One other thought before I forget....there is a very good chance work will tell me not to contact her H anymore so as not to "create dissension in the workplace". How do I respond to that if it is presented as a direct instruction?

Velvet

Melody

He used to work there but retired.

I think there is still good reason to expose there. He will not like that former coworkers no about this, nor will she.

I have never spoken about this to anyone at work. I believe contrary to what she and my H believe that many people are aware of their A. First, because its almost impossible to keep stuff like that secret. Second, because I know she told at least one of her friends and her BS contacted a coworker to identify my H in a pic from his PI. The odds those people have told no one are slim to none imo.

Also, she is using work email and time to continue her intrusions into our marriage. The email she used to make first contact this time actually contained a trail of other peoples emails regarding a security breach that is currently under investigation. Unethical disclosure of confidential info to someone with no need to know. One of her hooks with my H has always been bringing peyton place type stuff to him for his entertainment. She has access to a lot of it because of her position and she lives for drama.

Finally, in her last verbal assault on me she was all about threatening to "tell everyone the truth"......"all your buddies will know". Back to her BS, he told someone I did nothing about his first discovery of their A because I didnt want anyone to know about it.

I am a very private person at work. But, none of that is true. I believe its her projection onto me and of her own fear/embarassment of people knowing for sure rather than speculating.

Work is a huge toxic mess of this kind of peyton place stuff. No surprise she is frequently in the middle of it advising people, using her position to tell them to stop talking about it, covering up for potential harassment situations for her buddies etc.

She is also very prideful and has an overinflated opinion of herself with regard to how people view her and how much respect she commands.

Her telephonic harassment of me was illegal in this state and violates our stated ethics policies both with regard to commiting illegal acts and harassing a coworker. Not to mention she has my home number by virtue of her position.

I believe she will harass me again. Mainly, because I think she did it both out of her on rage and also as an act for her BS to convince him she wanted to stay married. He had an open divorce filing at that time. Settling it if he went forward was and still will cost her a six figure sum and a drastic reduction in her desired std of living unless she finds a replacement husband.

Sorry so long, just trying to add some context.

Velvet

My Conditions

1. You must want to reconcile our marriage and join me in doing the necessary work to turn that desire into reality.

2. Establish formal no contact for life with OW.

3. Full, voluntary, cooperative transparency with me regarding computer, email, phone for as long as I need it to regain trust in you.

4. Return to your counselor to address whatever personal issues have led you to risk our marriage by resuming contact with OW.

5. Join me in marriage counseling with a counselor of my choice.

6. Remain vigilant in your successful efforts to deal with me in ways that are respectful and not abusive.

7. Rejoin me in our home rather than this half-baked living arrangement we have now.

8. Work with me in full partnership to restore our home to a condition necessary for resale so we are ready to move forward to the next phase of our lives. (I realize this is a huge, daunting issue for you. I do not and never have expected you to shoulder it alone. I will be by your side.)

9. If the steps above do not relieve the boredom, loneliness and ennui that lead you to risk our marriage with inappropriate interactions with other women, you need to be proactive in finding appropriate activities that do.

Comments appreciated.

Velvet

A quick (sorry, it's late) patchwork.

Fred

Thanks.

The abuse thing. I dunno. He knows what his responsibility is with regard to this. He's doing it. I'm just telling him keep doing same.

The reason I put it in is I know this is going to trigger his abuse issues big time. Im just reminding him that is deal breaker number one over and above everything else.

Regardless if its rational or not, he is going to feel betrayed by this. Thats going to trigger his abuse issues. Thats going to trigger that rage. Thats going to trigger his desire to abuse/control me when I refuse to negotiate outside of these conditions being met.

Anyone has suggestions for rewording let me know. I cant reword now, will sleep on it.

His boredom, etc usually happens during the day when I am at work or late night when he cant sleep, he has insomnia. Why do WE need to do this.

Thanks for the input.

Velvet

Pepper

Going back to how many strikes he has. Hes out and I think he knows it. I think thats part of why he lied today. He told me first time and again today he could never face me again if he had contact with OW. He's waiting for my wrath. Waiting to see if its blown over, or if theres more. He knows I can maintain. He knows the odds are good Im on to him and theres more to come.

He's in his cave, huddled under blankets because hes oh so sick...hee hee. Also, trying to drum up sympathy with his lack of sleep due to his insomnia. Building an excuse for his inappropriate and "impulsive" response to OW email which he now hugely regrets. I actually think he does regret it and may be pulling himself back from it. At least he cant use the contacted OW while I was sleep walking due to Ambien excuse now since he kicked his addiction to that.

His dreams are haunting him(I will post those later for the sheer entertainment value) and telling him what he needs to do, but hes not thinking really imo so he doesnt know what to do next. He's just waiting to see if the s**t hits the fan and how much of it lands on him.

In the meantime, hes trying to buy insurance by being very loving to me.

Velvet

Pepper

BTW thanks for the link on boundaries. Read through half of it. Think I will have to read several times to sort it out.
I'm very tired and having trouble taking it all in right now.

I know this is a huge issue for both of us. I know all this stuff and am actually really good with defining and maintaining my boundaries in most of my life except with H. Not sure why it is so much harder with him.

Velvet

I agree and Ive said it before myself without saying its the worst kind. I dont find it useful to say what kind of abuse is worse because they are all horrible and soul destroying especially when they are habitual.

The difference imo is that with verbal, emotional or physical abuse, the abuser employs inappropriate means to control someone else in order to make themself feel powerful and relieve their own internal pain or offload their own internal rage. Their is an intentional direction of the abuse at the victim.

I dont see his adultery exactly the same although the end result is that it does feel abusive. I guess the element Im missing is that I dont see it as an attempt to control me.

Not sure the distinction matters. In any case, I stand by the fact that he has been able to stop the things that are classically considered as abuse and it is very rare that most men who abuse even try to stop unless they are court directed. Even when they try the success rate is abysmal.

All I was trying to say is that I am not living on hope and faith. I know that he has the self discipline to stop the adultery if he wants to and makes a choice to do so. He needs more help to get there.

We screwed up and tried to skip necessary steps we didnt want to deal with or didnt think we needed to. I am as guilty as he is.

I am still trying to understand why we did this especially myself. I was so relieved to know there was a reason underneath all this that made sense to me. That made me too eager to latch onto the idea that resolving his own abuse issues which were at the root of him abusing me would resolve everything else. Much to think about here.

Velvet

Well I really dont need intel on my H to know that something is going on. Listen to his dreams.

This weekend:

This is recurrent btw. He dreams about a work work around that he did over 20 years ago that may or may not have been exactly kosher to do being discovered. Then his old pals from the internal investigation function turn up to ask him about it.

The night he contacted OW:

His sister appeared in his dream to ask him if he had any drugs and to tell him he needs to get rid of them. Then she went to his favorite room(which is also where much of his abuse took place) and started watching tv. He followed her to ask her what she meant. Sis told him she just wanted to make sure he was ok.

last night when he again emailed OW:

his favorite uncle, his aunt and another uncle showed up just to ask him how he was doing and then they left. Also said something about a computer which he didnt remember.

He said the dreams were so vivid and so real he felt he needed to call his sister and his cousins(the uncles/aunt are deceased).

He also told me he thought he might have a brain tumor due to all these dreams. Hmmmm....H is a bit of a hypochondriac but thats a little much even for him.

Guilty conscience anyone?

But it is an attempt to destroy you, so it sorta falls in the control category. Did you see the recent thread where a betrayed wife hung herself? Adultery is so painful that some people have nervous breakdowns or kill themselves or others. The reason Dr Harley developed Plan B was because so many people in his care were having nervous breakdowns from enduring affairs. Dr. Harley, who is a clinical psychologist that specializes in adultery, puts it this way:

here

This morning Im having trouble wrapping myself around going straight to Plan B.

It feels like I am about to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

It feels unfair. Its going to blindside my H. He's going to feel betrayed. Its going to destroy his trust in me.

Never mind that he has done the same thing now himself. I set us up for this.

I was arrogant to think I could lead us out of this alone.

I agreed to disagree that this wasnt even really an A because we were separated and I wasnt talking to him. I know thats ridiculous. But, I let him get away with it because I didnt want to do the hard work we needed to do anymore than he did. It was easier to wipe the slate clean and start over.

Now I am full of resentments that my efforts to sneak the work in when he's receptive have not worked and why would they have. No wonder I have been feeling borderline depressed for the last few months.

I dont feel right with Plan B. It feels like I should sit down and have an honest conversation with him first. I cant get clear. I need to get clear before I decide.

Velvet

> Its going to destroy his trust in me.


In YOU?

Hello?

BTW: do you realize that everything you wrote in the above post was written in FEAR of him?

Dealan-de

I dont know if its fear of him. True I dont expect him to react well initially.

I just cant shake the feeling that this is the wrong thing to do as my next step.

This is going to echo every trauma he and we have for him. Its going to test everything he has. I shouldnt be testing him, I should have been talking to him.

Thats part of our core issue even before any A ever took place.

I dont know. I have to get more clearheaded before I act.

Can you say more about why you said what I wrote was in fear of him?

Velvet

Are all words he will use to justify his contact and place blame back on you. You are doing his job for him.

OK, I agree he will do that or find some other way to blameshift or avoid responsibility at least initially.

I am clear enough that I know I will not accept that from him whatever shape or form he delivers it in.

That still does not ease my mind. I was wrong in the way I approached this reconciliation. That doesnt excuse his failures. I know that.

Why cant I just sit down with him, say this is not working, have a civil conversation spelling out my conditions and also that I know hes been in contact with OW. Why cant I just give him a chance to step up to the plate and do this the way we should have before I just unilaterally decide to Plan B and go no contact?

It just feels like I will be cutting off my nose to spite my face. What is the harm in one conversation? He will either step up or not. There is no inbetween now and if he doesnt I can still Plan B.

Velvet

>Why cant I just sit down with him, say this is not working, have a civil conversation spelling out my conditions and also that I know hes been in contact with OW. Why cant I just give him a chance to step up to the plate and do this the way we should have before I just unilaterally decide to Plan B and go no contact?

No one has said you can't.

OK. I know I can.

I read everyone who has responded to mean I shouldnt.

Are you saying you think its ok if I try to do that before I Plan B.

Sorry if I am being obtuse.

Velvet

Define okay.

I think that this man has had a lifetime of actions without consequences....but YOU are the one that has to live with that, not me.

Dealan-de

I was just trying to clarify whether you meant I shouldnt have that conversation with him before moving straight to Plan B.

Its a moot point now, because I had it.

I called him. He asked how I was. I said not ok. Told him I knew he had contact with OW. He of course denied. I simply said not going to debate that, I know what I know.

Back to Im not ok with it. Told him what we are doing is not working. I cant live with him having contact with OW.

He admitted he did. Said it was only email and phone call and she invited him to lunch but he didnt go. He doesnt want to be with her, cant see himself ever with her. The thought of being naked with her makes him sick. She was his friend and he was happy to hear from his friend and know she wasnt mad at him. He's been so lonely, bored, isolated, down, not feeling well...it was only a fifteen minute call mainly about work drama and when he got off the phone he felt some relief from his feelings.

Told him of course you did, your affair with her is an addiction and you got a fix. Some back and forth on this. Told him any professional that understands A would tell him so. He conceded he could see some validity to that but would have to think about it.

I told him I was heart broken and devastated and could not live with him keeping OW in his life in anyway. At that point, he realized Ive skipped work for 3 days over this not because I am sick even though I am nursing a horrid cold.

Told him if he was choosing to stay in contact he was choosing to end our M. He got hostile here saying I couldnt tell him who he could talk to. He didnt need this crap. Blah Blah. I said, Youre right, I cant control who you talk to you have to decide to do that yourself if you want to stay married to me.

He said, he already chose me. Hes been good blah blah. He wants to spend his life with me. He sees our life together in our new home.

I said, I agree we had made a lot of progress but it wasnt enough and we werent going about it the right way. We need help and we need to do things differently.

He asked what I wanted to do. I told him my conditions.

He didnt react to the first two...must want to reconcile and do the work and establish formal NC with OW.

Everything else he got ansy, reactive, defensive, couldnt do or couldnt see himself doing. Cant deal with counseling. Joint counseling has always been a disaster for us(this is true), we wouldnt agree about them, they would favor one over the other, etc.

The house is overwhelming to him. Hes afraid I will throw him out again if I get mad or have him arrested. Told him no one would be arrested unless there was a crime committed. Said he doesnt trust me.

Asked him what he needed to be able to trust me. He didnt know. Asked him what he thought we should do, he didnt know he has to think about it.

Think there was some more hostility expressed, old stuff I declined to get into telling him we needed to go there with a counselor if he wanted to go there.

Told him this has been going downhill for the last 5 months because of his first break in NC with OW and all that resulted in. Repeated we have to do something different.

Told him I was at the point where I had to protect myself from more of this pain. He took that to mean a divorce and went off on me for a minute about threatening him and told me fine leave him alone. Told him I wasnt threatening him, I didnt want a D, I wanted him to join me in doing what we needed to do to fix our marriage.

I started crying then. Told him there was no other option at this point unless we wanted to throw our marriage away.

He took over the conversation at that point. Calmed himself down. Mostly I just listened. A lot of how he couldnt deal with all this stuff. Didnt understand why he did what he did but it was meaningless and he loves me and wants the life together that we have planned.

Talked about our trust issues. Talked about intimacy. Some discussion about how lies and secrets erode the kind of intimacy that he wants. How I need to feel safe with him in order to be vulnerable enough to him to achieve that.

This was a very good part of the convo. He was in the mode where he is listening/taking in what I say. The mode where he respects how smart I can be and takes notes to go back and think it through himself.

Forgot, re some of my conditions(NC) and some of the other info I got in, he wanted to know who I was talking to. Was it my "online buddies". Told him I was getting help. He got mad about that but then backed down.

Other than a few places we had a civil convo. He got out of bounds a few times, but I could hear him getting control of himself. I was in control other than crying briefly.

We were both exhausted and I'm sure I've left something out, but I know when I've reached his verbal limit. There was lots of foggy thinking from him. But also good stuff. He knows we have to do something different. He said he needed to take a break. He needs to think about everything we talked about and what I asked him for. I agreed he should do that.

He made a joke at the end and told me he loved me.

What he will do next, I dont know, but its up to him.

Velvet