Clarification. Your goal is not to be a "Giver". Not at all! That's what the Policy of Joint Agreement is supposed to stop: an out-of-control Giver.

Remember, the Giver wants to make someone else happy, regardless of how it makes you feel. The Taker wants to make you happy, regardless of how it makes anyone else feel. You can be Giver-ish in one relationship and Taker-ish in another at the same time. The goal of POJA is to make agreements that are acceptable to you both when you are in Intimacy or in Conflict, because married couples usually spend plenty of time in both.


So you've nailed two of his needs: Affection and Admiration. What are his other Top 3 needs? If he's a typical male, a few of Physical Attractiveness in his spouse, Recreational Companionship, Domestic Support, and Sexual Fulfillment are probably right up there.



New emails? So how long since he's been in contact with the other woman (or women)?

If he's still in an active affair, why are you still at home? Are you protected financially if you decide to go to Plan B?


Because he's an entitled, selfish wayward, and your feelings don't mean much to him right now. That can change, but it takes a lot of work.

Yes his other top three EN are SF, recreation and physical attractiveness. I have been working on all three. My SF is actually higher than his and so I don't feel like I get enough.

I found e-mails last week and that is when I exposed to everyone and so that is why I have asked for him to write a NC and he said he has but hasn't. That is one of my questions how long do you give someone to follow through on their statements. From the emails I could tell it hadn't got physical yet and I put a stop to it. He says it was just talk.

Also I feel like we are so far away from POJA.That is why I keep bouncing back and forth between conflict and withdrawl. I am leaning towards D but I have so much to take care of. I can't get into an IC until after the holidays due to my work schedule.

Right, this is typical wayward-speak:

"I've said goodbye once. I don't want to do it again."
"I have no feelings for X anymore."
"We're not in contact anymore. Writing a no-contact letter like you suggest would just re-open old wounds and create more drama."
"There is no affair."

They are all dodges to try to get out of doing what they need to do:
1. Your wayward spouse writes the no-contact letter.
2. The betrayed spouse reviews the letter to make sure it's appropriate (no expressions of love or "missing" them or even valuing the "relationship", just make sure it's something you can live with).
3. The wayward spouse revises the letter according to the betrayed spouse's expectations.
4. Once a suitable no-contact letter is crafted, the BETRAYED spouse sends the letter. This way you can be sure it is delivered, that the wayward has no opportunity to put something on there that says "my betrayed spouse wrote this", or other dodges.

That's the only way to do it right. Even the way my wayward spouse did it -- writing the no-contact email herself, sending it, and carbon-copying me -- left me with lingering resentment because of how the no-contact letter read so much like an "I'll cherish you forever" letter. Can't have that. Don't end up like I did... recovering and resenting even the no-contact letter.

He hasn't written a no-contact letter until YOU have seen it and sent it. Period.


Yep, so did my wayward. You sit down and help him craft that letter tonight. You're still in Plan A; until he goes to VERIFIABLE no-contact, treat this as an active affair.


Now that I understand you're working with an active wayward who is still trying to lie to you about it being over when it's not, I get it. Recovery and learning to live by the POJA cannot happen until verifiable no-contact is established. No-contact letter is Step 1, followed closely thereafter by Extraordinary Precautions to prevent recidivism as Step 2, and lots of ongoing snooping to watch your spouse closely, etc...

Have you read "Surviving An Affair" yet? It goes over all of this stuff.

If you feel that you are running out of love to give and possibly suffering psychological repercussions as a result of his ongoing affairs if he does not immediately write a suitable no-contact letter, going to Plan B or Plan D is understandable.

$200 for one session with the Harleys to get your head on straight might really be useful. It's just an hour out of your life.

If he will not IMMEDIATELY write AND MAIL the no contact letter, then that tells you that he:

Does not respect you at all
Does not love you
Wants to continue the affair
That the affair will get more serious
That he cares for the other woman more than you
That your feelings are unimportant to him
That he knows you will put up with ANY TREATMENT from him no matter how bad, so he does not make any attempt to change.

I would question what behaviors you have put up with from your husband through the years. And list all the bad behaviors of his you have lived with.

*Has he disrespected you and treated you badly throughout the marriage and you have ignored it?

This is exactly where I am at.
1. If you can not do the things I ask of you i.e. NC letter I am gone.

I am not allowing this again and so that is why I am trying to proceed with getting out of here. If I don't see any push behind the act then I have my answer. I just wish I could act now and instead I need to wait until a few things come to play. My biggest hurdle is finding an apartment where my DD won't have to change schools. Also financially it will be really tight.

You can do it TTBB!!!! it is worth it to get rid of a man who does not love nor respect you! You have a chance at a better life and someday perhaps......even share that life with a much better man!

I guess he just wants his cake and eat it too.

Do I tell him I am leaving or just leave when I can find the apartment?

In the meantime am I wrong for working on our marriage or just be polite and let him think I am working on our marriage?

If it were me I would let him think everything is ok, then leave when you want to. Or do it the other way. Who knows which is best. Whatever you do, whichever the way you do it, LEAVE HIM.

First thing I would do is make sure he can't take money out of the bank accounts. THEN find an apartment.

btw:
He has to write it and hand it to you so YOU can mail it.

My plan, because we know I need one.

Get through the holidays while continuing to go to they gym and eating right and trying to get enough rest.

Get into the IC as soon as holidays are over.

Continue to plan A until I have been giving a reason not to. If he does not write the NC proceed with plan D.

Continue to looke for an apartment and the day I move I will fix my finances.

Buy and read SAA and continue to work on me.
Pray, pray, pray.

@Tryingtobebetter One addition: set an end-date for Plan A now. Decide how long you can hold out psychologically; don't make the end-date of Plan A depend on him other than "if he ends the affair I do not go to Plan B".

...or Plan D, as the case may be.

Ok so what about this? After the holidays first of the year I end plan A and move to plan D.

I think I can stay in it that long and if he doesn't send NC I will definitely be able to move into plan D.

That should be plenty of time correct?

The amount of time is entirely up to you. It's all about how tough you are, and how long you can hold out.

Dr. Harley's guidelines, if he does not know someone, is to suggest around 6 months for a man, and 1 month for a woman, to Plan A. He isn't sure why it is, but most men seem to be able to tough out the extreme abuse of an ongoing affair without suffering severe psychological trauma -- like post-traumatic stress disorder -- than most women. Support from this board can help people maintain a longer Plan A. As can having support from a pro-marriage therapist.

In addition, most men are willing to "cake-eat" much longer than most women. So a long Plan A tends to lead to a happy cake-eating husband rather than a negotiated end to the extramarital relationship.

Anyway, all I'm saying is it's up to you. My start-date was August 1; my planned end-date was November 1. I know that I'm not tough enough to make it longer than that, and even a month of dealing with my cake-eating wife has left me with profound scars, bitterness, resentment, and sudden anxiety triggers around her that I now have to work through.

Well I think with the support from here I can give an end date of plan A to be 2-01-10, that is if he sends the NC. I don't know how long I can go if he doesn't send the NC.

That will give me some time in counseling and some time to get myself more healthy. Plus I can save some extra money for down the road.

Today I did a major LB and told him I want a divorce and told him I was moving out this week. He got all upset. He says when I say that to him it majorly hurts him and of course I said, and how do you think I feel after what you have done? I know this is where I still have a long way to go.

Mmm, you got it backwards. Your Plan A end-date is for if no-contact is NOT established. You follow through, independently, on your own, with your Plan B or D if he refuses to break it off with the other person.

If the wayward pledges no-contact, writes a no-contact letter, and commits to extraordinary precautions to protect your marriage, then there's no end-date in sight; you're working through recovery.

I strongly, strongly suggest reading through "Surviving An Affair". It has specific recommendations on dealing with serial affairs. Also a session with the Harleys would probably clarify a lot of your questions.

I have found myself a room and I just need to work some details out for getting my DD to school.

He has not written the NC and so I don't see that he is giving me any other choice but to go to plan D.

He is trying to prove it to me in every other way but the ones I ask. He doesn't think I have anywhere to go but he is wrong.

I'm having a real hard time being polite until I go. How do I not drop DJs and LBs until I go?

I found that I could deal with difficult people in my life by feeling sorry for them. I realized that, if someone has to do something bad - either to me or for themselves - then they are in a much worse place than I will ever be. That allows me to feel sorry for them, and stop hating them or being angry at them.

Thanks catperson that was excellent advice and noted. I will give it a shot.

It is pretty easy to feel sorry for a 41 yo man who has so many issues that he needs constant attention from everyone.

I do feel he has a bi-polar disorder. He once when in to get "checked" for it and told me that the doctor said he didn't have it but I wasn't there so I can't believe it.

@Tryingtobebetter: I let my FWW know in no uncertain terms, repeatedly, that all I required was that we send the other man a no-contact letter and follow through with no-contact-for-life, and join me in a program of marital recovery of my choice. If she just did those two things, we could begin recovering our marriage.

It took her a while, but she came around.

Be clear, if you do decide to move out, that those are the two things you'd need, and remain the two things you'd need. I would really suggest reading:
* Surviving An Affair
* Love Busters
* His Needs, Her Needs

Even if they don't salvage your marriage, you'll be a better spouse in the future for the reading.

Thank you Barnboy for the encouragment.

He told me he does not want me to move out. He actually gets very upset when I bring it up.

I told him for me to work on our marriage I need him to write the NC letter today. He told me he will do this when he is off work for the holidays. I said you are a very smart man and I know you know what needs to be done. But we will see.

I told him this is a deal breaker for me.

I think he thinks that if he treats me wonderfully and lovingly that I will just forget about it and that we can just mover forward. I told him I have to have this or I can't move forward.

I also am getting myself a Christmas present and ordering SAA. I also have an IC appointment.

I decided until I move out that I will continue to Plan A and snoop. With my snooping I have noticed that there hasn't been anymore contact but I am going to check further. I did get an email from OW and she told me "to leave her alone, and that she doesn't want anything to do with me or my husband," blah blah blah.