Chuck maybe nice notes now might seem insincere. I might have thought that singing her a song missing all the right notes in operatic tenor would hit the right tone.

Build to that point of sincerity. You know sincere expression now could be like a juvenile saying "I love you" too soon in the relationship.

Chuck I believe the fog has lifted enough. She created an emotional vacuum by pulling away. It sucked you in. And she likes the control she has. Personally, I would not want to be in a onesided relationship like that. I would seriously consider sitting down with her and saying, and without anger, just dispassionately:

" Ok, (Her name, no endearments, like honey or baby) You have won. We're done. I give up. You are free. Go to the Other man. Go anywhere you want you have succeeding in killing my love for you. I am no longer going to try to convince you to stay and its obvious by you giving me absolutely no affection, that you don't love me anymore. Our son will stay with me. He is old enough to decide for himself where and who he wants to be with. You can start looking for an apartment, they will be easy to find in this economy. I will contact a lawyer on monday and start separation papers in perperation for divorce. I am ready to move on and find a woman who values what I have to offer. Lets just try to keep things civil until you move.

CHUCK YOU HAVE TRIED EVERYTHING ELSE, HAVEN'T YOU? ITS TIME TO CREATE THE EMOTIONAL VACUUM ON YOUR SIDE. ONE OF TWO THINGS WILL HAPPEN. SHE WILL AQUIESS AND SAY YOU'RE RIGHT. OR SHE WILL COMPLETELY FREAK OUT. THERE IS NO TELLING WHAT SHE MIGHT DO. I THINK SHE WILL FREAK. I THINK SHE HAS NO WAY AT THIS POINT, WHILE YOU ARE ACTING LIKE THIS TO CURB HER PRIDE. YOU HAVE TO ROCK HER WORLD. SHE HAS TO BROUGHT TO A CRISIS. SHE HAS TO LITERALLY SEE AND IMAGINE LOOSING HER FAMILY AND THEIR LOVE. THIS IS WHAT I THINK. LOVING SOMEONE BACK INTO A MARRIAGE IS POSSIBLE WITH SOME SPOUSES. BUT WITH OTHERS THE ONLY THING THAT WILL GET THEM OFF THE FENCE IS CRISIS. PLEASE CONSIDER THIS.

Personally, I believe if you shock her like this, she will become a mascara and snot running mess. As far as you posts go, she has not broken down in contrition over cheating on you. The chance of losing everything may be what is needed. If not, what do you lose. A cheating wife who doesn't love you anyways. Not much of a loss there. This will rock her world. But you have to be ready for the potential that she says OK. But I don't think so.

One more thing Chuck. I want you to remember every time you felt she hurt you and you let it show to her. Don't you think its funny that she calls you afterwords? Sometime 2 or 3 times. Why is that? She does that. Because she is in fear that you will fall out of love with her and finally say "that's it, no more" Think about it. I think she has a real fear that you will stop wanting her love. If you show her that you have reached that limit. I think she will be terrified. Because I really believe she does love you.

Don't you understand if she loves you, then what she did to you was unforgivable in her eyes. So she has done everything she can to delay, actually coming out and saying "I love you, I love you more then I have ever loved you. I love you so much that when I think about what I did to you, It makes me feel so horrible that I have to keep convincing myself that I don't love you anymore. Because if I do love you more then anything then I am the worst person in the world, and I don't know if I can ever forgive myself for that."

Think hard on this. Could this be possible. Remember back when she loved you with her whole body & soul. You have shown her unconditional love. The dam is about to break my friend. There are cracks in it everywhere and she is doing all she can to hold back the flood. You have been chipping away at that dam for the last 5 months. This last blow will be like a wrecking ball. Don't expect it the minute you say it. Expect it when it sinks in that shes lost you.

She will say she'll go to counseling. Nope had your chance. She will say that she needs a little more time. Nope you've had enough time. She will say that her feelings are starting to change. Not fast enough. She has to have no way out other then complete and total surrender to her love for you. That is the only thing you will accept. Nothing less.

I think that you are right. That brings up questions of timing and others. We have a vacation scheduled to go back to Germany in July, for 3 weeks. It's where sheis from and where we met. I think that I should wait it out that long. Also, I am trying to refi the house right now, so I definately need to wait until after that. I know my wife though, and her first reaction will be anger. I think that the first question will be "why should I move out, why don't you" or "why will Kris stay with you". How do I respond to stuff like that. My biggest fear in all of this is, what if I am acting to soon. What if I say its over, an she was on hr way back. I d agree wih you, that if she says ok, what have I lost, but wht if we are close. I did tell the MC last night that I am tired of all of this, and that I will not do this for too much longer.

BTW, I wuld like to know what othrs think to Ouch's idea. Or does anyone have another idea?

Excellent. Definitely wait till after the vacation. You don't want her to have any support structure around her. It must be you and her. I sincerely believe that she simply cannot deal with her treacherous act. I think she has numbed herself. You have to have a major shock. In fact. I think that the minute you get home. WHILE HER BAGS ARE STILL PACKED. You just tell her. don't bother unpacking. We're through. I want you to leave. I am done trying to love you back into this marriage. I'm finished. Be exactly the same while you are over in Germany. Do nothing different. Then when she gets home. BOOM! You must plan your confrontation well. You must be able to get through saying it without any emotion showing. Practice.

She needs to be out and alone for a night or two. She has to feel the weight of her loss. After that, if she does what I believe. She will come back crying and begging. Then you can relent. But with caveats. First. if she shows you any disrespect, shes gone. If you feel that she is doing this for the sake of security and not for love. She's gone.

Bump

Chuck,
I'm sorry - in reading the post I'm confused. Are you still in Plan A? Are you moving to Plan B?

GG

Still in Plan A, and getting better at it. I feel as though I am letting go of the obsession of the whole affair. In the last few days as I feel myself letting go, I feel her coming closer again. She has kissed me twice in the last few days, and as we were shopping yesterday, she linked her arm into mine. I wonder if my pulling away is having ths effect.I still tell her I love you and do so much to show her I love her, but I am not all over her like I was.

I am very excited to hear that she is starting to reach out to you. Keep this up for a while. If she pulls away and tries to control the situation, back off. As I said, I do believe she loves you. And you want to know what the best indicator of that is. If she laughs at the funny things you say, or do. To me this is the best indicator that she is in love. That and her just being happy to be with you. Do not be baited in to changing back because she shows you affection. If and when you do make love. Afterwords, while you are still together. You need tell her that though you wish you could show her more love and affection, due to her pulling away when you do, you understand that it only drove her further away. She needs to understand that the closeness and love you show her is entirely based upon her ability to receive it. Not on your ability to love and forgive her.

I really appreciate you and your advice. I thought that I would share with you my latest email to her, tell me what you think.

If you were to compare my love to a flower, it would be the most brlliant beautiful flower that you have ever seen. If you were to start to pull off the pedals one by one, we would be old and gray before you made any headway. My heart blooms like that flower, and you are the sun and the rain that makes it grow. I love you!

Chuck

I think that at ths point I can see the light at the end of the tunnel, not that I think we are close, but a silver lining none the less. What goes through my mind though, is how do I know that shewon't do this again? Will I always ask that? She has yet to show any remorse, and the MC says that not everyone does. I just thnk that she needs to hate what she has done, in order for me to move on. I hate to sound petty, but she should beg me at some point, or am I wrong?

Chuck,
She will feel remorse or start feeling guilty (or shame) when she realizes how much she really loves you. My FWH was most remorseful when his love bank was full and his needs were being met and that is when he felt the worst for having done what he did. Keep filling the love bank, remove the love busters and know your's and her needs (not sure it's in the right order but you get it).

GG

Thats great, but you need to remain somewhat stoic around her. Let your letters do your talking. GG is right. The more her bank get filled the more remorse she will have. If it doesn't show up. Then you have to decide what you're willing to put up with and what you are willing to do.

Chuck, do NOT send that email yet. Wait a year or so, after she has PROVEN she has re-dedicated herself to you and your marriage, and has shown some remorse. Right now, she is NOT worthy of such sentiments-she COULD still turn around and run off with either her last OM or another one.

Also remember, when you express romantic sentiments to her, she pulls away. If you send her this email, this will be the most likely result, as she's not ready to deal with such sentiments from you yet.

From what I've seen on this forum, recovering a marriage damaged by infidelity is a lot like starting with a brand new dating/romantic relationship. You generally don't express deep loving sentiments during the first few dates, because the other person may not be ready to hear them, especially since they may not feel the same (yes there are exceptions, but that's the general rule) and could run off.

Well, recovering a marriage is a lot like building a new relationship, especially as far as the WS is concerned. Their loving feelings for the BS have usually faded, or buried so far down it's like they aren't there. Those feelings have to be rebuilt or unearthed, which is what meeting ENs is about. After all, that's why people fall in love in the first place, right? 'Cause their ENs are being met by the other person?

Well Chuck, for right now you've got the treat your wife like you've just started dating her. Treat her like you've been "out together" like 3-4 times, and it looks like there will be a 5th, but you're not certain beyond that. She will be treating you like someone she likes enough to keep seeing, but not quite sure she's in love with yet.

In other words, take it slow, don't rush things. And keep a close eye on her to make sure she maintains NC, because she can NOT be trusted yet.

Thank you all again for your support.

I cam really close to telling her today that I have had enough, and that she needs to figure out what shewants or that I will end it. I thoghtthat I had better control over my emotions, but I didn't let it slip. I told her how much I love her. No response. Then I asked how she feels and what she thinks when I say things like that. She said that she doesn't know what to say so she feels awkward. I then asked what she thinks is her biggest need from me, she said she doesn't know. So I said ok, what are five needs? Again she doesn't know and then she changed the subject. It makes me mad that I work so hard for so little. And at the same time, I want to warn her that I am going to end it if things don't change. I know it wouldn't help, so I didn't. But I want to talk to her so much about things, and she doesn't. It frustrates me to no end. The only thing I can do is say to myself "ok, not to much longer and you will be done with all of this, one way or another"

Chuck you should have said enough is enough. Once again you give your power away to someone who uses it against you. My suggestion. Tell her you are through putting up with her crap and you are filing for divorce. You will not live with a cheating wife who can't muster enough thankfulness for your forgiveness. You are worth more then what she has to offer. KICK HER A$$ OUT. Stand up to her before she kills your love with her complacent attitude.

I wasn't online yesterday, to get your message. I am so confused righ now. I think that the fog is very much lifting. I don't know if the MC told her that I was about o quit or what,but tre has been a big change in her demeaner. It sort of comes and goes but the big thing that I have been noticing for about a week, is that her face is getting softer. Not as hard as it has been for months now.

It's wierd. She called me yesterday complaining that it is secretary day, and that none of the managers remembered. She said that she felt unappreciated. I tld her that I understood. What I did no tell her is thatI had ordered her flowers, and that they would be delivered an hour later. I didn't know it was secretary day, I just love her. Later she called me after the flowers came. I could not answer, when I returned the call. She told me a few things about work and oh btw thank you for the flowers. I was so furious. Then later on the way to our sons game she held my hand. Then at night she moved over so that I could lay with her on the couch. Today I left a note that said I love you, on her coffee pot. She actually aknowledged it and that it made her feel good. I will see the MC today, I will be interested in what he says. But it seems to me as though over the last couple of weeks, she is trying to make a better effort. I think that it is important for me to remembe that it may not be as much as I want, but it is progress. Rome wasn't built in a day!

My wife love's my spontaneity too. Looks like you're onto a better wicket. (Love language of gifts and service)

Bump. How you doing.