Well, I heard a lot of depressing things yesterday in response to my request that my wife join me with Steve Harley, and things were very cold last night.

But now she's talking like she might be thinking about joining me, just barely. I think there's a chance she feels strongarmed into it, though, which is not good. I don't want this to be a love buster for her. I have not made my request again; she brought it up, practically out of the clear blue.

She asked if she'd have to talk to Steve alone. I know he would want to talk to her alone, but I told her it was okay with me if she refuses to do that. I reiterated that I'm not demanding she see him at all, and said any steps she takes to work on things would please me, including talking to him but not alone, and even just filling out all the questionnaires and sending them in but not attending (which I assume would be very helpful, if still not ideal). She asked me what questionnaires were involved, so I sent her all the links. I haven't heard anything since then. Maybe she's filling them out.

What did you think of my post to you, markos?

Do not apologize for her feelings...apologize only for actions you regret.

"I" statements are not your strength right now...muscle them up.

"I saw my wife as cold last night." "I hear she might be considering talking to Steve. My thought is she might feel strong-armed into it which is not what I want. But I don't really know. I don't want to love bust my wife."

Giving you the power of honest language here...not criticizing your ideas, perspective or style. Clarity as the goal, takes ownership, understanding and no assumptions.

LA

She filled out the ENQ and LBQ!!! They are sitting in my inbox now. Wow!!

Not going to read them; I will be just forwarding them on to Steve. Will read them if he tells me to, of course.

Okay, I'm understanding that principle, but isn't it a little excessive to have to say "she might feel strong-armed into it which is not what I want" over "she might feel strong-armed into it which is not good"? I mean, given that everybody concerned would feel bad about her feeling strongarmed, whose perspective am I protecting with that particular rewording? Or am I missing the boat?

Stopped saying I was sorry, for the time being.


Well, that's a principle I tried to live by when we first got married, but like much of my thinking, it went by the wayside, because it didn't seem to work for me.

If I love bust my wife, I think I should regret that. But reading your post, I don't think you would disagree with that.

Let me go read again. I may not reply, but I will be thinking.

If you choose your actions (because it didn't seem to work for me) based on other people's responses, then you live a life of pain and betrayal. They run your life, your world, leaving you choiceless...

and ironically, you have to make that choice in the first place.

You seem to fear her anger. Would you say you truly fear what she does and says when she's angry? Not really her anger...her actions when angry?

My weakness is extremes...so yes, you may see my revised statement as excessive...I see it as more honest. You do not set what is good and bad...especially when you are talking about someone else's "stuff"...not their actions. Her perception she's being strong-armed is hers...not fact. I'm asking you to precisely separate "stuff" from "fact"...and you may want her to talk to Steve and see that as good for you and your marriage...

and she may not...

and both are valid, just not fact.

She may feel a lot of pressure and stress from your desire to improve the marriage...does not make her choices taken over...she makes her choices. They are hers. Please respect that they are...whether she AO's, discounts, delivers what you want most...all her choices, all the time. Her power is equal to yours, and so are her limits. You are all of your half of the marriage...just as she is her half...neither can be more or less than that. Total equals.

Super kudos to your wife for doing the questionnaires...did you feel a big love deposit from her choice to do them?

You don't protect your perspective by your wording...though you may experience defending your opinions, your feelings, your stuff, a lot...trying desperately to find protection for it...

not real...not really possible. Your perspective is a choice you make...and it's yours.

If you love bust (Lie, AO, DJ, IB), then that violates YOUR code for yourself. That's about you, not her...and she is affected by your LBs. You do your amends not because of her feelings...because you violated your own code.

And the result will be a feeling of remorse (I separated remorse for what I did, and regret for what I didn't do...whatever works for you...some say regret is the feeling you have, and remorse is for the actions you take to amend).

Taking back your power, your responsibility, not basing your actions on HER possible response (stuff)...rather on YOUR OWN CODE will break your unhealthy enmeshment and be the frame work for your very healthy interdependence.

Language is power in your thoughts, beliefs, perceptions, perspective and your words...sure helps take back your focus from her feelings, her thoughts, her stuff, if you choose today to be precise in your language, centered in your power.

Live by the principle, anyway. Whether it gets you the responses from others you want or not...you live by it for you, around yourself...and it follows the Policy of Radical Honesty.

Did you already do your ENQ and LBQ and send them on?

LA

Wife asks "So, can I get $800 to spend on whatever I want to make me feel better?" I think she is upset that I appear to have spent this much money so freely, in our somewhat limited financial situation. {Wow, LovingAnyway, when I put "I think" first and try to write these sentences, it makes them sound like major understatements. I know what she's upset about, not just think it...}

I think I'm finally running into the consequences of the fact that I signed up for Marriage Builders telephone counseling without her complete enthusiastic agreement.

Tell her...

You feel "I think" understates...maybe prevaricates, backs out some of your ownership? Stating opinions as facts SOUNDS stronger isn't. Takes awhile to readjust to speak truthfully.

Did you listen and repeat when she said that? "I hear you asking for an equal amount for yourself that we've spent on MB Counseling, is that correct?"

Go for clarity, Markos. Ask, don't assume.

And you can share your O&H: "I don't feel better by spending this money. I feel invested. The Marriage spent this money...it's for both of us. When we truly work the program, we'll both feel a lot better--we'll be in love with each other again. To me, that's priceless."

POJA doesn't work at the very beginning...Harley asks for each to consider the other in decisions...however, making the decision to spend money on your marriage is essential to having a marriage...because if you don't invest in it, it won't be there to spend on later, will it?

When you have time, could you please answer my questions in my long post on the previous page? They would help me know what you guys already know.

LA

Yes, I certainly did, and in fact I started to include that in my post.

What's a suggested way to react to that, i.e., a positive way of communicating that fact to my wife?


I must be misunderstanding: are you saying her feelings should not be a motivator for me trying to make amends? That seems to run contrary to this article: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8507_fft.html

And the result will be a feeling of remorse (I separated remorse for what I did, and regret for what I didn't do...whatever works for you...some say regret is the feeling you have, and remorse is for the actions you take to amend).


Can you tell me how you have diagnosed me with "enmeshment" and why it is something I don't want? I see this and earlier "you must first break apart your self from her self," and while I think I have an idea what you are talking about, these words are so abstract or metaphysical or something that they really don't have a lot of reality for me. As near as I can tell, my wife and I are still two persons, and I think of us as two persons. We each have our own feelings, desires, goals, opinions. What are you seeing in this regard that is so concerning?

For the record, I think I tend toward Dr. Harley's thinking on codependence:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8110_cod.html


FYI, I am one of the most anally precise people I know. Changing that might make my wife happier, actually...


I've done the ENQ; I want to review it tonight and make any corrections I see necessary, then do the LBQ. Haven't called to schedule the second appointment, yet, but I've paid for five.

No, we sure didn't. We went for several months with the first counselor, and for a couple of months with the second. (There was one in between, but she was so wrong for us I'm not even counting her.)


No, definitely not. We got ourselves back in love during our time with the second counselor, though.


Report? Practically never. I was mystified that the first counselor never did anything to make me accountable for completing assignments I missed.


Probably neither, when you come down to it. I think the second counselor did some teaching. It was through him (and actually through some comments from the counselor I skipped above) that we saw the importance of making requests of each other, not demands.


Well, that's my goal, too. Email for discussing all of this has never been my first choice. I've been told by three counselors, my parents-in-law, and a couple of respected church leaders that doing all this over email is a bad idea. I guess I'm just bumfuzzled how when I tell my story people seem to think I want it this way. I can't change this. I can choose to talk over email, or I can choose to not talk.


The second counselor gave very few exercises. He gave us some assignments, and talking through their results together in counseling sessions helped us to see each other's point of view again and sparked massive amounts of face to face communication (and thus massive love bank deposits).


We've talked about some variants of that.


Yes, and tried to use it to resolve some crises, until now it's associated in my wife's mind with some pretty upsetting memories.


Not much you can do when you ask clarifying questions and the person who wants you to listen to her gets offended that you asked questions.

Not much you can do when, on a rare face-to-face discussion, the speaker talks so quietly that you can't hear her and you say "Can you repeat that?" and it takes her 20 minutes to get up the strength to say it again, just as quietly.


Like I said, the "break myself apart from her self" doesn't make much sense to me. Can you translate that into an actual difference in the wording of my thoughts? Can you give me an example of what you mean?

Are you saying that when she says something, I should reword it as if she said "I think, I feel," etc.? As in, earlier today, when she said I wasn't very understanding, I should try to see the meaning behind that as "I don't feel understood"?


Not news to me, but it's not a process my wife has ever had any enthusiasm for.

I say act, don't react.

Openness and Honesty is stating your stuff as your own. "I felt a massive love deposit when you sent me the questionnaires you completed for me to send them onto Steve. Thank you. I love you very much."


I don't think you're misunderstanding...I think we're communicating and that's back and forth, defining terms of understanding.

If you make your wife's feelings (and her feelings are the result of actions) what drives your marriage, the most important thing, then The Marriage suffers. Because it's putting the result as the cause. However, CONSIDERING your wife's feelings before you take action is loving and respectful.

Would this be something that runs through your head "I don't know how to say I'm happy with her choices today"? Does that sound like you're considering her possible feelings from you saying "Hey, I'm really happy right now!" or choosing your own actions based upon her possible reactions.

It's like struggling between doing the right thing or struggling to look like you're doing the right thing. If you intent is to control her response, her resulting feelings, then you're doing the second one.

And that's where my perception of enmeshment came from...when we are abjectly honest with ourselves and say "I really wish I could make my wife feel happiness all the time" then we are in deep disrespect...because we are rejecting what our spouse feels right now. It's living in lack and rejection.

So, when we don't live to our own code (of honesty, respect, consideration, acceptance), and only live on the reactions of others (most deeply our spouses), that totality erases our own half, ourselves...in a way, we become blameless, don't we?

"If only she'd react with gratitude, then I'd be happy."

"If only she would, then I would feel/think/believe"...that's enmeshment.

Now, you're not as deeply enmeshed as we were, but I sense some of the same thoughts, worries (which is like praying for what you don't want), processes we had.


Good to know.


LOL. So, are you this way because of fear or love? Do you feel great joy in your precision? Your care and consideration with words and communication?

And in your next post, I hear you saying you don't actively listen unless it's a big problem because you fear your wife's reaction...which is that she will take offense?

LA

Okay, my wife just ordered my to do something:

"Just get me one ASAP so I can do my job."

I would like to be able to nicely say this is a demand and a love buster. Unfortunately the response I get is an argument about whether it's a demand or not.

I keep coming back to one of my original questions: how do I tell my wife when she is engaging in love busters?

I practiced what you said about "I statements," LovingAnyway. I said: "I feel really unenthusiastic when you make demands like this."

Critique me!

Remember, this is all via email. When I say "I said" or "she said," what I mean is "I wrote in my email," or "she wrote in her email."

Markos, since this is all through e-mail why don't you post the whole conversation so we can get the whole pic.....

That was pretty much it.

My wife would like to get a new vacuum cleaner. She sent me links to a couple of $400 models.

From there I said:

How about we check with the vacuum cleaner store [down the street] and see if we can get something like that, used, so we don't have to save up too long to get it, but it'll be refurbished and maintained by that store?

She:

:-/
Another used something to limp along on?

Me:

I'd be happy to make a plan with you to fix our financial situation and get to the point where we don't have to buy used any more.

My hope was that in the near future we'd be out of this house and
not have carpets to vacuum and would be able to resell the vacuum
cleaner. It seems like a waste to me to spend a lot of money on
something that I'm hoping we would use less than a year.

She:

We're not going to be out of here in less than a year.

Buy what ever vacuum cleaner you want.

Me:

How come you don't want to follow the rules of negotiation that you keep saying you want to use? {Disrespectful judgment, right? }

She:

I don't know anything about any rules of negotiation.

I told you what I wanted, you vetoed it. So get what you want.

Me:

On February 13, you told me "I don't understand why you need it, nor why you can't just follow the advice on Dr. Harley's website for negotiation." I gave you those rules on February 3 in an email with Subject "Marriage Builders."

The guidelines are:

1) Set ground rules to make negotiation pleasant and safe.
2) Identify the problem from both perspectives.
3) Brainstorm with abandon.
4) Choose the solution that meets the conditions of the Policy of
Joint Agreement -- mutual and enthusiastic agreement.

> I told you what I wanted, you vetoed it. So get what you want.

I thought all I was doing was sharing my perspective with you and
brainstorming. I didn't think we had even gotten to the point of
selecting a solution, yet. I didn't have what you wanted ruled out in my mind, at all.

She:

I don't care what we get

Me:

Here's the link to the negotiation guidelines. I meant to include that:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3350_guide.html

I guess we will follow ground rule #3 and put this discussion off till later. I'd be happy to try again tomorrow if you want, or later today. If you felt like I was disrespectful to you during this discussion, or angry, or demanding, it would be a real love bank deposit for me if you could be open and honest with me about that. {I think it was a mistake to include any more text after "put this discussion off till later, happy to try again tomorrow.}

She:

I just want to be able to vacuum the floor. If I have to put up with the headaches of a used one, then I will. Just get me one ASAP so I can do my job.

Me:

I feel really unenthusiastic when you make demands like this.

She:

It wasn't a demand. If you're okay with all the grunge on the floor, then take however long you want.

She, a couple minutes later:

Nevermind. I'm sorry I brought it up. I'll solve this one on my own.

She, a few minutes after that:

You make me feel awful.

Me:

What do you feel like I did that made you feel this way? I felt like I was just asking to have a back and forth discussion where we would discuss both of our wants and then find something that would please both of us.

Markos, this may be a tad long winded but I�m not familiar with all the new gadgets on the new site. I�m going to mainly focus on your side of the discussion, if she were here I'd focus more on her but since she's not, my focus is going to be on what you control, you.....


���From there I said:

How about we check with the vacuum cleaner store [down the street] and see if we can get something like that, used, so we don't have to save up too long to get it, but it'll be refurbished and maintained by that store?���

OK, we didn�t get to see her first e-mail but that OK�. Do you notice that you did not validate her choices what so ever? You went straight for another choice. Part of active listening is validating what you hear. So she says she wants one of four (or how ever many vacuums she sents) and you say �NO, let�s check here�. Slow down your communication and THINK before speaking/typing.���She:
:-/
Another used something to limp along on?

Me:

I'd be happy to make a plan with you to fix our financial situation and get to the point where we don't have to buy used any more.

My hope was that in the near future we'd be out of this house and
not have carpets to vacuum and would be able to resell the vacuum
cleaner. It seems like a waste to me to spend a lot of money on
something that I'm hoping we would use less than a year.���

Again, she expressed an emotion and while you did good at looking for a solution, as us men folk often do, again you did not validate her point.

���She:

We're not going to be out of here in less than a yea! r.

Buy what ever vacuum cleaner you want.

Me:

How come you don't want to follow the rules of negotiation that you keep saying you want to use? {Disrespectful judgment, right? }���

This conversation is officially over at this point. Validation, Validation, Validation�� Obviously, y�all disagree on how long you�ll be in that house. Is it possible that another house will have carpet and require a vacuum? And then the PREACHING STARTS and dude that was just a bad way of doing it. Her only choice from here on out in the conversation is to be defensive.
���She:

I don't know anything about any rules of negotiation.

I told you what I wanted, you vetoed it. So get what you want.

Me:

On February 13, you told me "I don't understand why you need it, nor why you can't just follow the advice on Dr. Harley's website for negotiation." I gave you those rules on February 3 in an email with Subject "Marriage Builders."���

OUCH�.. Stick a fork in it, y�all are done�.. Dude this isn�t a business deal where you need to quote dates, times, and sources. I would be flipping livid if my wife did this to me.

���She:

I don't care what we get���

She�s looking for an out from the conflict, are you gonna give her one?

����Me:

Here's the link to the negotiation guidelines. I meant to include that:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3350_guide.html

I guess we will follow ground rule #3 and put this discussion off till later. I'd be happy to try again tomorrow if you want, or later today. If you felt like I was disrespectful to you during this discussion, or angry, or demanding, it would be a real love bank deposit for me if you could be open and! honest with me about that. {I think it was a mistake to include any more text after "put this discussion off till later, happy to try again tomorrow.}���

Ummmmm No, more preaching�..

���She:

I just want to be able to vacuum the floor. If I have to put up with the headaches of a used one, then I will. Just get me one ASAP so I can do my job.

Me:

I feel really unenthusiastic when you make demands like this.���

Again, to me, she is still seeking an out and you aren�t giving it, you aren�t validating a single thing, and you�re preaching to educate her. SHE DOESN�T WANT TO BE EDUCATED, SHE WANTS A FREAKING VACUUM CLEANER. She put time and effort into researching vacuum cleaners. She brought it up and got no validation, no thank you for her effort, no nothing and the floors are still dirty. Not only that, she implies she views the housework as HER JOB. Is it her JOB. Sounds like to me there�s an opportunity for you to meet and emotional need of hers.

���She:

It wasn't a demand. If you're okay with all the grunge on the floor, then take however long you want.

She, a couple minutes later:

Nevermind. I'm sorry I brought it up. I'll solve this one on my own.

She, a few minutes after that:

You make me feel awful.���

I�m sorry Markos, I have to agree with her on this one�..

Oh markos.

This sounds like the kind of conversation I would have with my husband. It is exhausting and overwhelming, and you are coming across very differently than perhaps you mean to.

No WONDER she doesn't want to talk to you in person. From my vantage point, you browbeated your poor wife.

Markos, you were telling her what you two could or could not afford [defining your perspective as THE TRUTH] towards the beginning of the conversation. Do you see that's where she shut down? Please read it again, your answers are all in there, you harassing her about not living by rules that she hasn't agreed to live by, when you have agreed and you are not living by them. Do you see the double standard? It makes sense now how she got so depressed she doesn't even make dinner. It makes sense now why you apologize all the time.

Markos, there's a $15 stand up handhelds you can pick up at K-mart on the way home so y'all aren't left without a vacuum in the meantime. POJA starts in the grocery store, not on big-ticket items you both feel strongly about.

You can change your half, markos, today. You're in the right place.

She tells you she wants a new vacuum cleaner, and it's expensive. You aren't sure you want to spend that much money, and you give her a whole litany of comments about a different, better idea, and why your idea makes more sense.

Try this next time:

W: I want to get a new vacuum cleaner, the one I want costs 400.00... (example of what she might have said, what DID she actually say, btw?)

You: Hmnnnn... I know we need a new vacuum cleaner. I don't know how enthusiastic I am about spending 400.00. Help me understand what it is about this vacuum that you really want.

Her: (She tells you why it's important)

You: Okay, so what you like about it is... (repeat in your own words so you AND SHE can confirm you get what she's saying).

Her: Yes.

You: Well, I understand where you're coming from, I just don't really feel great about spending that kind of money right now. For me, I'm hoping we will get out of here in the next year and maybe won't need one at that time. Would you be open to me looking into other options that includes everything you've said is important and maybe we can talk more about it?

Her: I don't want to limp along with another used machine.

Me: Got it. You want to make sure that whatever we get works great and doesn't cause us any problems.

[bold]Markos, [\bold]

Do you see how this kind of conversation is respectful? WHat you did came across as arrogant and disrespectful. Sorry to say, but I would not have wanted to talk to you either. I would find it very unsafe to participate in the kind of conversation you posted, and yet YOU portray yourself as the injured party (she gave you a command).

She simply abdicated because you were not hearing her at all.

Instead of attacking her desire for a $400 vacuum, why not just share your concerns.

OK, you want one of these vacuums. Can we afford it? They look nice, and I'm not against getting one. I just don't know how to pay for it. I'm not willing to buy it on credit, so if we get one, I want to pay cash.

That way, you are not against a vacuum. (It really doesn't pay to be against the thing here.) However, the HOW you get something may matter as much to you as the vacuum does to her.

The art is how do you validate what she wants while respectfully stating your wants as well.

I may be wrong, but it looks like you were attempting that. You didn't just say NO, let's get a cheap one. According to you, you asked. You did say, "How about...?"

Right or wrong, she didn't pick on that as asking if there was something else she could accept, but took it as her being shot down.

I don't think it pays to be against the $400 vacuum. But putting it in the bigger picture of the overall budget and how you buy one is the better place to state your objections.

I don't think you were against the vacuum. You were not in favor of spending $400 this afternoon, right?