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catperson #2270846 11/07/09 07:52 AM
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fwiw, I DO understand cwmi. Probably better than the rest of you. Because I understand fear and dysfunctionalism better than most, because I've studied it relentlessly. Given her background, she was almost 100% guaranteed to grow up hard as nails, determined to win, and scared as hell to show any weakness. And even more scared to consider going to therapy to learn to tear down those walls, to get real closeness with her H.

Is that a criticism? No. It's an analysis.

An analysis that could help her find peace, if she would hear it. But she's so tired of me questioning her - and I guess you guys are, too - and trying to get her to look at herself, that she no longer hears it.

The only solution she wants is one where she gets to stay the same, and HE changes.

jayne241 #2270849 11/07/09 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by jayne241
And anyway, what about these action items?

(1) Say NOTHING that could possibly be interpreted as a jab. No quips, no iffy wording that could be interpreted either way, nothing where you could claim to have said it innocently even if he took it wrong.

First, no I don't think you come across as pounding on me.

Now to address this quote...it is absolutely the most difficult thing to do, because (at least for me, in regards to him) it is so hard to predict. For example, yesterday it was super-cold out when we headed out for our walk. I put on a long-sleeve tee and had my thickest sweatshirt over it. I live in the south, I don't really have a lot of brrr clothes, this was the best bundle I could do without putting on a heavy coat (which, imo, would restrict my movement too much for what I was doing...not a strolling walk, but power-walking). So we're getting ready to hit the door and H says, "Are you going to be warm enough?" I said, yeah, I think so, this is the warmest stuff I've got. He said, well, if you think so, but I don't think you're going to be warm enough.

Now if I had said just "Are you going to be warm enough?" he would have went OFF. He would have said I was second-guessing his judgment, that I didn't give him the respect of assuming that he knew how to dress himself, etc. Or not. Maybe he would have taken it as me showing care. There's a 50/50 chance he'll go either way with it. Hard to tell, until it leaves my mouth.

To 'say nothing where you could claim to have said it innocently' means, to me, to say nothing at all. How's that supposed to work, except as a means to withdraw?


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
Telly #2270853 11/07/09 08:14 AM
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Thanks, Telly. Vicious, ugly, cruel...yep. I agree, and I do need to stop toggling, so I'll do that.



Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
HitchHiker #2270854 11/07/09 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by HitchHiker
FWIW, I see your posts as constructive, helpful and insightful. I hope my posts are worthy of something as well. smile

Agreed, on both counts. Yes, INTJ.


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
CWMI #2270856 11/07/09 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by canwemakeit
Originally Posted by jayne241
And anyway, what about these action items?

(1) Say NOTHING that could possibly be interpreted as a jab. No quips, no iffy wording that could be interpreted either way, nothing where you could claim to have said it innocently even if he took it wrong.

First, no I don't think you come across as pounding on me.

Good! I'm glad. smile So I can continue to be frank. You can be Ernest. lol

[/quote]Now to address this quote...it is absolutely the most difficult thing to do,[/quote]

I know, honey, I *know*! Do it anyway. You can, I know if you really decide to, and put your mind to it, you can do this. You don't *have* to be ruled by your impulses!

Quote
because (at least for me, in regards to him) it is so hard to predict. For example, yesterday it was super-cold out when we headed out for our walk. I put on a long-sleeve tee and had my thickest sweatshirt over it. I live in the south, I don't really have a lot of brrr clothes, this was the best bundle I could do without putting on a heavy coat (which, imo, would restrict my movement too much for what I was doing...not a strolling walk, but power-walking). So we're getting ready to hit the door and H says, "Are you going to be warm enough?" I said, yeah, I think so, this is the warmest stuff I've got. He said, well, if you think so, but I don't think you're going to be warm enough.

Now if I had said just "Are you going to be warm enough?" he would have went OFF. He would have said I was second-guessing his judgment, that I didn't give him the respect of assuming that he knew how to dress himself, etc. Or not. Maybe he would have taken it as me showing care. There's a 50/50 chance he'll go either way with it. Hard to tell, until it leaves my mouth.

Yes, he will still continue in the same pattern that y'all have established, at first. It is a years-old pattern, it is firmly entrenched. It may be unpleasant but it's *familiar*.

But *you* have decided you don't like that pattern, right? So your challenge is to decide what your values are (what do you value more: the established pattern, being right, or an improved marriage?) and then to abide by those values in the face of a LOT of temptations and change-back behavior.

I think you've read The Dance of Anger, right? Remember the bit about change-back behavior? He WILL exhibit it. Maybe because it's familiar, change is uncomfortable; or maybe because he's "testing" your sincerity.

DON'T be manipulated by his change-back behavior! DON'T let yourself be ruled by whims and impulses! Be strong, be firm!

Quote
To 'say nothing where you could claim to have said it innocently' means, to me, to say nothing at all. How's that supposed to work, except as a means to withdraw?

Hmm... I dunno, maybe a bit of withdrawal on your part would be ok? Not sure, so don't quote me on that, but I'm thinking, just to make sure you ease off on him. As long as it looks to him like you've eased off, and not like you've withdrawn in bitterness.

I dunno, maybe there are other tricks that can help. Maybe go back through the posts to you, looking for ideas to help you with this. NOT looking for ideas to shoot down - if they aren't pertinent to helping you do my #1 action item, then just skip right over that phrase, not necessarily the whole post.

It IS possible to let something you disagree with go by. You don't *have* to point out every reason why something won't work. Don't waste your time and energy on that. Concentrate on finding the nuggets that MIGHT work.

For me, I seriously would bite my tongue. And I kept telling myself, "Fake it till you make it." And I came here and reported, and ears and LA called me to task every time I DJ'ed, so I started changing the way I phrased things according to certain rules.

I also pre-screened what I said to H according to those rules, and made sure I phrased things in the form of "I feel" statements, and that there were no accusatory or judging statements.

That was the start of things getting much much better. But CONSISTENCY was KEY. I couldn't just do that for 3-4 weeks. I had to keep it up over MONTHS, and H's acceptance of it was slow.

I gotta run, can't be late to DSs's 1st b-ball game! I'll check back in later. But I *really* hope you give this a try... and think about using those "rules" of no DJing, etc.

*hugs*


me - 47 tired
H - 39 cool
married 2001
DS 8a think
DS 8b :crosseyedcrazy:
(Why is DS7b now a blockhead???)
(Ack! Now he's not even a blockhead, just a word! That's no fun!)
jayne241 #2270863 11/07/09 09:19 AM
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It IS possible to let something you disagree with go by. You don't *have* to point out every reason why something won't work.

WHAT?!?!?!?!?! WHY WOULD I WANT TO DO THAT?!?!

lol. j/k. This is what I've been trying to do--not there 100%, but working on it.

NOTE to retread: I ordered that book you keep suggesting, went to Amazon for my textbooks--bought 'em new and saved $64 over the used prices at the college store, so I used some of my savings for it, used, at $4.02. I LOVE being thrifty.


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
catperson #2270866 11/07/09 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by catperson
fwiw, I DO understand cwmi. Probably better than the rest of you. Because I understand fear and dysfunctionalism better than most, because I've studied it relentlessly. Given her background, she was almost 100% guaranteed to grow up hard as nails, determined to win, and scared as hell to show any weakness. And even more scared to consider going to therapy to learn to tear down those walls, to get real closeness with her H.

Is that a criticism? No. It's an analysis.

An analysis that could help her find peace, if she would hear it. But she's so tired of me questioning her - and I guess you guys are, too - and trying to get her to look at herself, that she no longer hears it.

The only solution she wants is one where she gets to stay the same, and HE changes.

You can "analyze" all you want, cat. But it's all still YOUR OPINION. And you don't know what any of the rest of us have studied or not studied. So don't assume that you know better than the rest of us.

You are ASSUMING that cwmi has a need to win. Just as some people could assume that about me.

For me, the only way I can generally lose certain games is if I THROW them, which I am not going to do... it's insulting to me and to my partner.

When I was younger, we used to play the board game version of "Wheel of Fortune." I was such an avid reader my whole life that I could not help but know the answers very quickly. People hated it so much that they would SCREAM at me, and accuse me of cheating, and it was horrible.

I finally burst into tears and never played the game with them again. How is it MY fault that I happen to be good at the game?

I wanted to play. I wanted to be happy together. I wanted to be together. But it turned into a HAVE TO WIN scenario by my family. I didn't care if I lost... I almost never do. I just want to laugh and play and tease and be silly.

My husband feels angry if he loses. It's horrible. I do NOT play competitive sports with him of any kind unless I know I'm BAD at it.

It's dysfunctional for her to continue play these games with him.

If your point is that you think she ought to appreciate his EFFORT, then that is a different thing. Where he started was a good place, with a good motive, but he blew it.

She's not upset because of the outcome of the game, she's upset because he treated her like CRAP. Which he did.

Good for her for seeing it.

Now they have to POJA better RCA's.


Me 42
H 46
Married 12 years
Two children D9 and D4 !
Telly #2270872 11/07/09 09:55 AM
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Ok, I completely understand the way you felt about the interaction with your husband about the walk. I am the epitome of "sauce for the goose/sauce for the gander". I've probably taken years off the end of my life stressing about "well if HE did XYZ it would be ok but it's not if I do it" or "if I said that to HIM, he'd go off on it".

And I've only recently come to the conclusion that the only person I'm hurting with this line of thinking, is me.

I'd love to be able to tell you I had an epiphany, an A-HA moment over that and I never went down that road again.

But I can't 'cause I didn't.

But I *am* aware of it now and in many more cases than before, I'm able to take a statement like that your H made (saying he didn't think you'd be warm enough) and not acknowledge it, give it power, or give it a response. I just let it sit there.

And the big payoff was a LOT LESS STRESS AND ANGST for me!

So worth it!

Telly #2270921 11/07/09 11:51 AM
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She's not upset because of the outcome of the game, she's upset because he treated her like CRAP. Which he did.
Did I misunderstand? I thought she said he treated her that way because she won.

So I said, why do you have to win?

Isn't just playing the game enough fun, and if you don't have to win, and he might even win, he will enjoy it and play again - without being a [censored].

Telly #2270923 11/07/09 11:57 AM
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You can "analyze" all you want, cat. But it's all still YOUR OPINION. And you don't know what any of the rest of us have studied or not studied. So don't assume that you know better than the rest of us.
She asked me directly how to make him happy, and I gave her concrete suggestions on steps she could take - which she admits she didn't even read.

Were those suggestions bad suggestions? If she actually read them, considered them, and even tried them, do you acknowledge that those suggestions could help her marriage?

btw, I wasn't saying that I know better than anyone, and I never said that I was smarter than you or had a better answer. I was saying that I know what I'm talking about. That what I see in cwmi is a valid analysis, based on what I've learned over the years. Smirks, smart answers, quips...are a result of feeling like you have to be on top, and that you can't let anyone see your weakness.

And I have been on her H's side, so I DO know how he feels. All he wants is a wife who he can feel safe with - instead he has a wife he knows loves him, but can't stop judging him. So the more he's judged, the more he feels he can do no right, and pulls away and becomes even more obstinate and independent. I've been warning for months that he'd get fed up and choose to leave her rather than live like this - no matter WHO is wrong, and look at what's happening now.

It doesn't matter who started all this - although cwmi would disagree - what matters is that SOMEONE has to stop the dance. And she's the only one here.

Look, I get that she hates me, thinks I'm on a vendetta or something. Whatever. But the advice I've given, as far as I can tell, has always been consistent, in telling her that she can have the H she wants, if SHE takes some steps. And I've tried telling her in every way I can think of, to get through to her. Obviously, she will never listen to anything I say without a tarnish. Fine.

As long as she finally hears it from someone.

CWMI #2270928 11/07/09 12:19 PM
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NOTE to retread: I ordered that book you keep suggesting, went to Amazon for my textbooks--bought 'em new and saved $64 over the used prices at the college store, so I used some of my savings for it, used, at $4.02. I LOVE being thrifty.

CWMI, my son buys all his textbooks on Amazon or B&N, most of them used. I hope you don't think I am badgering you about that book. Glad you got it cheap. I didn't even tell you about it until I had ordered a used hardback myself. (wink) I am giving a copy to both my single daughters, so they will aim high.

Oh, what are you taking in school?

Retread #2270932 11/07/09 12:28 PM
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I bought Buyers Renters & Freeloaders on Amazon for $.25!

My son bought his textbooks on Amazon as well--and will be selling them there when he's done!

Retread #2270954 11/07/09 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Retread
CWMI, my son buys all his textbooks on Amazon or B&N, most of them used. I hope you don't think I am badgering you about that book. Glad you got it cheap. I didn't even tell you about it until I had ordered a used hardback myself. (wink) I am giving a copy to both my single daughters, so they will aim high.

Oh, what are you taking in school?

I haven't checked B&N in a long time, ever since they got rid of BNU. That was the bomb for someone like me...they had online classes you could take...FREE...on all kinds of subjects with instructors and feedback and peer feedback, I loved that stuff. I didn't know they sell used. The coursebooks I just bought include media and codes for online labs, so I went new. No media? Def going used.

No, you didn't badger about the book. I looked it up and decided it does look very interesting to me, in the cart it goes! It has got to be better than "Surrendering to Marriage", which was apparently written for wives with a wayward mind. I was actually offended by much of it, and hurt. Many of the stories involved devoted husbands with disinterested wives, wives who felt stifled by being loved so much, and only wanted glamor and hot new lovers. Erp, I'm going to throw up again. lol

I'm a brand-spanking new freshman, so I'll be filling core for the next three semesters. Right now my major is English, which I almost hate saying because people usually respond, "What on earth for?" and all I can say is...it's where my treasure lies, at least as far as intellectual pursuits. Plus, I could never pass the math for a science degree.


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
Telly #2270969 11/07/09 03:24 PM
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I apologize up front for the t/j...

Originally Posted by Telly
For me, the only way I can generally lose certain games is if I THROW them, which I am not going to do... it's insulting to me and to my partner...When I was younger, we used to play the board game version of "Wheel of Fortune." I was such an avid reader my whole life that I could not help but know the answers very quickly. People hated it so much that they would SCREAM at me, and accuse me of cheating, and it was horrible....I finally burst into tears and never played the game with them again. How is it MY fault that I happen to be good at the game?

This really shows that people have different motivations. In my situation, it's more important for me to spend time with people and still play a game I love. I love Wheel of Fortune myself (a bit old now, but still great). I'd rather play it, win in my mind, throw it, and have a good time with my friends then never play that game again. I guess for you, Telly, you've got so many other thigns you can do with your friends that not playing WoF doesn't bother you... but I'm pretty good at almost every game my friends and I play- so if I took that route, I soon wouldn't have anyone to hang with!

In cwmi's case, seems to me that her husband has an issue with her having to always be right all the time. I'm not judging whether or not she displays that attitude, I'm just regurgitating what she quoted him a few pages back. So it would be nice to give him safe opportunities to be a man and best her. If not throwing a game, then perhaps finding one where they are more evenly matched so he could win honestly.

Is it fair to coddle to someone's ego? No... but if you want to keep him from walking out the door, I don't see how doing so temporarily could hurt.


"If you will stop feeding your feelings, then they will stop controlling you" -Joyce Meyer
CWMI #2270972 11/07/09 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by canwemakeit
He said, well, if you think so, but I don't think you're going to be warm enough....Now if I had said just "Are you going to be warm enough?" he would have went OFF. He would have said I was second-guessing his judgment, that I didn't give him the respect of assuming that he knew how to dress himself, etc.

cwmi, do you think he would be receptive to pointing this out during a calm, quiet moment? Asking him how he think you should resolve the fact that if you had asked the same thing he would have been upset? Maybe , after reminding him of the "warm enough" conversation, point out the reversal that happened in the "coming to bed" conversation you told us about a month or two ago?

Or might that just set him off, and push you two steps backward?


"If you will stop feeding your feelings, then they will stop controlling you" -Joyce Meyer
Telly #2270973 11/07/09 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Telly
And I can't PRETEND to not know how to play ping pong or scrabble, or air hockey. I am good. I'm not going to be fakey fakey stupid, uncoordinated girl...Maybe eventually we can play together, but until me winning doesn't send him into a tailspin, I won't do it.

Someone help me out here, b/c I'm relativly new...

cwmi, what I see in you is someone who is extremly frustrated, has done all she needs to do in order to improve her marriage, and is now hurting from the appearance that (in spite of all her effort, all the changes she's made, all she's had to put up with) her H does not consider the M or her important enough to work on (this being inferred from broken promises, choosing work over the family, and allowing other people to walk over him even when she expresses her disapproval).

I also gather that you want more quality time with your husband.

Well, as the originator of the "fake losing" idea, and someone who learned that I get invited to more get-togethers when I'm not always besting everyone, it seems to me that tempering game performance (much as catperson explained) might be a quick, easy, way to start sharing positive time with him. Maybe not postive from cwmi's perspective, but postive from her HUSBAND's perspective.

Or, cwmi, is the real problem that you'll play Scrabble and he'll consider the "quality time" block checked, and think that's a "get out of jail free" card to spend more time at work or something else away from you?

If you want more time with him, that means more time with him and his current attitude, until you've put in enough time to (hopefully) change his attitude.


"If you will stop feeding your feelings, then they will stop controlling you" -Joyce Meyer
DaisyTheCat2 #2270979 11/07/09 03:39 PM
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CWMI,

1. Get a job and bring in income.

2. Ask your husband to cut his work hours by ________because now your income will make up for his shortened work houres.

Then, both of you will be happy.

Right now, you want the MONEY your husband works hard for and you also want the TIME he is giving up by working this hard. You cannot have both.

DaisyTheCat2 #2270983 11/07/09 03:52 PM
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Daisy, I think you're putting way to much responsibility on me for something that is beyond my control. If he wants to win a board game, shouldn't he work TOWARD that goal, instead of blaming the other person for his failure to do so? I'm going to go all ridiculous now, but it's kind of like me wanting to win a gymnastics gold medal, and expecting the rest of the competitors to 'throw' it to me. Cause I want it, and don't want to have to work for it, ya know?

I think he plays because he knows I like the game, and it's something easy to do and say, "See? I did something with you."

Counter to what you said about not being invited to play if you didn't sometimes throw your game: I would not want to play with someone who did that, and I don't think Telly would, either, because it is DISRESPECTFUL to basically tell your friends, "I don't think you're smart enough to win this without my help."


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
CWMI #2271001 11/07/09 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by canwemakeit
"Counter to what you said about not being invited to play if you didn't sometimes throw your game: I would not want to play with someone who did that, and I don't think Telly would, either, because it is DISRESPECTFUL to basically tell your friends, "I don't think you're smart enough to win this without my help."

That's exactly how I feel about it. I was (am) terrible TERRIBLE at trivial pursuit. Some people were great at it. We knew it. Sure, we would switch things up (partners, etc). But you always knew who was probably going to have the answer, and it usually was not going to be me!

Maybe I am competitive, in that I want a game to be fair--everyone bringing their best. I would hate it if I thought someone was doing less than their best to placate me. Not only does it mean they are playing down to me, but that they don't think I can handle it if I lose!

I've hosted many a "game night" in my life, and I've played my heart out, won, lost, and always had a blast (except when some guy kept buzzing a buzzer in my ear to annoy me). The negative example I shared was with my siblings, and now with my husband. So now we only play games where we both can win, or where our skills are about equal, or I know I'm not as good.

I don't mind losing. And sure, I like winning--but I don't NEED to win. I just want to be able to give it my all, and have fun while doing it--laughing, talking, being silly, etc. In fact, when I was playing volleyball, I never cared what the outcome was of the game, as long as I personally had played my best.

The game is no fun if I can't play my best, whether I win or lose isn't the point. I want to play a good game, use my mind well (or body, whichever kind of game it is).






Me 42
H 46
Married 12 years
Two children D9 and D4 !
Telly #2271008 11/07/09 06:00 PM
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Maybe Retread or Hold will chime in here, but I'm kind of interested in the male/male game-playing behaviour vs the the male-female.

In my experience guys tend to play very hard against their friends, each competing as hard as they can to win. For that reason they tend not to play with people they know will lose all the time. For one it's boring, and two the other person gets angry/hurt/embarrassed. So say one guy is a real whiz on basketball, he probably won't play with his not so good mate but they might play tennis where the other guy has a chance to win.

Now, change this to male/female or husband/wife. If the wife is better at the game, and she beats the pants off him, he'll be ticked and embarrassed. Most men will avoid playing that game to avoid this situation. However, CWMI's husband seems to be sticking to it.

I do know that if my husband EVER found out I was cheating to lose, he'd be VERY angry and possibly never play any games with me again. It seems to be a violation of some guy rule to not play your best.

So the solution seems to be either teach the hubby to play the game in question better (probably not possible) or find some other game to play. Plead boredom with it, or something "Oh, we play that all the time".

How about bringing home some newer board games, or pick something very silly where it doesn't matter so much whether you win or lose. When I was a kid I used to love the Addams Family game because the last one across the finish line won.

On the English major thing, actually English majors are quite employable in a lot of business settings, so don't worry about the nay-sayers.

And you could always join Garrison Keillor's group POEM: the Professional Oraganization for English Majors. smile

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