultimate team sport.

IN fact, I tell people I live by three "rules"

1. Life is a team sport.
2. There are no experts in unsolved problems.
3. Credit is not a conserved quanty, be generous in giving credit to other people.

I have one final corrolary that I often state here.

No one leads their life like I would lead it for them.

You are doing well Nowis. It seems to me you and your H are making progress.

God Bless,

JL

PS: It seems to me your H does know about being a good teammate, but show him my thoughts and see what he thinks.

JL

You put a LOT more meat on the bones for me with regard to the teammate concept. These, in particular, stood out to me.


I feel that for the first time we are encouraging each other to be our best (minus the criticism and pointing out each others faults as a place to start).

I will send your latest post to him now and let you know his responses.

Thank you so much.

Nowis,

I look forward to hearing what he thinks. May I suggest that you go find and read Harley's four rules for a good marriage. They are here in an article of his on this site. I think as you read them and consider what a good teammate is, you will start to see a synergism between Harley's concepts and what I listed as attributes of a good teammate.

God Bless,

JL

Sorry I just dropped off the face.

Never did get a further response back from my H on the teammate stuff.

I have been attending a support group for sufferers of anxiety and depression. My H suggested I go. We have listened to some interesting topics and shared how to cope on a day by day, hour by hour basis when suffering from depression. We watched a video all about the brain from renowned doctor and founder of the Amen Clinic for Behavioral Medicine, Daniel G Amen. Am now reading the book Change your Brain, Change your Life - The breakthrough program for conquering anxiety, depression, obsessiveness, anger and impulsiveness. So, I think I'm about covered....LOL.

Through various discussions/sharing a group leader said that I had become numb. That through being let down by my father I was angry and now numb. This was as a result of me saying that I did not find any real comfort in 'God'. She said that I had not heart connection with God - it was always in my head at an intellectual level. Yes, makes sense.

Anyway, things are going okay with my H. We've been spending what time we have together talking and doing recreational things but it rarely translates to the bedroom. I know that it is my fault. I'm working on it. I mostly have to switch on because I do get numb and check out.

My affair has been haunting me too. I keep asking why I would strip, have sex with a guy I barely know and certainly don't connect with emotionally and be reluctant/frightened/hesitant to make love to my H. I know the latter requires so much more - intimacy, love and giving.

So, I am chugging along and working on not running away from those questions. Honesty. Not blaming him. Hoping I get it soon as I'm scared he'll leave me too.

That's where I'm at.

Tell your husband you want him to be your sex slave for one week. Every night, make him do what you want him to do to please you in bed. Tie you up, use sex toys on you, whatever. Ask to be an agressive ****edit**** (just like what you loved in the other man you tore off your clothes for)

Make your husband be as mean and selfish as that other man. In the bedroom. And maybe even outside the bedroom to turn you on.

To you, that is what MANLINESS is, agressive, strong, mean, selfish, uncaring, using you sexually for his own amusement, full of lust, almost violent!

You love this type of man. Your husband is a "meek mild milktoast" compared to your wild and MANLY, other lover.

Everything you were attracted to in your other lover, make your husband do it. For example if you liked how your other loverman tore off your clothing and tossed you around in the bed in different lovemaking positions, ask your husband to strong arm you that way in bed also. If you loved the way your other man kissed you, hard and agressively, tell your husband to kiss you that way also. If your other man was unwashed and smelled like a "dirty man" and you loved it, ask your husband to take you in bed, dirty and unwashed.

If your other lover smoked, ask your husband to smoke also. If your other man drank whiskey before having sex with you, ask your husband to put down some shots of whiskey before dragging you to bed! If your other man was pushy and demanded you give oral sex to him, ask your husband to demand oral sex from you also. If your other loverman wore dirty jeans and t-shirt, ask your husband to wear dirty jeans and t-shirt too.

If your lover wore a tie, ask your husband to wear a tie also. If your other lover spoke in a deep strong voice and ordered you to do sex acts on him, tell your husband to push you down on the bed and demand sex acts from you in a deep low voice!

Figure out what turned you on so much that you threw all your clothes off for your other lover again and again and again and again and again, eagerly and happily! What was it!!!! It was probably MANY things!

That other lover of yours had what your husband does not have. A huge wild animallike, lusty sex appeal and manliness coming out of every pore. And a perfect agressive lovemaking technique that drove you simply WILD!!!!!!

Your husband in comparison is a poindexter. Or a harvey milktoast. He is slow and weak in bed. He worries about YOUR pleasure. he is not aggressive or bold. He does not ask you for anything new. He is too respectful of you. And you hate that. You would rather he TAKE you powerfully in bed and DO you. But no. You can try and train your husband to be more manly and aggressive in bed before you finally dump him for that raw virle animal lust, crazy sex, wild, demanding lover you gave up.

Then, once you go back to that lover you went wild on in bed, or another one like him, then please let your husband go so he can meet another woman. A woman who is attracted to HIM and wants only HIM and wants to have sex every night with HIM!!!!!!

What's the point of this useless diatribe?

You wanted to know why you stripped off your clothing for a strange other lover. I am showing you why you did it.