I do not think you are that far wrong. And what are the good qualitites about your wife that makes you want marriage at any price>?

We only hear the bad, not the good.

Also, I missed this:

What are your ages and how long have you been married?

It sounds as if her behavior has been like this for your entire marriage. Was she like this before you were married? Were you engaged long? Did you live together beforehand? If she was like this before, then why did you marry her? Did you think she would be different?

A little bit of back story would be helpful.

In one of your first posts, you said that she is not committed and never has been. So what makes this marriage at all? Especially if it's been like this since day one.

Is it marriage because two people said some specific words? Words don't make a marriage, actions do, in my book. Any idiot can say the vows and be incapable of actually living them, or unwilling. If part of her was unwilling when you got married, that would explain a lot. Sounds to me as if she has some root issues that are getting in the way of being able to live the words.

And if that's the case, it's something that only she can fix. This nothing you, me, or Dr. Harley can do to "make" her do the work it would take. She needs to make her own choices (withdrawl) and hit her own bottom.

It also looks to me that her actions, especially how she pushes you away with anger, may be a way that she is dealing with unrecognized guilt. Over what, none of us can guess, and it's her business, not yours. But I know when I have unrecognized guilt, I lash out. In fact, feelings of anger at other people are a huge red flag for me to start examining my own conscience and become aware of what is really driving my rage . . . anger at myself for something either truly wrong, or something I percieve as wrong that I need to correct my thinking about.

In a case like yours, I think it's best for us to look at ourselves in the mirror and ask some really tough questions. Why did I marry this person in the first place? If I didn't know she was like this, what character defects IN ME prevented me from seeing this outcome?

I suspect that in many ways she DOES feel "safe" with you. She knows she can lash out at you and LB all she wants because you are not willing to divorce her. (You've made that pretty clear to us!) The fact that she is accusing you of abandoning her is just her fear talking . . . not fear that you will really leave, but fear that you will actually stay, and she will have no justification for the way she is behaving. She is pushing you away, and as long as you react by withdrawing or respond by enforcing your boundaries she will use it as justification. Justifications are the lies we tell ourselves so we can sleep at night, they are what protect us from our hidden feelings of guilt that we can't face.

Hurt people hurt people. You can't save her. She must save herself.

Before I can deal honestly with other people I must first be rigorously honest with myself. Looking at all the hidden motivations for trying to control what is not my business to control. I once made a list of all the things I have no power over and picked about 10 of them to journal about, focued on answering this question: how has trying to control FILL IN THE BLANK made my life unmanageable? Go deep and you get some amazing self-awareness. Real honesty.

Once I have honesty with myself I can begin to be honest with other people. That's intimacy. What the other person chooses to do with my honesty is their business. I can make a request. The other person can say no. I can ask the other person to suggest a solution. Then I can offer solutions. If the other person won't meet my request or suggest a solution, I can meet the need for myself. If I keep going back for more time and time again with the same result, I have no reason to expect change and I can make a choice to live with it or not.

A lot of people stay married because they believe it's the "right" thing to do. It may very well be, but it's important to remember that many people do the "right thing" for the "wrong reason."

Markos...

I realize that you can't change this, and I realize her stance on counseling, but what were her formative years like? Did she grow up in a big family or with controlling parents? Just wondering.

I am trying to wrap my mind around she's against you calling a coach like the Harleys on your own to get help with your half of the marriage, but she's enthusiastic about you stepping out. That "suspension of disbelief" thing. Can you help me understand?

I can't believe I hear leaving her mentioned as an option.

I'm married to her! Not just living together to see if we like it. I vowed "till death do us part."

You wouldn't suggest that I forsake my wedding vows and commit adultery as a response to all I've told you, would you? How can you suggest that I forsake my wedding vows and leave my wife?

Seems to me that suggesting people pursue their own happiness at any cost, regardless of the pain they cause to the people in their lives, even to the point of betraying their wedding vows, is never good advice and a recipe for some pretty psychopathic people.

How could I ever offer my wife enough security to be in love with me if I'm not the kind of person who will keep my wedding vows? Entertaining the suggestion of leaving sounds like the biggest love buster I can imagine, so I hope everyone will understand why I react so strongly against it.

You're right that you're hearing mostly bad, and little good (although if you'll read I have said a couple of good things). You're seeing us at a bad moment right now. But when things are good, and things have been very, very good for the last several months, she makes me feel like I am on top of the world and could conquer anything. I enjoy being with her like noone else. The trips we take, the dates we have, all of them are wonderful. She is a brilliant thinker and puts everyone I know to shame.

Plus, she's adorable.

She does love me, and she has come a LONG way toward being able to work on our marital problems. That means everything in the world to me. Right now I have hope that if we can get past the current bump we can get moving again [while I'm mindful that we have issues we have let fester too long, and I'm chomping at the bit to finally take care of them in a way that builds love]. A year ago I wouldn't have had such hope. The road was all bumps. She did all that for me, at great personal cost to herself.

Awesome perspective Markos and remember it's "progress not perfection" that we are striving for.......

No, she wasn't enthusiastic about me leaving. I shouldn't have done that.

So last night I told her so, and asked for her forgiveness.

markos, is this how you would react if your W said something like this? Because seriously, you found a negative in something positive and ran with it. I didn't think Bubbles was suggesting at all that you consider divorce, just that you state what's good about your marriage. Bubbles may not have said it in the perfect way, but c'mon.

Seriously, I think you should consider how sensitive you are to what your W is telling you. Reactions to her like this are going to make her feel unsafe, and not want to talk about things for her own protection.

Also, I agree with you that your commitment should be solid, the foundation of your marriage, but it does not make a good marriage in and of itself. People don't feel loved just because of the commitment, if they get the sense that they feel trapped by the promise, it's not love at all. Staying with someone just because it's the right thing to do, does not make one feel loved. I'm not suggesting you're taking your W for granted just because you feel that the commitment locks her in, I'm just saying...

No, she wasn't enthusiastic about me leaving. I shouldn't have done that.

Markos...I don't think there's anything wrong with removing yourself from the presence of another person who is verbally abusing you, but it's a bit extreme to leave the house unless she is badgering you room to room and there is no recourse.

Most people - men or women, imo, have a basic fear of being abandoned or someone important giving up on them - even when they're at their worst - and they know you have good reason. Sometimes I think it's a test. I don't know if they don't think they deserve to be loved or what it is. Sad.

Also, when you do leave the room in the midst of verbal abuse, try telling her why you're ending the conversation, where you're going, and when you'll be back. This sends a message that her tone and choice of words are not acceptable but that you aren't abandoning her or giving up. (You'll be back so that she can try again.) Rinse and repeat. "The shouting is not something I'm willing to talk above. I'm going to take a shower, but I'll be back and I'd like to try this conversation again."

As condescending as it sounds, it's actually sort of like training a child who has tantrums to communicate in a healthier way. If a person wants to be heard badly enough, they'll acquiesce, and most people do want to be heard.

And it's very important that once you have someone who is talking in a normal tone and not verbally abusing anymore that you communicate respectfully. This helps send home the message that they got it right. Eye contact, listening, nodding, validating, mirroring...

Spent all morning thinking seriously about all those who suggested the possibility of leaving, and I was responding to all of them.

I don't see anything positive about the suggestion of leaving, at all.


I never said it did, and I'm well aware that it doesn't.

Morning Markos, I'm going to throw a couple things out here and see if anything sticks.... Soolee has some WONDERFUL points on active listening, that's huge. I know it's huge for me. I've found, especially in the midst of conflict, that I often suffer from "FIrst Thought Wrong Syndrome". My wife can say something and it goes into my ears and is processed through my brain into a thought of what would I mean if I said that? And 99.73% of the time, that thought is wrong. But though active listening, repeating what I truly hear, getting clarification, validation of the point, I've found that we truly think a lot different. It's time consuming and requires one to not react out of emotion but so worth it. You know how they say men won't stop and ask for directions when their lost, it's because of pride. Well, pride has no place in a marriage in that sense. You have to ask. And a Love Buster, will shut that communication down.

And real quick here..... Abandonment is my wife's #1 fear. I think it's absolutely SILLY, I don't understand it, and I've vowed to never leave her..... But still with all that and I can be a great husband, it's still her fear. I do and must respect that. As I've said, I have strict and healthy boundaries in place but because of her fear none of them can be such that they'll trigger that fear.....

But, thank you, dkd, for pointing out how my message looked. Bubbles, I'm sorry; I did not mean to sound like I was jumping on you.

"Seriously, I think you should consider how sensitive you are to what your W is telling you. Reactions to her like this are going to make her feel unsafe, and not want to talk about things for her own protection.

Also, I agree with you that your commitment should be solid, the foundation of your marriage, but it does not make a good marriage in and of itself. People don't feel loved just because of the commitment, if they get the sense that they feel trapped by the promise, it's not love at all. Staying with someone just because it's the right thing to do, does not make one feel loved. I'm not suggesting you're taking your W for granted just because you feel that the commitment locks her in, I'm just saying... "

Can't do quotes

The above are EXCELLENT points. The way you are reacting to us throwing around the "d" word, or just assuming that we are implying it, is very revealing about the state of your character. Not trying to judge you, just trying to point something out that you may not be able to see. I have BEEN in your shoes, and if you spot it you got it

It may very well be that you are taking her "craziness" way too personally, reacting to it, and feeding the problem. Sometimes the solution is to walk away. I don't mean a permanent walking away like divorce, but a willingness to protect yourself, set boundaries, and keep them. I personally feel VERY unsafe around people who do not enforce their own boundaries. I my feel COMFORTABLE around people without boundaries because it's what I'm used to, but I do not feel SAFE. Having respect for yourself is HUGE. We must protect ourselves from our spouses' LB just as much as we need to stop LBing them. When our spouses see us protecting ourselves in ways that honor who I am AND who they are, safety can begin.

I have run into this kind of struggle many times in past relationships as well as marriage, and I've been on both sides of the fence, in both roles. What I have found is that in the short term, the best thing for me to do is practice gut level acceptance of the other person, while taking care of myself emotionally. That's slightly different that withdrawl, in my view. Withdrawl is in many ways a violent, personal reaction based on unmet expectations. Acceptance of my partner and respect for myself are a healthier way.

It might be good for you to read up on what Harley says about unconditional love and marriage.

You're right, LostHusband, I need to really, really work on making myself a better listener. There's an enormous number of obstacles to that, not the least of which is that most of our relationship discussions happen over email (something I can't help, other than to say we're not going to discuss it at all ... tried that once before and it doesn't seem to have been a good idea).

I'm quite willing to ask things; it's just that I'm apparently not very good at it, and it's like tripping over landmines: anything I say could be misinterpreted and cause a shut down.

I work really, REALLY hard to try to make myself a welcoming person to talk to about these things. I know there's a lot more I could and should do. But there's only so much, you know? She expects so much grace for her misunderstandings toward me, but has so little for me.

All this started because I tried to respond in a POSITIVE way when my wife said something I found hurtful. I can see mistakes in my response now. But I started literally from something I read on marriage builders, about responding positively when you feel judged. I just wanted to say "Look, I don't think that helps our conversations, and it hurts me, and I really wish you'd stop it."

Gut level acceptance in this case is recognizing that for whatever reason, your wife is either not capable or not willing to be open and honest with you in a way that is healthy. Nothing you can do can change it. Absolutely nothing. The best thing you can do is drop your expecations.

Remember, expectations are premeditated resentments. Resentment is essentially LBing myself. If I have resentments, that's not the other person's fault. I can choose to have a different attitude, or at least do the best I can to cultivate a different attitude.

FYI, you are very brave to keep posting. Keep an open mind and trust the wisdom of the many men and women who are sharing their thoughts. It's a good healthy place to be, even if it's challenging.

Here's another thing I've found with me..... When in conflict, I'm usually hurt (just like you) and when my wife says something I feel as if it's being said to cause more hurt. My "first thought wrong" assumption is that she is intentionally trying to inflict pain upon me which is rarely the case. I like to think of myself as a descent communicator but I'll tell you it took us a good little while to figure out how we work through conflict. The first thing I tried was to EDUCATE her on how to do it properly, HUGE MISTAKE....LOL... What I had to do was to make a commitment to do it properly everytime, consistantly, with no love busters, and with time and a little more practice than I'd like she began mirroring my communication. Today our conflicts are pretty darn minimal and handled pretty sweetly. HOWEVER, if one of us strays and goes to that hurtful mode, the other has to make the choice to NOT GO THERE....

Another thing to watch out for is to be perceived as "Preachy" and that could be an issue for you, I know it was for me because I read all these books and had been on Marraige Builders for however long and I know how to do it.....lol.... And dude, I would love to be preachy and just tell her how it is but today I can't and typically in those moments where I want to preach the ole "I Feel" statement works:

WHEN YOU DO <X> I FEEL <emotion> BECAUSE <dream, wish for the relationship>. THE RESULT IS <reaction>. WOULDN�T YOU LIKE <request>

BUT you have to be careful with the I feel statement because it's real easy to insert a DJ or a LB in one of the blanks.....

Hi Markos

I pray you find light at the end of this dark tunnel, I am going thru a very similar situation and truly understand what you are going through, I have some few tips

My H shuts down on me just like you explained in your postb and I am the one reading marriage books, materials and going for counseling. Anytime I invite him he tells me. He is not reading any book nor going for counseling. He is sad most of the time and I think he grew up with this attitude of shutting down when he feels hurts(his safety zone)and not talking about stuff.

Though we have great conversations about other issues on tv... but when it comes to talking about our relationship(especially communication and finance) he starts to shut down.

So now I am really working on toning down my expectations and focused on making myself happier. If you expect too much from people like this you will really be hurt most of the time and sad. Before you know it, you will be a slave to their emotions

I also remove myself from him when he is mad and verbally abusive and please dont make a habit of apologizing or running to her each time you have a disagreement(I did that for years and did not work or just temporarily worked). When both of you are in the normal mood, present the facts of the situation, apologize for what you did wrong even if she does not apologize for her wrongdoing.Let her know of your feelings about what she did to hurt you. Do not try to overexplain the issue because if you do that she will find something that you said wrong in the course of your expalination and lastly dont think or assume for her.She is the only one responsible for her thoughts

Focus on things and surround yourself with other people that make you happy in life.Life is too short to waste on trying to figure people out.

When she sees this in you I believe things will start changing.

At least you can drag your spouse to counseling. I cant do that with mine he blantanlty refuses. The only thing he does is to go to the Pastor to vent and complain.Now he hasnt been in church for 3 months, shutting down onthe church he used to go and the church pple keep calling him but he wont pick up their calls but I am not worried about that right now, I am focusing on myself

Good luck!