BH

I cut and pasted this about a week ago (not sure who posted it)

Regarding attempts at contact for discussing reconciliation and poor recoveries I have seen on MB--Steve said the biggest mistake people make is taking the WS back with no clear-cut plan for R. Steve also mentioned the following:

1. WS does not have to end the A before we can talk about R (Steve said he will help guide us and negotiate the end of the A and make a plan for R). So a NC letter FIRST is not a requirement.

2. I spell out what WS needs to do...get help for the addiction

3. He said I should wait for WS to show me what he is offering without me giving any indication of where I stand.

-WS does all the talking

-See what his plan is for R

-How does he know he is ready?

-He has to be showing actions that are consistent with R

-Show me he has/plans to remove OW from his life

-He said tell WS we need help/guidance, and let Steve then talk with him (no recovery demands as he will feel he is being controlled or I am being demanding). Steve said I could say something like,"We are really close to the edge here, and I do not want to make any mistakes. I would like to get someone to help us through this. All I know is I want us to be in love again. I am not asking you for a commitment, I am just asking you to speak with him so you find out his professional opinion of what R would involve for us."

4. During this time, I remain guarded and can say that it is not that I do not care, but that I just want to ease into R.

BH - that is my question exactly. Becaue he has come back so many times, I doubt his sincerity. Not sure how to tell when he is sincere

Ok that clears up things alot but there is still one thing that is nagging me.
When you are in a situation that you have reached the point of happily selling a kidney just to hear WS say nice things and make the promises you have been waiting so long to hear, How do you resist? Im really not asking this for my sake but more in order for Vets and Posters to give tips to Claygal on how to resist the things that you have been dying to hear and see past them so claygal can be prepared, because I can see this WS putting on the charm big time and Claygal has shown she is very storng during plan A as it is about giving WS the love and care she has already got for him. Plan B is more about taking that love away in order to shock WS out of stupid fog state and Claygal comes accross as a giver rather than a taker. Its easy to love someone you already love but hard to cut off someone you love and not take them back at the smallest show of vulnerability.

My tip on the above would be to remember that Plan B is really something that can only happen effectivly once, you cant cut off, love, cut off, love spouse repeatedly because this will drastically lower effectivness of plan B therefore when feeling down and her relove is faltering i would ask her to consider the IMMENSE pain she is going trough and that if she carries on with plan B then she will only have to do it ONCE. If she brakes plan B then there is either doing a less effective plan B (as will no longer have credibility factor by WS) or live in the pain she is in now indefinitly.

Claygal upon reflection of our question on when do you know, maybe you should write a list of the needs you have to have met before you beleive WS, after all its now about him convincing you he wants M to work.

For example, to show that he means wanting to make M work he has to

- Move back home and eliminate "single lifestyle" he is living in now
- End all contact with OW and this time the onus to prove it is on him. You will presume he is still in contact with OW until he proves otherwise and write list of what would prove to you that there is NC.

The above are just a few ideas , you know your own needs by now and will hopefully come up with better list etc.

I am also aware that this can push him away as well so offer things in return that you know he has asked for and that you learned about in Plan A.

BH:
"Plan B can only happen effectively once."


Very true.
Everyone considering Plan B should remember that your first bite at the apple is the best one. Make it count. With this in mind, clay may want to postpone the yard sale. A year from now, whether the yard sale actually happened on the right weekend (and the garage stayed cluttered for one more week).

I am thinking of writing a list of ways to prove to me that he is serious and give it to my mediator. She can then tell him that I have heard his responses in the past, but am at the point where I need to see actions before I will consider even talking with him. Is this a correct response for plan B?

You know that because your WH has been fence-sitting and walking all over your boundaries for the past year that this is going to freak him out, right? He isn't going to be able to handle that you are standing up and taking control of the situation.

I would defintly be prepared for him to make empty promises in an attempt for you to end your Plan B. I would start making a list of your conditions and set the bar high so that you don't have another false recovery.

armymama had posted her conditions in her thread, maybe it would help you to look at hers.
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2122499&page=5

Further, a couple posts below AM's conditions, Kayla posted this to her and I think it applies to you:

I am totally confused by readings response. Do I make a list of conditions or not? Do I just ask him what his plans for recover are?

I agree. I would cancel the yard sale. You need to go completely dark and do not enable your WH cake-eating ways any longer. Think of all the small ways he will try to weasel his way in(dropping by, sending message thru daughters, etc) and prepare yourself.

Yes, make a list!

ex)
~ Move back home
~ commit to MB weekend in Jan
~ commit to 100% NC
~ WH calls and sets up a session with Steve H
~ 100% transparency, giving you access to all passwords and cell phone records
etc etc

I am still contemplating yard sale. it is a neighborhood sale, and I honestly need the money very badly. He seems to be so angry right now that I don't think he will stop by.

OK ClayGal all im asking you is to be honest with yourself
Are you prepared for seeing him face to face and holding your ground? Plan B has only been in action 2 hours and u read email.

Im really not trying to be hard on you but just trying to get to you to be honest about what reaction you are going to get.

1) He may turn up and play nice making you weaken your reserve and not maintain NC with him

2) He may not turn up and be nasty, again this will not help you either as you might panic and think he is giving up and moving on making you weaken your reserve.

Its a loose loose situation.

The money you make in the yard sale will pale in comparison to the money you'll lose to the divorce lawyers.
Ask if someone else can handle your goods for a commission if its that important to you. If he can just drive up and see you and you'll be trapped, that's not good. Plan B blown out of the water.

claygal,

Are you 100% committed to Plan B or not? It doesn't sound like it.

My understanding is that, yes, you have a list but the initial meeting if a Wayward approaches the IM to talk about reconsiliation with you....you listen to what he has to offer to gauge how ready he is to meet your list.

You listen more than demand at that point. You don't commit to working with him on it til he shows he is seriously going to give it a go.

Ideally, he talks with a MB coach to get some prep on how to truly recover the marriage and you go from there.

They can not just not move back in immediately cause that is not in the best interest of a true recovery but a step to happen during the process (after getting a clear plan to work with each other)

If you insist on doing the yard sale and he shows up...you lovingly greet him but ask him to leave and respect your letter and boundaries. If he refuses...you lovingly tell him that you are at your limit of accepting his affair and the information in the letter stands. You stated everything there. Do not get drawn into an argument but request he leave, nicely, over and over again. A sort of plan Aish response to his pushing your limits. A way to get him to leave and to leave a good impression still.

You might resort to having to walk away from him and leaving the yard sale stuff where it can be swiped by a crook. Keep that in mind (maybe set up your stuff so it can be closed off by a fence if your H appears and you must leave).

I would not hold my yard sale. I would find something else to do and even maybe sell on craigslist or something if I need the dough!

Good luck, be thinking of you.

OK stroke of Genius (or maybe not)

Here is what i would do. If you really want/need the money and distraction from yard sale then get MI to email WS and advise him that you are no longer doing yard sale due to not wanting contact with him as you are aware he may come over and you do not want to see him etc as stated in letter.

This might help as if WS turns up then you can do above plan suggested from reading's post.

This might help if he doesent turn up as you can justify him not turning up on being told yard sale off and wont panic so much about him not being there.

Bad point is that WS will know your thinking about him and getting nervous about him turning up so got MI to email him. This may make breaking him harder if he knows little things he does can get to you.

Thanks. all good points. I think I will postpone garage sale. Just to avoid seeing him. I can sell things on craigslist

Claygal --

This is another downside to impulsively going into Plan B.

Your Plan B was not finished, it was still in draft form.

Its supposed to be a roadmap home -- its supposed to contain your list of requirements. So now you'll need to wait.

Have it in your head, or written down so that you have them when you need them. But NO REACHING OUT TO HIM IN PLAN B. You only respond to your IM.

Still confused about how to know he is serious....getting 2 kinds of responses. Do I:

1) make list of requirements?
2) give him responsibility to come up with how to save marriage?

I am thinking the latter because of how he has responded to me in the past. I have told him what needs to happen and he hasn't followed through.

yeah but you havent told him what needs to happen and MEANT IT in hi eyes, You have told him what he needs to do and loved him even when he didnt.

Make list for your own clarification
ask him to come up with ways and compare both, come up with way forward together once has shown committment by making his own list that has to incorporate being TOTALLY transparent and abandoning single lifestyle he is living right now.

Can you clarify how he is living right now. Is he acting like he is still married in any way or is he totally embracing single man lifestyle?