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Originally Posted By: wonderin3
How bout asking rather than speculating?


Has your wayward husband been clinically diagnosed with a personality disorder?


"Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Freidrich Nietzsche

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Originally Posted By: Skald
Originally Posted By: wonderin3
How bout asking rather than speculating?


Has your wayward husband been clinically diagnosed with a personality disorder?


Good luck getting a dx. Some do, but it seems it is rare. Tough to get most in for the eval/ A catch 22. If you go on the support boards, most never have a dx. So, there is some question as to whether folks have it right, for sure.
To me, it is much like detecting infidelity with a relatively good liar and someone who has covered her/his tracks relatively well.
At some point, you need to trust your gut. Not the best for certainty, but not much choice, most of the time.

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Oh, and I forgot to mention, my H has always known about the forums. He hates them. He will never post, and I have no idea if he reads what I write.


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{{{Wonderin}}}

I truly hope that you will get to where you want to be.

Knowledge is a good thing. I trust that you will use all that you have learned wisely, no matter who gives it.


Husband was unfaithful to me before and after our marriage, at least 7 times. I found out 13 yrs into the marriage. Trickle truth for an entire year. Several different d-days, so it was more like a d-year. Difficult recovery.



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Very well thought out response, Wonderin. I think it is normal to look at whether one wants to continue with someone capable of this betrayal, regardless of whether the cheater is doing the repair work.
Harley, himself, says he would not want to stick around.

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When I read SAA, I didn't read an out for myself, but at that point I already was realizing just how horrible I had become. My A was 100% my responsibility. I did not have an A because I have bipolar, and I do not have bipolar because I had an A. Could one have been related to the other? Yes. But it was still my responsibility.

My life has improved SO MUCH as a result of my lond overdue diagnosis and treatment, I am a big proponent of those who need help for mental illness getting it. However, am also cautious, because with a diagnosis (real or speculative) can come two things: the ill using the illness as an excuse for their behavior, thereby freeing them from all responsibility, OR those around the ill seeing the illness as a mechanism for freeing them because "the person was so damaged/sick/messed up there was no hope anyway."

I do have to say that I am grateful for a H who has chosen to pu up with a mentally ill wife, and I am thankful for the children we brought into this world in spite of it.

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Oh, one more thing Mr. W, that roller coaster that most BSs ride after an affair...I never really got off. Its gotten better, but its not gone. So, I may be more positive or negative depending on what went on that day...how much time I spent in with God, the kids, trigggers/dreams, my H. My hope ebbs and flows along with the ups and downs of the roller coaster.


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I've been thinking about WHY I can't seem to shake the obsessive thinking. Here it is: I think that the wounds from my H's criticisms pre-A are perhaps deeper than the ones of betrayal. And I know that they are less healed. If he cannot make ammends or see how damaging his treatment was during this time...if there is any chance that he has given up the hurtful behaviors but still maintains the same thought patterns, beliefs or attitudes, then I do not want to carry on in this marriage.


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What does he say about having hurt you like that and his attitude about your body etc.?

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Perhaps the husband does not want to do the hard work of repentance, humble reflection of what he has done, and restoration of trust and love.

Before you give up Wonderin, you might try hard, blunt, direct confrontation of him and his attitudes. Be like me, try the machine gun approach to the problem as a last ditch effort before giving up.

I would like to see this man remorseful to the max, his spirit broken, him down on his knees repentant and his attitudes that you are not good enough..... totally eradicated and banished.

To that goal I pray for you and your marriage!!!

Until that happens, the marriage will not flourish.

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I had several discussions about this just after my DDay.

I was 50% responsible for the state of my marriage, however, I EARNED a 'A' on MY 50%! clap

My H had, like Wonderin's, 'lust' issues. puke

I was a good wife. We'd only been married a couple of years before DDay. We had good jobs, no kids, plenty of money, friends, hobbies, health (aka: no outside stressor's).

I was happy, friendly AS. SF was frequent and fun. Lots of RC, DS, 50+ hours of UA a week. No opposite sex friends, etc. Boundaries out the yahoo!

I was here pouring over the EN section, trying to figure out my part in this, how I Plan A this. Fortunately, my H did not try to but blame on me, but I certainly did. If I had been (smarter? more vigilant? kinkier? more attractive? Which EN did I miss?) "I" could have prevented this, and then, fixed it.

I begged him to tell me what I could do/could have done. His answer was always "nothing". He did the LB questionnaire, could only give me (in his words), very minor grievances (and they were). He begged me to STOP as it wasn't about me. I thought that if I just worked harder, I could find 'the answer'.

I believe it was the nekkid Pep who advised me that when a marriage is otherwise sound, a VERY short Plan A can be utilized. Because if the BS was a pretty good spouse (with not a lot of LB's to clean up themselves), then it really IS all about the WS! (paraphrasing...)

I KNOW that I did not contribute to my H's problems.
However, HIS problems affected our marriage.

And after much SA (sexual addiction) counseling for both of us, I had to accept that this wasn't about me.

I was 50% responsible for the state of my marriage, but I did a pretty good job. I think that's where people stop with that line of thinking...

You can ONLY control YOUR 50%.

Wonderin, if your H is still (4 YEARS after DDay) not taking 100% responsibility for his actions, I would be VERY worried. If he's in denial, he could be acting out.
That he could even THINK (much less vocalize) that his new found interest in skanks could have been addressed by you is a HUGE red flag. Does not sound like he's anywhere near recovery.


Is he in a men's group? Counceling? IC or MC? Sounds like it may be the time, if not. You've got two small children now... Please take care!

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I feel the same way as Drucila. I am a person that has a relatively easy time owning mistakes. I have no hesitation in apologizing to someone when I am wrong.
But, I am certain I was a good, caring, kind husband. I was responsible, hardworking and a good father, as well.
I sincerely feel that the cheating had nothing to do with me.

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The thing to remember is that the AFFAIR is not in any way, shape, or form the BS's fault. IF....

the WS was unhappy, not getting EN'S met, or whatever, there were OTHER NON-harmful ways to handle this. They could have seperated, initiated counseling, or just gone ahead and filed for a divorce. There were a BAZILLION other ways to handle marital discord other than to have an affair. The fact that they choose to handle the discord with an affair is THEIRS alone to OWN.

That being said, for MANY WS, when they do speak of their what they need (EN'S), they should not be discounted because they have had an affair. IF....

the BS truly wants to reconcile and save the marriage, they TOO must look deep inside themselves and see what it is they can do to meet the WS EN'S and get rid of LB'S.

While the state of the M pre-A could be either spouse's fault, the affair lies squarely on the shoulders of the WS. And if the WS wants to hide this fact behind the mantra of "my-needs-were-not-getting-met", then they are not a spouse worth keeping....IMO


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Quote:
What does he say about having hurt you like that and his attitude about your body etc.?


Well, this is what bugs me. It was the reason I originally started this post. He will say, I am 100% responsible for the affair. It was not your fault. Then in the next breath, he says: I was vulnerable to it because of unmet needs. I know what that unmet need was - it was that of an attractive spouse. And so to me, it is like saying you didn't cause the affiar, but had you been thinner, I would not have been vulnerable to it.

I realize, as many have posted, that I brought our situation down by responding poorly to his request. We didn't seek mutually enthusiastic solutions. I LBed. But when he talks about what made him vulnerable, it isn't those things...it is my failure to meet the need. Maybe he just doesn't articulate himself well...but it is the possiblity that he does that leaves me leary.

We've talked about it. He says that he wasn't cruel, he was trying to encourage me and give me ideas about how to "achieve the goal (which in actuality was HIS goal)." He says he is sorry that I interpreted it as cruelty, but that wasn't his intent.

I find that insane, because I certainly told him how damaging his comments were. I also find it off, because I can't find one person who thinks saying things like he said is encouraging. In fact I never considered the potential that they were abusive until several people pointed out to me (some on this forum, but I didn't listen until after the A). Because he didn't seem to "get" it, I would often LB with AO. So there was this crazy dance we did that was harmful to both of us.

When we talk about it, he likes to talk about the ways I hurt him in the dance. He blameshifts. I feel like he says one thing, but the rest of his talk doesn't support it.

I don't feel like he recognizes the damage done. And I don't feel like he is sorry.


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Thank you for your insights. I have read a lot on SA, and while I think there are some parallels, I'm not sure that is really what we are dealing with. I do feel like my H made me responsible for solving the lust battle by becomming the fantasy. That part of SA fits. My H says it might be partly true, but to say that it was ONLY lust and an evolving addiction would be too simplistic for him. His unmet needs, he says were a big factor in moving from porn to an A. He claims that most men have some degree of SA...

Like another poster suggested, sometimes I WISH he had full blown SA, because I can feel a lot more compassion and hope for a sick person than a plain selfish one.

Quote:
Wonderin, if your H is still (4 YEARS after DDay) not taking 100% responsibility for his actions, I would be VERY worried. If he's in denial, he could be acting out.
That he could even THINK (much less vocalize) that his new found interest in skanks could have been addressed by you is a HUGE red flag. Does not sound like he's anywhere near recovery.

Is he in a men's group? Counceling? IC or MC? Sounds like it may be the time, if not. You've got two small children now... Please take care!


Thank you for this. I don't see the same signs as during the A, so if he is acting out, it is with porn. Not to say that is OK with me, it isn't. But I am confident that there is no live person involved. I feel no need to check up on him anymore. In part, I think that is because I don't really care if he chooses another A or not. In part, it is because I don't have any red flags. I think he has a lot of personal recovery work ahead of him, but I've let go of trying to control that. It is up to him to get well or not. I don't know if I'll stay married if he doesn't do something soon though.

He has a men's group, but he rarely goes these days. We've been in MC since D Day. We are going to start with a new counselor and rotate, IC for him, IC for me, one session of MC and so on. I'm really looking forward to it, because I think IC was a missing piece to full healing for us. I'm also excited about the fact that my H is so anxious to see this C. He really respects her, so I feel like she may be able to break through where some others were not.


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Hi, i wish I could help figure out your husband and why he does that thing with your weight, It is hurtful to say point blank to the woman you claim to love that SHE IS NOT MEETING YOUR ATTRACTIVE SPOUSE NEED. IN OTHER WORDS, SHE IS NOT ATTRACTIVE. IN FACT SHE IS SO UNNATRACTIVE TO YOU THAT YOU (HE) ARE FORCED TO HAVE AN AFFAIR WITH A MORE ATTRACTIVE PERSON.

YOU ARE CUTE AND NOT OVERWEIGHT!!! AND THE IDIOT DOES NOT LIKE YOUR LOOKS??? THEN WHAT HAPPENED AND WHY DID HE MARRY YOU?? oVER OTHERS?

Maybe i could see it if you were hugely fat, like double your present weight, and wearing sweats all the time and not caring for your body and your hair.......he could carefully help with your looks and weight. Or better yet, he could have refrained from marrying you because he had higher expectations of the woman he married...then there would not be the hurt.

If you were correct weight when marrying him and then became 100 lbs heavier, he could ease into helping you lose it because he loved you enough to want you to live. This is not the same as telling a regular weight, cute mother of his children that you do not and never have met his need for attractive spouse.

NO MAN WHO LOVED YOU WOULD EVER SAY THAT TO YOU, NO MATTER WHAT,

If this were the case, that you blatently and on purpose gained 150 lbs and also had a bad personality or addictions or other unpleasant things about you then it would be STILL HURTFUL TO TELL YOU THAT YOU WERE NOT MEETING HIS NEED FOR AN ATTRACTIVE SPOUSE.

If you were as ugly and hideous, even deformed, as the elephant man was, then, even then, your husband saying you did not quite meet his need for attractive spouse would be extremely hurtful and terrible...your deformity is something you did not cause just as your body type is something you did not cause.

Embrace your self like God made you,. LOVe the way God made your precious body there is nothing wrong with it. But there is a lot wrong with your husband NOT embracing your precious body.

I just got an idea, why not hit it at the source, directly every day.

Tomorrow, tell your husband you want to change something and it will help your marriage., You want him to embrace you, your personality, and your body that God made for you.

He should not insult something God made. Namely YOU.

You want this from him;"

You want compliments about your body every day.
You want NO insults about it
He is not even to THINK of how your body could be better
He is to totally accept your body, hair, looks, and personality.
He is to express every day how much he loves you and loves your body as it is,


I am just brainstorming because i think the man is a jack ass. His heart needs to be completely changed and he does not even see that. YOU would NEVER insult HIM or anyone else the way he insults you thru the entire marriage.

a possible scenereo: Lets say you tell him these things as I thought of them, what if your husband says OK, but then goes underground with his dislike of your body, instead of saying you do not meet his EN, he just shuts up. Then, what would happen?

Would he have other affairs?
Look at other women who he likes thier bodies better?
Not change any of his attitudes?


I do not know what is wrong with this man but it is terribly terribly hurtful what he is saying and doing, I dont see how you could even stand to have sex with such a man. It would make me lose all sexual confidence and love of my own body if I had to be naked in front of a man who I knew hated my body,

I wont bother you any more here, but i feel for you, you have more of an idea what the truth is now, I hope something causes him to see what is important in a marriage and what is not and that he is hurting you terribly which is hurting the whole marriage,

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This is what Dr. Harley says about the need for Physical Attractiveness:

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Physical Attractiveness

For many, physical attractiveness can be one of the greatest sources of love units. If you have this need, an attractive person will not only get your attention, but may distract you from whatever it was you were doing. In fact, that's what may have first drawn you to your spouse -- his or her physical attractiveness.

There are some who consider this need to be temporary and important only in the beginning of a relationship. Some feel that after a couple get to know each other better, physical attractiveness should take a back seat to deeper and more intimate needs. And I've even heard some suggest that those with a need for physical attractiveness are immature or spiritually weak -- even subhuman!

But I don't judge important emotional needs, and I don't think you should either. The question you should ask is, what need when met deposits the most love units? If it's physical attractiveness, it should not be ignored. For many, the need for physical attractiveness not only helps create a relationship, but it continues on throughout marriage, and love units are deposited whenever the spouse is seen -- if he or she is physically attractive.
Learn how to be an attractive spouse

Among the various aspects of physical attractiveness, weight generally gets the most attention. Almost all of the complaints I hear regarding a spouse's loss of physical attractiveness are about being overweight. And when diet and exercise bring the spouse back to a healthy size, physical attractiveness almost always returns. However, choice of clothing, hair style, makeup, and personal hygiene also come together to make a person attractive. Since attractiveness is usually in the eyes of the beholder, you are the ultimate judge of what is attractive to you.

If the attractiveness of your spouse makes you feel great, and loss of that attractiveness would make you feel very frustrated, you should probably include this category on your list of important emotional needs.

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Bubbles -

my H does not do those things today. NONE of them. He is not LBing with SD, IBs, insults, etc. He IS meeting my ENs. I am not dealing with these hurts today, but rather the LINGERING EFFECTS OF THE HURTS FROM THE PAST.

The only hurtful thing I deal with TODAY is the hint that perhaps some of his pre-A behavior was ok...or that I caused it. Like I've said before, this could be my misinterpretation, his poor articulation, or that he really hasn't adopted new attitudes and beliefs. I don't know.
We have had several talks about our "dance" pre-A, and he is well aware of the things that I take grievance with.

Currently, he has done and is doing the work to follow the SAA/HNHN philosopy. I have found it odd that doing those things to restore in love feelings has not worked for me. I came here to find out if anyone else had found this to be true. To find out it anyone else took issue with the "I'm 100% responsible for the A, but my unmet needs left me vulnerable" statement. That's it. Not to bash H. He failed in a lot of ways. So did I.


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DD: 4
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Drgnfly,

I am not here to debate the validity of the need for an AS. It is real, it is valid. I am VERY aware of what that need looks like. And I'm VERY aware of the ways to meet that need for my H.

The only piece that I oppose it his request that I be thinner than I was on my wedding day. To me, that is not a need (or else why would he have picked me as his bride?) but an attempt to meet fantasy so that he doesn't "need" to act out inappropriately.


Me: 32
FWH: 32
DDay & NC: 12/10/07
DD: 4
DS: 1
Rcovering by God's Grace
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