Welcome to the
Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum

This is a community where people come in search of marriage related support, answers, or encouragement. Also, information about the Marriage Builders principles can be found in the books available for sale in the Marriage Builders® Bookstore.
If you would like to join our discussion forum, please read the Announcement Forum for instructions, rules, & guidelines.
The members of this community are peers and not professionals. Professional coaching is available by clicking on the link titled Coaching Center at the top of this page.
We trust that you will find the Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum to be a helpful resource for you. We look forward to your participation.
Once you have reviewed all the FAQ, tech support and announcement information, if you still have problems that are not addressed, please e-mail the administrators at mbrestored@gmail.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 6,108
B
Member
Offline
Member
B
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 6,108
Originally Posted By: Cherished
There are people who recognize the danger and stop, and there are people who decide not to stop. It is not one decision. It is a series of decisions, and that is why I think it is due to weak character or immorality.


I agree that it's a series of decisions and it ultimately does lead to a weakness of character, but I don't think my H was ALWAYS weak. At some point he made the decision to make his life all about him and not consider anyone else. If he had always been an ass or was still continuing to be an ass I would agree that it would be indicitive that he was always of weak character. If that were the case, I'd be divorced.


BW - me
exWH - serial cheater
2 awesome kids
Divorced 12/2011




Many a good man has failed because he had a wishbone where his backbone should have been.

We gain strength, and courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face... we must do that which we think we cannot.
--------Eleanor Roosevelt
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 3,474
C
Member
Offline
Member
C
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 3,474
From my perspective, based on things he has said to me, the devastating part of the affair to him was the change in his own view of himself. It was painful to have put himself up on a pedastal as far as moral character is concerned and then have to face that he had an affair. He seems to completely lack any sort of appreciation for the pain he has caused his wife, his parents, his children, or his wife's family.

Since the pain he feels has to do with his own view of himself, the reason why he wouldn't have another affair is to avoid experiencing that pain again.

Sure, he could justify another affair. He justified having an affair as the only way he could stay married, which was the moral thing to do. What would hold him back is the pain it would cause him.

As for me, he can't hurt me anymore. As the years pass, the kids get older, and it gets less important for me to be available to them. I also rebuild my career with part time work. We are headed for divorce. If we divorce today due to a second affair, I am in a much better position than when we had children ages 1 - 7. In another 8 years, the youngest will be able to drive, and the others will be out of the house. At that point, there will be no reason for us to share a home.

Cherished

Last edited by Cherished; 04/23/09 08:46 AM.
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,305
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,305
Originally Posted By: Cherished
From my perspective, based on things he has said to me, the devastating part of the affair to him was the change in his own view of himself. It was painful to have put himself up on a pedastal as far as moral character is concerned and then have to face that he had an affair. He seems to completely lack any sort of appreciation for the pain he has caused his wife, his parents, his children, or his wife's family.

Since the pain he feels has to do with his own view of himself, the reason why he wouldn't have another affair is to avoid experiencing that pain again.

Sure, he could justify another affair. He justified having an affair as the only way he could stay married, which was the moral thing to do. What would hold him back is the pain it would cause him.


Actually this sounds like my FWH as well, it is more about HIS pain than mine and his children.

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,305
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,305
Originally Posted By: Cherished
My husband called it "a convenient escape."

It was really hard dealing with a frazzled wife with colicky baby, a 1 year old, a 3 year old and a 6 year old. It was much more fun to go out to nice restaurants with a nice-looking woman who could pay rapt attention to you.

That 1 year old is now 8, and her First Communion is in two days. My parents are coming and seeing my husband for the first time since they learned that, in addition to having an affair, he broke my arm because I threatened to call this woman. That was the week before Christmas and 12 days after I had a hysterectomy, and I hid the broken arm for four months. He's not being very gracious about seeing them. It makes me realize how little he has changed. He once said that he's the same person I married. Yes, it's true. He is. The affair was not out of character. The affair revealed his character.

My parents are staying with my brother, who lives in my same town. Next Wednesday is a band concert for our 10 year old, and our 15 year old is attending Driver's Ed until 6 and then leaving for a band trip at 8. My husband wanted to attend the Band Concert, and I said I'd be willing to take care of the daughter who needs to be picked up from Driver's Ed and then taken back to the school at 8 for the Band concert. As he was leaving, I heard him mutter under my breath, "But I don't want to be stuck with your parents." When I asked him what he said, he said, "Nothing."

What a despicable jerk.

I do believe people can change. I believe he could change in the future. I married him with a different view of his character. My view has changed because of how he has treated me and continues to act.

We have managed to live together to care for our children, and I try to stay away from him as much as I can. For our wedding anniversary, I am giving him a book that portrays how two people can live together for years with completely different views of the marriage and one person can create an entire myth about their spouse to justify immoral behavior. It's called The Viper's Tangle. I doubt very much that he'll see himself in the main character, if he bothers to read the book at all. That is the extent of my communicating with him. We manage to coordinate rides, take care of finances, and care of the home, but I live alone in this marriage. He doesn't understand me at all and doesn't care about how I feel or what I do. Dr. Harley himself said to me, "The concept of care doesn't make sense to him."

It's all about him and how he is affected by what goes on around him. He has no empathy whatsoever for my mother in particular who had the shock of her life to find out that her son in law was beating up her daughter in front of her grandchildren. He has no realization how difficult it has been for her to accept that I am staying with this guy and to attend a Band Concert with him.

In the book The Viper's Tangle, the husband eventually came to an understanding of what he had done and he intended to reconcile with his wife, but she died before he actually did talk with her. The book is in the form of a journal by this husband. It is very moving. Where there's life, there's hope. In the meantime, I am following the words of John Paul II: "The man loves, and the woman loves in return." I wait. My husband has learned to not be physically abusive, and I doubt he'll have another affair because of the pain it caused him in facing his own moral deficiencies and not because of any pain his affair caused anyone else.

We have been married 16 years next week, and our lives are not intertwined at all. He has no clue. I am a stranger to him.

Cherished


While i will admit that i feel this way too because my H doesn't KNOW me very well. It is even worse for our children, he does not know their likes and dislikes.

However prior to his A i do feel that our lives were intertwined as we spent all of our time together if we were not at work. And i had been married almost 23 years before my H had his A

Joined: May 2000
Posts: 6,380
F
Member
Offline
Member
F
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 6,380
My husband has impeccable integrity in many areas of his life. Pre-affair, I believed he would always be faithful.

Now ten years post affair, I believe differently.

I know pride goes before a fall, but really, I can't imagine myself in an affair in any circumstance, before or after my husband's affairs. For one thing men hitting on me makes me want to puke It has since I have been married. I lose any respect for any man, especially married men, who exhibit any inappropriate attention to a married woman or a woman other than his wife. I am very monogamous. And I think for those of us that ARE pre-disposed to this level of faithfulness also have the hardest time SEEING potential problems and then recovering when the worst happens. Nothing hurts worse than when something is done to us, that we would never do.

But I have other weaknesses.

So when you are looking at a lifetime mate, it stands to reason that a bad set of circumstances, timing and needs not met can contribute to infidelity in people that are vulnerable to this weakness.

It is just a shame that we don't come with a warning label or a disclaimer before we mate for life.

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,305
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,305
Originally Posted By: FaithHopeLove
My husband has impeccable integrity in many areas of his life. Pre-affair, I believed he would always be faithful.

Now ten years post affair, I believe differently.

I know pride goes before a fall, but really, I can't imagine myself in an affair in any circumstance, before or after my husband's affairs. For one thing men hitting on me makes me want to puke It has since I have been married. I lose any respect for any man, especially married men, who exhibit any inappropriate attention to a married woman or a woman other than his wife. I am very monogamous. And I think for those of us that ARE pre-disposed to this level of faithfulness also have the hardest time SEEING potential problems and then recovering when the worst happens. Nothing hurts worse than when something is done to us, that we would never do.

But I have other weaknesses.

So when you are looking at a lifetime mate, it stands to reason that a bad set of circumstances, timing and needs not met can contribute to infidelity in people that are vulnerable to this weakness.

It is just a shame that we don't come with a warning label or a disclaimer before we mate for life.


Love it!!!

This person has the possibilty to cheat on you marry with caution rotflmao !

PS I agree with you about men hitting on women too it makes me want to puke as well!!

Last edited by Still_Crazy; 04/23/09 09:37 AM. Reason: added the PS
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 498
H
Member
Offline
Member
H
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 498
Originally Posted By: MacNut
According to the MB formula, these folks should have gone Wayward some time ago. Yet, as far as one can tell from their MB posts anyway, they remain faithful. Not only that, but from what I've seen on the forum, more often than not it's the spouses refusing to provide ENs who end up going Wayward! For example, the wife who refuses to have SF with her husband goes and has an affair where SF is frequent and freely given-to the OM.

One conclusion one could come to is that the spouses who remain faithful despite their top ENs NOT being met seem to have a stronger sense of integrity, a stronger moral fibre, than the ones who go wayward. And yet Dr. Harley is reputed to say that ANYONE could become a WS under the right circumstances...


ITA. Sorry to all FWSs, but this is like saying, someone who murders is not a murderer. In my world integrity and strong moral fibre are defined by keeping your commitment (or vows) and being honest. By that definition, a FWS has weak character by definition. Otherwise, why would the EPs have to be put in place? If any FWS told their BS, it is OK, I learned my lesson. I can go out alone with a member of the opposite sex, what would the BS say? Here even if the S is not a WS, we still say it is dangerous!


Me: 32 BS DDay: 9/14/08
Slowly coming to the realization that I
am one of those who can't get past it.
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 498
H
Member
Offline
Member
H
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 498
Originally Posted By: Cherished
Yes, we are all imperfect, but an affair is not usually the result of one weak moment. It is a pattern of behavior built over months of developing a friendship which becomes sexual. There are moments along the way when a person realizes this is pleasurable but is crossing the line into something it shouldn't be, and yet the person continues.

There are people who recognize the danger and stop, and there are people who decide not to stop. It is not one decision. It is a series of decisions, and that is why I think it is due to weak character or immorality.


Cherished helps make my point. The peole who stop are those with Strong character and strong moral fibre. Those who fall into the trap cannot be defined as having strong moral fibre except for "a weak moment". Again, he is not a murder except for 'one weak moment' when he killed his WS...


Me: 32 BS DDay: 9/14/08
Slowly coming to the realization that I
am one of those who can't get past it.
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 6,108
B
Member
Offline
Member
B
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 6,108
Originally Posted By: FaithHopeLove
I know pride goes before a fall, but really, I can't imagine myself in an affair in any circumstance, before or after my husband's affairs. For one thing men hitting on me makes me want to puke It has since I have been married. I lose any respect for any man, especially married men, who exhibit any inappropriate attention to a married woman or a woman other than his wife. I am very monogamous. And I think for those of us that ARE pre-disposed to this level of faithfulness also have the hardest time SEEING potential problems and then recovering when the worst happens. Nothing hurts worse than when something is done to us, that we would never do.


I agree with this.

Quote:
So when you are looking at a lifetime mate, it stands to reason that a bad set of circumstances, timing and needs not met can contribute to infidelity in people that are vulnerable to this weakness.


This makes sense. I do think my H is "weaker" than me in the areas that can make or break a relationship. I don't know if that weakness is due to biology, upbringing, values, character, or a combination of things. But it can't be argued that at some point that weakness kicked in and overrode all sense of decency and morals.

Quote:
It is just a shame that we don't come with a warning label or a disclaimer before we mate for life.


LOL although we might all be in that gaga love stage that we overlook the redflag until it's too late. People have had warning labels on cigarettes for decades and still claim ignorance. As a further deterent, can the label come with a twobyfour if we ignore the warning?


BW - me
exWH - serial cheater
2 awesome kids
Divorced 12/2011




Many a good man has failed because he had a wishbone where his backbone should have been.

We gain strength, and courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face... we must do that which we think we cannot.
--------Eleanor Roosevelt
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,249
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,249
I hate to admit it but I warned my husband about his actions for months before he started the affair. He believed that I was just jealous and unreasonable. I knew better. He believed that he was better than he actually was. I avoided all opportunities to be in tempting situations because I knew the dangers were real and potentially devastating. He sought out the tempting situations and enjoyed the risk and the ellicit admiration. It was an exhibit of selfishness and arrogance IMO. I am not perfect either. I do believe that if I put myself in a tempting situation and fostered an inappropriate friendship I would cheat also. I don't foster friendships with men. I don't go to bars alone to hang out. When an attractive man started working at my place of employment, I would avoid him. I go home and take care of my family. I am not better than my husband. I am just as weak. I am much more careful. I don't want to hurt my husband the way that he hurt me. I don't ever want to be that person. I like living an honest and open life that I can be proud of.


Over it.
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 498
H
Member
Offline
Member
H
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 498
Originally Posted By: stillstanding2
I hate to admit it but I warned my husband about his actions for months before he started the affair. He believed that I was just jealous and unreasonable. I knew better. He believed that he was better than he actually was. I avoided all opportunities to be in tempting situations because I knew the dangers were real and potentially devastating. He sought out the tempting situations and enjoyed the risk and the ellicit admiration. It was an exhibit of selfishness and arrogance IMO. I am not perfect either. I do believe that if I put myself in a tempting situation and fostered an inappropriate friendship I would cheat also. I don't foster friendships with men. I don't go to bars alone to hang out. When an attractive man started working at my place of employment, I would avoid him. I go home and take care of my family. I am not better than my husband. I am just as weak. I am much more careful. I don't want to hurt my husband the way that he hurt me. I don't ever want to be that person. I like living an honest and open life that I can be proud of.


We have the big winner. I think the #1 driving factor/problem is SELFISHNESS. In our me, me, me society, we are taught to do whatever makes us happy at the expense of those around us. I don't believe in that and was taught that you represent your Family first, your Job, your College, etc. If your actions will reflect badly upon that, then you better not take that action.


Me: 32 BS DDay: 9/14/08
Slowly coming to the realization that I
am one of those who can't get past it.
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 10,179
N
Neak Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
N
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 10,179
Cher, I can understand how you have come to your beliefs about WS's, and even FWS's.

Quote:
For me personally, the obsession with the OW had to do with not wanting to face that the man I married could have acted in such a way. Of course, there are women out there who will have an affair with a man with young children. There are lots of people out there who have no morals or such weakness of character as to have an affair.

The fact is you married a man who has no morals or weakness of character. When you are able to face that fact, you'll realize how totally irrelevant it is that he had an affair with this married coworker with young children vs. that married coworker with young children.

Quote:
A person of strong character would not set aside his value ssytem and moral fiber in order to justify the crime he was commiting.


You may very well have married a person of weak character. He may have always been that way.

Where our views differ is whether this represents ALL waywards and former waywards, or even a majority of them. I don't believe it does.

For most waywards, the A is a temporary aberration of what used to be a good character, and what can be a good character again.

In the case of your husband, I would still consider him a wayward. The absence of an active affair does not grant him the right to wear an "F'. He is still totally steeped in his wayward mentality, has not repented or made any amends, and thus is still just another WS.


Quote:
Sorry to all FWSs, but this is like saying, someone who murders is not a murderer. In my world integrity and strong moral fibre are defined by keeping your commitment (or vows) and being honest. By that definition, a FWS has weak character by definition.


H&S, this is a slap in the face of all good and repentant FWS's, and especially the ones here. They know they can never undo what they did, and yet find new strength and courage to rebuild themselves, often their marriages, and give generously of themselves to help others who are hurting.

Just as there is a difference between someone who murdered someone once, and a serial killer or assassin who murder people as a way of life, there is a big difference between your basic WS/FWS and a serial cheater, for example.

Of my many FWS friends here, they were all good people before, gave themselves over to evil for a while, and reclaimed their good character after learning some life-shattering lessons. I am proud to know them, and I am proud to be married to my husband - a good man of strong, Godly morals.

I'm saddened that you are unable to see the beauty and strength in the life of a repentant FWS.


A smooth sea never made a skilled mariner.
~ English proverb



Neak's Story
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 4,554
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 4,554
Originally Posted By: Cherished
From my perspective, based on things he has said to me, the devastating part of the affair to him was the change in his own view of himself. It was painful to have put himself up on a pedastal as far as moral character is concerned and then have to face that he had an affair.


That looks like something my FWW might have said.

Can you guess what happened?

Sure it took her several years before she cheated again, but I believe that was more a question of opportunity, rather than time, and all it took was someone to show more than a passing interest.


Originally Posted By: Cherished
At that point, there will be no reason for us to share a home.


Cherished, the time you're spending now in a love-less M can never be retrieved once it's gone. We are not equipped with a "reverse" option for life, to get back those years that we chose to spend in an unhappy situation. If you're waiting 8 years to D, that's 8 years that could have been spent finding and engaging in a much more fulfilling relationship, either with your H or with someone else.


ManInMotion
===========
(see "MiM's Story" for more details)
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,583
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,583
Originally Posted By: Neak
For most waywards, the A is a temporary aberration of what used to be a good character, and what can be a good character again.




This would describe my FWH. For 19 years, he was an affectionate, considerate, generous, hard-working, dedicated husband and father.

During the affair, he was unrecognizable to me.

When he ended his affair, the character I had known him to have for all those years returned and even grew.

I don't think a man can hide his real character for 20+ years.

It seems much more plausible that a man could be morally and spirtually lost for 9 months and then redeemed.


Happily married to HerPapaBear



Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,621
A
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,621
I hope no one thought I could resist this topic, this thread, for long.

I must have weak character. I’m posting.


What is character?

There is an old saying; character is what you do when you think no one is looking.

So, what is it when you do and don’t care who is looking? Or who you hurt? Who will eventually find out? What is it when you lie, cheat and steal and you know everyone is watching you do it? And not lie, cheat and steal from just anyone, but from a person, even your own children, you promised in public to protect?

Is it weak character? A hole in character? Morphed character? A lack of character?

Or is it, instead of a missing part of character, a something tangible and warped embedded in character?

The above, IMO, are all the same people. There is no difference except in degree.

To be able to intentionally suppress an otherwise outstanding code of ethics and morals is not intrinsically possible. Such ability means, it is evidence for, a problem with a persons ethics and morals and character to start with. It can be traced to one’s very wiring, as Dr H says.

It simply means they have been tested and found wanting.

And if you could go back in time and proctor their previous tests, tests when they thought no one was looking, they will have failed a lot in all kinds of smaller things.

IMO, it is well established the vast majority, 99.44%, of adulterers were the ones giving the least to the marriage all along. The upstanding, saintly, totally ethical and moral, give until it hurts spouse suddenly tripping and falling is a myth. And on the rare occasion such a one shows up here it is very easy to recognize them.

MB sort of reminds me of democracy. You know, the worst system except for all the others. But my main heartburn with it is its totally unwarranted assumption that adulterers are not who they really are. An assumption that claims they will not do it again when no one is watching, first because now the BS knows to watch them like a hawk all the time and for the rest of their lives; and second because the adulterer is now always satiated with ENs - exactly like a drug addict so stoned he can’t move. Ok, yeah. They won’t be able do it again if they can’t even move on their own. Sheesh.


I need to stop for a bit. Back later. (LOL, whether you want me back or not.)


"Never forget that your pain means nothing to a WS." ~Mulan

"An ethical man knows it is wrong to cheat on his wife. A moral man will not actually do it." ~ Ducky

WS: They are who they are.

When an eel lunges out
And it bites off your snout
Thats a moray ~DS
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,531
T
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,531
Originally Posted By: MacNut

So what to make of all that? Is it that some people's character is far stronger than others, or that the frustrated spouses I've mentioned above simply haven't really faced temptation yet?


I was one of the frustrated spouses that you described, and I had plenty of opportunity and temptation. Yet I didn't have an A. I like to think I have integrety and that my character is strong. I also think I rank at least a point or 2 ahead of any "strong character" who had a weak "moment".

In the beginning when I still wanted to pursue marital recovery, I wanted to think that WstbxH was better than that and that he simply had a weak "moment". In his case, it simply wasn't true. A lot of my grief in my personal recovery was specifically about this - that the strong, moral character I thought my "DH" was didn't actually exist. This is my case. I'm sure others' WS's are completely different.

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 498
H
Member
Offline
Member
H
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 498
Originally Posted By: Neak
H&S, this is a slap in the face of all good and repentant FWS's, and especially the ones here. They know they can never undo what they did, and yet find new strength and courage to rebuild themselves, often their marriages, and give generously of themselves to help others who are hurting.

Just as there is a difference between someone who murdered someone once, and a serial killer or assassin who murder people as a way of life, there is a big difference between your basic WS/FWS and a serial cheater, for example.

Of my many FWS friends here, they were all good people before, gave themselves over to evil for a while, and reclaimed their good character after learning some life-shattering lessons. I am proud to know them, and I am proud to be married to my husband - a good man of strong, Godly morals.


I don't disagree with anything you say except that 'good character'. But in my eyes, strong moral character = does not cheat. I agree all the FWS on here have taken tremendous steps, but I would argue that they will all agree that they have put EPs in place to protect an A from happening again. If we as humans all had strong character, we would not need these EPs. Maybe I should have said, very few people have strong character, and I will be the first to admit that we all make mistakes. But I think it is more helpful to us to realize that we do have 'weak character' as human beings and fall victim to temptation.


Me: 32 BS DDay: 9/14/08
Slowly coming to the realization that I
am one of those who can't get past it.
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 10,179
N
Neak Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
N
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 10,179
None of us have a strong character on our own anyway - all we have is the greater or lesser measure of grace that we allow into our hearts.

smile


A smooth sea never made a skilled mariner.
~ English proverb



Neak's Story
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 498
H
Member
Offline
Member
H
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 498
Originally Posted By: Aphelion
To be able to intentionally suppress an otherwise outstanding code of ethics and morals is not intrinsically possible. Such ability means, it is evidence for, a problem with a persons ethics and morals and character to start with. It can be traced to one’s very wiring, as Dr H says.


My thoughts exactly...from wiktionary:

A comparison of character and reputation: It would be well if character and reputation were used distinctively. In truth, character is what a person is; reputation is what he is supposed to be. Character is in himself, reputation is in the minds of others. Character is injured by temptations, and by wrongdoing; reputation by slanders, and libels. Character endures throughout defamation in every form, but perishes when there is a voluntary transgression; reputation may last through numerous transgressions, but be destroyed by a single, and even an unfounded, accusation or aspersion.


Me: 32 BS DDay: 9/14/08
Slowly coming to the realization that I
am one of those who can't get past it.
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,320
R
Member
Offline
Member
R
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,320
I don't think an A is an indication that the WS always had "weak" character. Possibly in some cases that is true, but I imagine in most cases, it is an indication that the WS has or had a different moral philosophy than what we wanted. Their moral philosophy was situational rather than virtue or duty based.


Me 43 BH
MT 43 WW
Married 20 years, No Kids, 2 Difficult Cats
D-day July, 2005
4.5 False Recoveries
Me - recovered
The M - recovered
Page 2 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

Moderated by  Fordude 

Link Copied to Clipboard
Forum Search
Who's Online Now
1 members (1 invisible), 33 guests, and 65 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Ella Paradis, Lethabo, Livn1dayAtaTime, widup, Reggg
71,683 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums67
Topics133,528
Posts2,322,563
Members71,682
Most Online3,185
Jan 27th, 2020
Building Marriages That Last A Lifetime
Copyright © 1995-2020, Marriage Builders®. All Rights Reserved.  |  Web Development by SunStar Media.
Site Navigation
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5