arkhawk,
sorry your're here. this is my first post to you.

You asked if Plan B ever saves a marriage. It can, but your question is irrelevant at this point. You have two options now: Plan B or Plan D, period. Plan B may or may not save your marriage. Plan D will end your marriage and cancels out ever getting to try Plan B.

Plan B, if that is your choice, must be by the MB book, dark, serious, and unwavering. She will never be aware of what needs you've been meeting for her until she has to live without you. And she will never learn respect for you if you let her run the show.

Plan D: I agree with FredinVA. I would not file for divorce until your time limit for Plan B has run its course. Even then, I think I'd leave it up to her to file. Would love to see the 'grounds' she lists for that.

For what it's worth, my FWH said he would never have had the guts to initiate divorce; he just 'assumed' I would be the one to do it and secretly he was counting on it.

I don't know that my wife thinks clearly when she is out of the fog. I think she was born with the fog of unrealistic expectations of marriage, fueled by movies like the Notebook.

ark, I would strongly suggest that you do BOTH, file for divorce and go into Plan B. File for divorce so that you can protect yourself legally and then drag it out for the duration of the Plan B. If she comes around in that 2 years, you can drop the divorce action. You have nothing to lose by filing for divorce now while you are in the best legal position to maintain your home and custody of your kids.

But you won't get her out of the house any other way, I suspect. Its doubtful you could a) get her out of the house and b) protect yourself legally without filing. By filing, and Dr Harley does recommend this when going into Plan B, you have a strategic advantage because of her affairs.

Once she is out of the house, you can then go into Plan B. IMO, you have nothing to lose, and everything to GAIN by filing for divorce NOW. You can file, drag it out, and then if she doesn't come around in 2 years, just finalize the divorce. If she does come around, you can simply drop the divorce.

Ark,

Plan B has as it's GOAL the preservation of any energy and love the BS has left for the WS who has been abusing him/her.

That's what it is supposed to do.

That is really ALL it is supposed to do.

Saving the marriage then becomes a matter of waiting to see if the WS ends the affair, agrees to the terms of the Plan B set up at the time of its inception and is willing to work at reconciliation.

It removes the BS from the hurt, pain, drama and abuse of the affair while waiting to see if it will be statistically typical or an outlier. The majority of affairs burn out and die a natural death within about two years. Some last a little longer, some go down in flames much sooner. Those that last longer than two years might never really end, usually in part because the WS feels that too many bridges have been burned in order to return to the marriage.

This, BTW is why a good Plan A is necessary before going into a dark as a moonless stormy night on the bayou. It shows the willingness of the BS to work on solving the problems in the relationship before stepping away to wait.

That's all Plan B is for, Ark. Waiting to see how long the affair lasts. It MIGHT hasten its demise by forcing the affair partner to meet all of the ENs of the WS, and for the WS to begin to miss the BS but it is really only supposed to let you keep enough in the tank to start the recovery if it ever gets a chance to begin.

If you Plan A too long, you lose whatever love and respect you might have had for the WW and she will not be someone you want any more when her affair crashes and burns, which it will do eventually. The separation allows you to begin to heal personally so that you are well enough to help heal the marriage when the time comes.

Sometimes, especially for real cake eaters, Plan B forces a choice be made and especially with kids involved it can be the history coupled with a great Plan A that can cause the affair to implode almost at once. But Dr Harley says you should be ready to wait two years before pulling the plug completely. Two years is not a magic number or anything it simply gives enough time for all but statistical outliers to end.

Dr H does NOT suggest waiting forever, because THAT would be unfair to expect and would probably be a sign of mental illness at some point.

The whole point is that YOU are in control of YOUR life. You can't control your WW, but YOU get to decide what YOU will do and when YOU will do it. The affair killed your respect for her. Plan A too long and you'll lose your self respect as well. Go to Plan D right away and you might find yourself wondering if you did the right thing 10 years from now. If she's worth a Plan A, she's worth waiting a while at least to see if she can extricate her head from her butt. If the marriage was a crisis center training mission to begin with, then Plan D might be the way to go.

YOU get to decide when YOU are done wanting to try to save your marriage...Not her, your friends, people here on MB, her family, your family or the guys at work...You work Plan A to the hilt and SHOW her what a marriage to you can be. If you wait long enough the affair will end. If it ends soon enough she might try to return and if you have enough left to give it a try, you might just make it through recovery intact, healed and with a marriage that will make you both happy.

No warranty , express or implied is assured is given by this author and nothing can ensure the personal outcome of this process. (Sorry, used my best joke this morning on Other Topics)

Mark

Plan B does sound like a great relief, but so does plan D.
I'm gonna go see my lawyer again this week to get some more legal advice.

What is the strategic advantage of filing during her affair? I was told as long as the kids aren't in harm's way, adultery doesn't matter. The divorce courts aren't there to punish the parents but to look out for the best interests of the children (which usually means having both parents in their lives). Although...the waywards are terrible parents, at least mine has been.

It is not either OR, though. You don't have to choose one or the other, you can do BOTH. If you file for D, you will have legal protection in place. I thought you were in Oklahoma, where evidence of adultery is useful? Even so, you do need some legal rememdies to protect you financially and to arrange custody issues.

Will your wife leave if you ask her?

Even though I've been through this before, I'm trying to understand what state my wife is in.

A quick rundown of the last year.
-asked for divorce in Jan09, couldn't stand to be around me, left all the time, would not talk with me - started Plan A
-discovered affair, she tried NC but failed a lot
-after NC established, bad withdrawal symptoms
-after withdrawal, fog lifts some, committed to improving marriage
-pretty good effort at recovery

-4 months later, asked for divorce again-won't talk to me, leaves all the time, sad
-said she's always been unhappy, wanted divorce for a long time, will never be happy with me, attempted recovery helped her realize that
-discovered she had been seeing another guy (she claims its different, just friends, but she was sneaky about it, lied about it and obviously would like more to come from the relationship) so I would call it an EA - by her own admission, they had an emotional connection
-I immediately exposed, drawing her wrath
-Now she is sad all the time, avoids me, says she is not talking with him

Not sure if this is withdrawal. I don't see much fog lifting yet, it has been 2 weeks of NC if she is truthful - she calls from work and I have no access to their phone records

Should I execute plan B now or see if the fog will lift with NC? If I go Plan B, she will start talking with him again, I'm sure. I am in no hurry. If she could just witness how pathetic she is, then this would end.

arkhawk, I'm of the opinion that people who have affairs are like people who drive drunk and get DUIs.

One is a wake-up call. More than one indicates a serious problem.

Around here we talk about boundaries: having them, protecting them, monitoring them.

Drunks who refuse to own up to their drinking problem wind up with multiple DUIs. If they're lucky. Some wind up driving and killing someone (and/or themselves). I feel the same way about people who have multiple affairs. They have something awry with their "wiring."

This is not to say recovery isn't possible for drunks and waywards. It's just to say that they have denial systems a lot stronger than the person who screws up once, realizes their mistake, and takes precautions to have it never happen again.

I applaud you for wanting to work on your marriage and make things work. From what you've said about your wife, I think you have a gargantuan task ahead of you. I wish you well.

I often wonder what advice I'd give to myself if I were in a neutral position. My guess is that I'd say get out, run away as far as you can.

I sometimes think that maybe I am that battered spouse who keeps hanging around, taking the abuse, thinking she can change her spouse. That makes me embarrassed of myself. I'm trying to exhaust all options, for my kids and for my ability to forgive myself later in life.

My wife had a horrible childhood. I'm no psychiatrist but I think maybe she looks for a spouse to fill voids in her life that I can't possibly fill. She's in therapy, but sometimes I doubt whether the MB principles will work with her. Or maybe I just neglected her too long. ???

My wife had a horrible childhood, too (check my story if you want details). Unfortunately, serious childhood problems can ingrain themselves in a person's psyche, which turns them into people with personality disorders.

I'm convinced my wife is one of them. Check out Zelmo's story if you want an extreme example of this.

Sadly, people with Cluster B personality disorders (narcissism, borderline, histrionic, antisocial) are very difficult to treat. Mostly because they don't believe they have a disorder and usually refuse treatment.

A book left behind by my wife, "Borderline Personality Disorder - Struggling, Understanding, Succeeding," by Colleen E. Warner, Psy.D., details the difficulty in treating such people. It's not for the faint-of-heart. Even for professionals!

My stbxW is in a never-ending cycle due to her disordered belief system. She enters a relationship because of the strong emotional attachment first felt at the beginning. But when the relationship matures and no longer fulfills her need for the "newness" she quits and seeks it elsewhere. She is forever looking for the "high" of the "new relationship." There is no Plan in MB that can overcome an addicted or disordered person.

I'm not saying your wife fits this mold. But there were folks on here who strongly urged me to consider the possibility. And the more I researched, read and studied, the more I came to realize that I had gotten myself entangled with a woman whose past is larger than anything I can do to resolve.

My wife is not antisocial. Just the opposite, always seeking friends and acceptance, often at the expense of those who really love her like her family.

But what you say about needing the newness of a relationship and the strong emotional connection is dead on! I've known several others who had wives that did the same thing. Most of them never found the happiness they sought and are on marriage #3 or 4 now. That has me worried I may be wasting my effort.

Arkhawk, please don't assume you know what "antisocial personality disorder" is before you research it. Many of these disorders are poorly named, or have some stigma attached to them by their Hollywood overuse.

From the site, RealMentalHealthDoes that sound like someone "antisocial?" But that's just part of the description. These disorders are complex, and often co-morbid (co-existing; a person with one may exhibit traits of another).

Again, I'm not saying your wife is disordered. I'm not even qualified to diagnose my own wife! But given her history and behavior, I think it behooves you to study and learn for yourself. You may be doing yourself a very great favor!

Your WW and my WW sound like they could be long lost sisters... I feel that my WW has completely unrealistic expectations of love and marriage, which contributed to her saying things like, you are a great guy...I just am not in love with you. She makes comments like I want to feel loved and adored, I want romance, and on and on. She is in love with being in love...but that infatuation phase is not real love. That is a major problem in my opinion.

We were on the verge of divorce. She cut off ties with OM yesterday, so her NC is very fresh. Many have told me that she is broken beyond repair. However, I am willing to give her a chance. But she is the one that needs to prove to me she has changed. She needs to do the hard work. I will give this a chance, but not more than once. I was on the brink of divorce and actually looking forward to the feeling of relief. But I owe it to my children to give her a chance to prove she is serious about changing.

We are both in a terrible position. Nobody wants to be divorced, especially when kids are involved. But I would take that any day over being in an abusive, one-sided relationship.

Fred, you are right. I'm no psychiatrist so thanks for pointing that out. I was just starting to research your book when you posted. My wife is in constant need of change. Never finishes anything, just moves on to the next project/job. She's held a job for a year, but I believe only because the job is constantly changing with different projects. She is definitely easily bored and never planning for the future.

Ed, your WW sounds like mine. Loves the Hollywood infatuation phase of a relationship but isn't willing to put up with commitment. As my wife said "I shouldn't have to try to love you or choose to love you, it should just be there. You should sweep me off my feet whenever you walk into the room."

Ed, I will attest that after my wife's first affair, no contact was incredibly important. I struggled for a long time waiting for the fog to lift (she was involved with a married man 15 yrs older who was an alchoholic). The reason it didn't lift was because she was breaking no contact for 3 months-just talking on the phone with him kept her foggy. Finally, when she stopped talking to him, I knew, because withdrawal set in. Then, she realized what she had done and no longer cared for him the way she had.

If your wife maintains no contact, I am going to bet you will see a change in her thinking, although it will get worse before it gets better. During withdrawal, my wife cried for weeks because she couldn't talk to her "best friend". That, too, passed. Even though it seemed like an eternity, it was really about 2 months. Then she was willing to work on our marriage.
Unfortunately, guy #2 showed up during recovery and she fell into the same trap. Hopefully, that doesn't happen to you.

I'm glad you pointed me in this direction, Fred.

My wife exhibits A LOT of the tendencies of a histrionic with some coexisting traits of the other Cluster B disorders.

Not a lot of good news on that front, though. Doesn't seem like there is much of a fix for it.

Nope, I'm afraid you're right, arkhawk. The "fix" seems to be putting a lot of distance between oneself and the disordered.

Another grand use of Plan B.

I was greeted this morning with "So you think I have a personality disorder?". She had been looking at my browser history. I told her I wasn't qualified to say if she did or didn't. I was just looking.

Then she looked at the histrionic's profile and I could tell, after initial denial, some things really hit home with her. She quickly left to go to a friend's house.

I don't know if she has that or not, but if she does-it's too bad.

It is what it is, arkhawk. If she's disordered, recognizes it and wants help for it, she'll be in a very small minority.

If she is and doesn't want help for it, then both of you at least have had your eyes opened.

And if she isn't, you've shaken her up a bit by your suspicion that she's out of her mind (which she is).

A love buster? I think not, since you answered in a non-judgmental way.

Ir will be interesting to see which way she goes with this. That is, if she even remembers it (waywards are v-e-r-y foggy...).

She is in therapy now. Said she'd bring it up to the doctor, but I could tell she was very hurt at the potential truth in it. I'm sure she'll find every way to combat the diagnosis.

I think it was a love buster. She is very angry (in withdrawal now) and she just used this as a way to blame me. I didn't do anything wrong, but not in her mind. I'm sure her friend will get her even more lined up against me.

That's ok though, I'm getting ok with the Plan B now.