L4:

Mr. L4:

I love you so much. I have hurt you in many ways. I am trying to repair/fix/resolve these hurts. I have worked hard on many of my behaviors and habits, behaviors that in the past would lead me away from you, instead of towards you.

I am asking you for one thing today.

I am asking you to start wearing your wedding ring again.

I understand in many respects I have done many things to make you NOT want to wear it. But it is a small first step. An indication to me, that you are still willing to be married to me today, as you were when we exchanged our rings 16 years ago.

L4

Sometimes, we just have to ask for what we want, and see if we get it. He will know then. He will put it on or not. He will throw away the note or not. He will have the control to do the most basic thing for you. If he does put it on, its power isn't diminished because you had to ASK. Its power is already there. Visible EVERY DAY. Its power to hurt you. He knows this.

He may come to you and state simply that he will put it on, when he feels ready to. Without malice or spite. Just letting you know the he got your note, and know how you feel, and he isn't ready yet. This type of acknowledgement means a great deal as well. It means he is on board, but still working though some things.

If he responds with anger, then sobeit. "How DARE you ask such a THING!" You know something about that as well.

LG

My two cents: the above thoughtful request looks like a selfish demand. You could turn it into a thoughtful request by simply changing the question to "How would you feel about wearing your wedding ring again?" Then in the follow-up discussion, you can wind around to the challenge of "will you wear it?"

If you can identify why he prefers not to wear it, you can resolve those concerns because you've made a thoughtful request rather than a selfish demand. I understand that asking him to wear his wedding rings seems common-sense and the right thing to do. Selfish demands ALWAYS appear that way to the spouse making them. Changing the way you ask to invite discussion, and ensuring the ensuing question is free of disrespectful judgments, is the key to turning it into a thoughtful request.

Suggestion: Schedule a nice three-hour block of undivided attention meeting his top emotional needs, and then about halfway or three-quarters of the way through it, explain your devotion to the marriage and how important the internal commitments are to you. Then sashay up to how important the external tokens of marriage are, as well. The visible reminders of your mutual devotion fill you with powerful emotions of attachment, love, and bonding. The car. The house. The children. The joint checking account. The wedding ring.

Ask him how he feels about wearing a wedding ring; then you'll probably get to the bottom of why he doesn't wear it. In my case, I'd lost it because I'd worked so long in electronics that I never wore it and had forgotten where I'd stored it. We went and bought new ones, and after 10 years of never wearing my wedding ring, I now wear it every day.

My old wedding ring was also a reminder of how we'd let things go wrong; buying new wedding rings together helps me remember that we want the person we're married to NOW, not the person we married 15 years ago.

Nice posts LG. I'm in total agreement, and I like the letter.

It doesn't ask too much but hopefully this one thing that he can do for you will be a catalyst for the other changes you want him to make.

If he can do this, it may open the door for communication about the rest of the list.

I have to disagree with you on this occasion Barnboy. I don't see this as a SD at all. It is a small but significant thing that Mr L4 can do (or not do) that will show his intent.

Even if he chooses not to wear his ring, it may give you the opportunity L4 to discuss the other issues on your list.

You need him to take that step towards you, rather than keeping you at arms length. The first step is, I think, always the hardest.

Maybe working out how you can encourage him to take that step to you will be the breakthrough you are looking for?

So much good advice here, I'll try not to repeat any but can't promise since I don't think I'll be able to remember everything that was said!
Warning ... I don't really have time to wait until I can post a well thought out and gentle post,

The first part of this is valid for Mr.L4, I get this, one of his top EN's is PA. I also get the fact that he feels jilted/rejected compared to FOM since you were thinner during the A.
The rest of what he says, was unnecessary IMO. This does nothing for his cause but make you feel less desirable than what you are already feeling. I can understand how it is difficult to get your motivation up and want to lose weight to meet that need, especially with little to no support from him.
I want to validate what you are up against and remind you that no one can make you feel less, if you don't allow it! That's a mindset that I think you don't have yet, not consistent and strong enough anyway. It seems to be an ongoing struggle for you. This is one that you have control over.

You verify that mindset it here .....

Yes you had 2 A's, you were a crappy crappy person, that's done L4. I wish that you could stop punishing yourself, and stop allowing punishment from Mr. L4. I wish that he could see that he is harming his own self in this process, but that is his choice to not seek support from anyone. When you allow him to make you feel less, this does not help either of you. It enables him to stay stuck and you to sink farther down in the pot of quicksand. You can only fight quicksand for so long ......

Your boundaries of what you will accept need to be in place all the time, not just for spurts of time. When you here these cruel words, even if it is occasionally now, (IDK how often it is now) it erases all the LB deposits Mr. L4 has made. Again, he is shooting himself in the foot.
Your boundaries can help to protect your LB. Since you are carrying the whole load, you need to protect what's in that account. You are worthy of that protection.

The explosion of emotions that you mentioned, I'm not surprised at all that this is happening. Your schedule is horrendous.
I remember these days, they were crazy and great at the same time. I managed, but I was not trying to save a M in the craziness. Personally I think something has to give,
the M should be #1 right now, before the kids, before the job. You are trying to repair a crippled horse when it works into the schedule and injuries just don't heal that way.
Yours or his.

What he does agree to help with, let him be responsible for it, totally responsible. If that job does not get done or done to your satisfaction, let him reap the cost of it not getting done.
Do not bail him out of his job, you can't control his contribution but you can control setting yourself up for more chaos in your day to day life.

This is not unreasonable, not by a long shot. I got a big tear in my eye for you when I read this cuz I know how much you want this.
I think these are all realistic goals at this stage of the game, it's not over. Again, I think it depends on how you care for yourself that will determine
how long you can carry this load.

Because you deserve to move forward, you have earned the right to move forward. Your kids need you to move forward, Mr. L4 needs you to move forward. Someone has to move forward or you'll all be going backwards. You said yourself that you can feel past behaviours setting in. Quicksand .....

Add ons that I just didn't have time for ...... and not sure when I'll be back here so I better get it all in now.

V's thread, hmm, I don't know if I can give it the commitment that I feel it should have right now. I'm reading on the website and that is what I need to do for the moment. I may post on it again at some point.

Don't get down with the steps back L4, I'm finding that this R business takes a whole lot of work and emotional energy. And for us .... we are both working the program the best we can. Old behaviours do creep back, it seems like there should be a bouncer at the door to stop them from getting in, but there's not, just us.
I tell you this not to worry about me, but to let you know that it is hard even in a textbook (well sort of) R. KWIM ???

I like that you changed your thread title, new words with a more peaceful thought to see every time you log in! A journey, a goal.

How did your new website do ???? Sounds exciting, you impress the heck out of me.

The weight thing ..... not sure where I read it, you can look it up if you want or just take my word for it, but a good night of sleep (more than your usual 4-5hrs) aids in losing weight! That's like a freebee effort.
Also, keep up with your vitamins. I have found in the past, when I get lazy with my vits, the weight seems to creep in easier, harder to get off, and I'm more tired and exercise is more of a chore.

L4, think of stairs as your best friend, at home or at work, try to go up them 2 or 3 every time you need to go up or down. It's amazing
how much of a mini workout you can get in, in a day. It may not be much, but it helps. If you have heels on, go up by 2 steps, not one.
Good luck with Jenny Craig, I'll watch for you on the commercials.

EDIT TO CORRECT .... I know for me, when I am at a weight where my clothes feel good and look how they are suppose to (I agree Mark!), then I feel good.
I want to look desirable for my H, but I want to look good for myself too. When I know that I look pretty darn good, I feel desirable
to my H. It's not all about him, I like that feeling for myself. I suppose some of it is vanity, but that keeps me within my limits that I have
for my weight. (and btw, I am not a size 2 or 4 or even a 6, (barbie doll sizes ) I hover between an 8 and a 10, depends on the brand ya know)

And belated Happy Anniversary! from me too.
I'm glad that you got H a card, like ST said, you need to reassure him that you want to be married to him.
Keep letting him know that you are proud to be his wife, not only happy, but proud to be Mrs.L4!

Sugarcane .... I saw the Brit version of Bayer aspirin, but am too thick to understand your caption of 'this doesn't work in english' :don and tknow:
Totally missed the boat on that one.

Mark you can have all the ASA you need. I found it hard to read your words too about your W.

I hope to make the rounds to some of the other threads, over the weekend, wow some really good stuff goin' on you guys. I love it.

I forgot one for my wishlist.

I've long thought that this wasn't important and that I could do without it, but I don't think I can. I want to be forgiven by H.

Things I've thought and feared, but seeing this in writing yesterday from a person who knows me only via the typed word, took my breath away.

Some, but he seems resentful about it.

Keeping me at arms length is what I think H is doing. We have fun together and even in those moments, I feel him holding back. He has told me that he thinks people think he's a fool for staying with me after what I did. (I don't get this from our close friends and family at all.)

I've talked here before about how H does not want our kids growing up in a broken family. Some days I think his kind and affectionate moments come from him deeply caring for me, then other days I sense it's just to keep things going so the family stays together. In those moments I feel his actions are insincere and out of obligation.

I sense H's vacillation. He can be vulnerable (which he is not comfortable with) and invest again in this M or be defensive and make sure he doesn't get hurt again. So he's nice just enough to keep me guessing -- as if he's making things work just enough to get us through the days. But that underlying doubt from him is present and I do not believe he is happy. I've told him this too and he doesn't disagree.

We haven't made love in over a month. And not because I don't want to.

I read my recent posts and I feel that I'm portraying H unfairly and I'm not giving him enough credit -- especially after all he's been through by my doing. The AOs are fewer and less severe then pre-D-Day. He hugs me more and says thank you more then before D-day. When we do make love, he cares about my experience too. He's funny. He loves music as I do. He provides for our family and he would do anything for our children. He is more then a decent guy. He's a wonderful man whom I hope loves me somewhere in there. Which it why it hurts me that he doesn't want to try to make our M more than it is, with love and ENs met and no LBs.

I see BHs here who wanted to recover their Ms but it didn't happen, like Zelmo and 6YL, who are offering their help to me. And there are those BHs who are still married who have and continue to work hard to recover their Ms and seem to have Ws who were also putting in the effort but I still sense disappointment -- like Man In Motion. And even some of your more recent posts, Sh0cked.

I'm seeing that recovering from infidelity -- even when the BH is willing -- is not as successful as I've been hoping.

I haven't printed out the domestic support questionnaire but I will.

This is pretty straight-forward, but it's not clear to me because there are kids involved. There is history. There is still love on my part. There is my stubbornness and my desire to help H -- from the A, yes, and in all ways. And if I were to "go", wouldn't that be even more selfish after all that's happened?

Yep.

Damn! Why did I do what I did?!

But... I can't change it.

I have a few more car pushes in me, I think, and I need only a spit shine on my cowgirl boots. So I'm not giving up. I'm going to stay attentive, get fit, find and hold boundaries, and love H. I don't want to be foolish, but I also can't have any regrets.

I think the idea regarding the wedding ring is a good one and I appreciate Barnboy's thoughts as well as Sere's and LG's. What does anyone else think?

Thank you, V, for your thoughts. I have missed you.

Lots of good stuff -- indeed fantastic stuff among the boards, and I've only had time to glance at In Recovery. Other then Song For The Day, I don't think I've read much of anything in SAA. (Hi, Queenie, if you're reading. I'll get over there soon.) There is a lot of brilliance going on here.

And I'm finding it very difficult to keep up, let alone post. I'm hoping that while in beautiful Ann Arbor when it's only work and me alone in a hotel room, I'll be able to contribute to my friends as you have been doing for me. I've been pretty inwardly focused these last few weeks and haven't been there for others as I like to be.

But I will.

And I'll answer the questions here that I'm behind on too. And I'll be back when I can.

Thank you so much, everyone. So very very much.

Did you not think I was losing my mind when you read the one section of my 2nd post, OMG I just skimmed through it since I didn't edit ......
and somehow I lost a whole paragraph between copy and paste from word to here.

Have not been into the Bicardi so I can't even blame that.

I fixeder uped.

Morning L4

I keep seeing similarities beween your H and me. Keep posting because it makes me feel awfully guilty and makes me stop and think about why I won't relax, why I won't try so much harder to get close, why i look for excuses not to - when I do want to... my head does anyway.

Anyway, nuff 'bout me.

Hi V - miss ya

L4:

There is much to say. I don't have that much time.

You stated this:

I want to be forgiven by Flamingo as well. Its been over four years since D-Day. I DO NOT believe that she has ever forgiven me for my A.

I can be all the things she wants me to be, but I never expect to be forgiven for knifing her as bad as I have. Repeatedly, and with complete malice I used that knife on her. How can she forgive that?

She can't.

She can pick up her life from that point and move forward. And decide that today is a day to be happy. She is no longer living with the same man who did those things to her. She SEES that difference, and appreciates it. And it allows her to be with me still.

If your still the same ol' cheat'n L4, then Mr l4 is putting in time until he can GO. I don't know if your are our not. It seems to me, with what you have learned here at MB, that you NOT the same ol' L4. And you can only hope the Mr L4 see that.

Your description of him slowy warming back up to you seems to indicate that it IS making a difference. Its a long slow road.

And then about this:


This is the great wayward/betrayed divide. Your friends/family, will not critize your actions, because, well, its polite. Your momma always said if you can't say something nice... But for your husband? He is sitting there from the opposite side, and he is engedering sympathy for what he is facing. "Living with a cheater" is what he is facing. Until he decides to change that line of thinking your marriage will not improve. If you were hanging out with girlfriends who were telling you to go chat up that guy at the bar, they are NOT friends of the marriage. Whomever your hubby is talking to, is not a friend of the marriage, and if that is all he is hearing, then his recovery is going to be stunted. And maybe, that is ALL he wants to hear.

Because it comes down to that choice thing again. He can choose to talk to folks who will help him look at what he has, had, and might be. Or he can talk with folks that only provide him with negative responses. He might not have talked with anyone recently. He might have only talked to one person 10 months ago. You don't know. He's not offering up any info. But what is coming back to YOU, is that he ain't going to work it. And until that changes, your stuck.

Then we have this response to my statement about GOING.


Yes, there are all the things that keep us intertwined. Kids, Love, Stubborness, Desire, etc. All good and reasonable reasons to keep going on. And they all mean squat, if the other party isn't really interested in recovery, but in just keeping up appearances. You mention Man in Motion. He is deciding its time to ASK for more from his WW. Because status quo is no longer acceptable for him. Your asking your husband for MORE. There is nothing wrong with that. Some here may point out, becasue you cheated, you have no right to ASK for more. Yes, you do, you have all the right in the world to ask for more. And to strive for more. You also have the right to remove folks from your life who are opposed to moving forward., Those folks even have the right to exit your life if they don't agree with the road you are on. Life is choices. Lead, follow or get out of the way. L$ is leading many parts of this recovery. Hubby has to join in. If he doesn't, then choices will have to be made.

LG

The only thing I see differently from lousy on this , is the concept that your h is voluntarily exposing himself to the negative messages re being a doormat and remaining married to you, L4.
See, that message is virtually everywhere in our society. the concept of being a cuckold is welllentrenched in our culture and throughout history.
believe me, I've heard all the same stuff like that I must have been inadequate sexually as I could not keep my woman satsified etc. I think women heae something similar, the old not being able to keep your man happy deal.
Everywhere he turns, this message is there. It's in films like Bridges of Madison County and Waitress. he hears other guys in locker rooms bragging about cuckolding guys and what fools the Wws'clueless husbands are.It takes a tough guy to overcome this stuff that isall over the place.
So, a lot of what he is being exposed to is not his choice. I am not sure women understand just how humiliating this is for a guy.

Thanks for that Zelmo - I can understand that; but we will get back there (please)

Zelmo, a BS is a BS. It is just as humiliating for us BW's as it is for BH's, I promise you. I vividly remember the first few weeks and not wanting to venture out because I knew people would be thinking

1. She must be crap in bed
2. She must never give her H SF
3. She must be an absolute [censored] even if she pretends not to be
4. She must nag her H endlessly
5. She must be that awful that her H can't wait to get away from her
6. I bet he never really loved her
7. I bet he's only staying with her because of the kids
8. I bet he's only staying with her because he doesn't want to lose all his money
9. I bet he's busy planning his next A because once a cheater always a cheater

I could go on and on all night with a list of humiliations I felt and still to some extent feel. I know I am judged by everyone who knows us. I know there are those who think that I'm a fool for staying and think that I'm only staying for financial reasons, and I hate that people think that of me. I would only ever stay for good reasons and money is nowhere near good enough a reason to stay in a relationship.

I have to come to a stage where I have the maturity to say that the opinions of those who know nothing mean nothing. I have to get to a stage where I am comfortable living my life in the best way I know how to.

Dr H says that we are all capable of having an A. I do not think I would ever have an A but I respect Dr H enough to accept that I am capable of that and for this reason it is not only BB who has EP's. I live with my own EP'S too. Once I accept that, I can also accept what BB did and I can also take the journey of recovery with him. There for the grace of God go I.

I can honestly say that I would rather be a BS than a WS. I personally could not live with the guilt and shame of hurting so many people. That's just me. I'm not saying that feeling is universal, but I definitely feel that way even though I have endured incredible pain.

For me, loving BB was a choice I had to make after D-Day. Mr L4 has the same choice. It's up to him which way he goes and no-one will criticise him if he walks away from L4. He has the right to walk away and tell her that what she has done is too much to come back from.

I don't get the feeling that he wants that. I think he wants her but is afraid. What an awful place to be. I feel for him. If only he could talk to Mark or another recovered BH so that he could understand how possible it is to come back from this. Their recovery is so tantalisingly close that even I feel frustrated.

Mr L4 needs to make decisions, one way or the other. I just would like him to know that it is possible to forgive the unforgivable and to recover from the unrecoverable. I want him to know that the possibilities for his M are endless. I don't think he appreciates that.

L4, I can imagine that it would be hard to accept that your H may be there for the kids more than out of being smitten with you. I have felt "settled for", "second best" for many years myself, because like you said, sometimes things feel sincere, and sometimes they don't and I can't really know. And you know, L4, that's gone both ways here. I don't know if you ever feel like "there's gotta be more to life," too.

So what can we do, you know? We can still seek to understand, and live by our own values. I don't think that there's anything bad or wrong about it taking time to refill that Love Bank. You're doing the right things, right? Working your MB program?

I don't understand why Mr. L4 needs to make decisions, one way or another, today. I understand the need to stop the LBs, you have boundaries to protect you from the name-calling and such in the meantime, right L4? I thought this MB thing was about making decisions that we all are enthusiastic about, not deciding for someone else when they are supposed to be good and ready. How about calling the Harleys, to help you and your H get to what would make you all enthusiastic about this. Look at what a marriage that is special and meaningful would look like to both of you.

Just to clarify. I don't believe Mr L4 has to make any definitive decisions today about whether he recommits to L4 for the rest of his life.

I do however, think he needs to make some decisions about whether he is able to make an effort towards recovering. I think L4 needs some sign that he WANTS to recover rather than just going through the motions.

I understand that us BS's have every right to take our time to commit to recover but for L4, it has been a year and I think that maybe just putting on his wedding ring again or any other single thing he may want to do may be the one small decision that is needed to make progress.

Thanks for clarifying, Sere. I would like to know what Mr. L4 would say, but I'm guessing that he may well say that he *is* making an effort that he is enthusiastic about today. Isn't that how the magic works, taking new actions, and letting them change our thoughts over time?

Yes, I agree that neither gender has a monopoly on pain and humiliation.
My main point was that it is not neccessary for a BS to seek out folks who will be critical of the deciosn to stay and ridicule it. Those folks and society's message are everywhere.

I can see what you are saying NED, I'm certainly hoping that that is how the magic works on me,but my gut feeling is that he could still do a little tiny bit if he really is bothered about L4.

I think we have established that he wants to stay in the M at the mo. His actions and "enthusiasm about today" tell us that.

But I thnk it is about time that he showed L4 a sign that he wants to make a go of things with her - not just keep the M ticking along.

She is in a position to ask these things of her H (OandH) - and if she doesn't becasue she is worried about the reaction she might get(ie sulks, name calling) then I think L4 may need to question whether the control, direct or PA is abusive and if so it needs challenging.... respectfully of course.

This is an interesting point I think? At what stage should a WS expect the BS to actually invest in a true marital recovery?

I think Mr L4 has said something along the lines of "I'm here and that's all you can expect from me" at some point in the past. When does this become unacceptable?

Of course it takes time to work through such a devastating betrayal but how much time should a WS expect that it will take for a BS to actively engage in recovery rather than just be a physical presence in the house? When should L4 expect more rather than want more?

I'm not sure if I read what your top EN's were L4? How is your H doing at meeting them?

I think Dr H says something about a BS getting something out of holding on to the resentment of the A and using that resentment to control the WS. He advised the WS to let the BS know that what was done is in the past and that holding on to and venting the anger of it was ruining their love for the BS and it would no longer be tolerated.

It's a tough question for a WS to ask because they sure have a lot of making up to do but as I'm a BS I think I can legitimately ask how long should a BS hold the A over the WS's head as a punishment and reason for not investing in recovery?