Markos...these are great posts to you.

I understand how zooming in on the demand as an LB is...still my weak point, too. Be sure to put it on your LBQ and let it go for now...because you both aren't at a place, yet, to work on that.

And I believe your wife really will work on eliminating SDs. Have faith in her. She loves you.

And when we repeat the LB in our heads, we re-injure ourselves...we grow our frustration, pain and anger. Which is why acknowledging it in proportion is important for now. Don't let it take over your mind and repeat, 'k?

Finding our way when we're off track...means finding the track again first, then making our way again. We don't stop doing it together, though, 'k?

I hope you see more clearly where she can feel something very different than you, and that's okay. It's hers. The more you acknowledge and validate her statements as hers, the more you'll experience being okay with your own. It's another step on the track, not the all, or only. Later, when you both are speaking easily respectful, face to face, comes new levels.

LA

Yes, I see that.


That I don't see, and I need to see. Why did the things I said sound arrogant and disrespectful? Why are people seeing it as an attack?

Please, this is a sincere question. I just don't see it. I'm not saying it's not there; I just don't understand how to recognize it! Other than the parenthetical comments I made on things I thought I could have said better, I don't understand what specifically sounds wrong in what I said.

Haven't read all the responses, yet, so maybe there will be more help in those. More input is still appreciated, particularly for this specific question. Thank you everyone for taking the time to comment.

Have you read Mark's posts on cwmi's thread? The process is to have these conversations themselves in ways that make deposits for you two.

I don't doubt your sincerity, markos. I don't read your posts as defensive, which is awesome.

I would say not an obvious attack...moreso parenting...which is a sneaky attack. Ever watch the old I Love Lucy reruns? You'll see this in the marital conversations.

Partnering is very different. I believe that parenting your spouse can actually make love deposits...initially giving your spouse a sense of deep security...which later turns on you with love withdrawals. So, learning to partner (listen and repeat for yourself, to really hear) and to treat as equals, not assuming they know how to negotiate or not (negotiation is definitely a partnering, NOT a parenting skill).

She says "You make me feel awful"...you answer, "You feel awful right now. I can understand that."

Validate what you hear all the way...big part of POJA is being safe to negotiate with. You both are building credibility to POJA in a healthy way. Beginning.

Read Mark's words from the beginning of your email conversation. He handed you the words, the spirit to negotiate, by first confirming or clarifying what you're hearing your wife say about what she really wants.

And then you keep doing it. Respect is knowing and acting from your belief that your wife is your equal...capable, smart, aware...and your job is to know her desires, thoughts, wants, dislikes, reasons. And she, yours.

You're gonna get there, markos. This is how we all started.

LA

Okay, so to sum up what I'm hearing:

It sounds like I am attacking my wife because I don't give any indication that it is okay with me if she wants a new vacuum ("validation").

Well, it is perfectly okay with me that she wants a new vacuum! I'll make sure to say so up front, next time. That's certainly easy enough.

Yes, I'm trying to do that, and have been for several years. It's just that I keep tripping over things I really had no idea were a problem.

Hopefully more of those things will become evident to me in time. It's like running over landmines all the time. In the middle of a nice park or a miniature golf course.

Hey, great; I appreciate the long-windedness! I was very reluctant to post the actual text of an email exchange, and you guys have made me so glad I did it that I'll probably be willing to do it again.


Well, perfect. That's exactly what I want. I'm here to learn what I can change. So far (and particularly today) you guys are giving me the patient explicit translations and clarifications of my wife's perspective that I haven't been able to get in years.


No matter how much I had slowed down, I don't think I would have ever realized she (or you guys) would've read that sentence as a "no."

"Normal" for me is: someone pitches an idea at me, I pitch an idea back, we keep pitching ideas until something sounds right to everybody. BUT, I'm perfectly content to learn my wife's norms.

So, I'm taking note of the fact that if I don't talk ABOUT my wife's feelings FIRST, before pitching any ideas or discussing my own feelings, she is not going to feel validated.

{Anyone want to sit next to me all day and remind me of that until it's second nature?}


Well, not the house we're going to buy. It's sitting there waiting for us, owned by her parents.

Three weeks ago she was asking how soon we'd be in it.


Okay. So no more pushing marriage builders when things get bad.

At the moment my only other real alternative is to just stop talking, which is also a guaranteed love buster.

Thank you for helping me to see that my attempt to withdraw from the conversation was coming off as preaching. How do you think it would be if next time I said something like "We seem to be making each other mad; can we try this again tomorrow, or this afternoon?" (And suggest responses if I get DJ, AO, or SD in return...)


Now, to be fair, I'm a little bit put out that she conveniently "doesn't know anything" about negotiation, when we've been talking about it off and on for two straight weeks. And again, she agreed to live by these rules. I think she doesn't fully understand what they contain, though. Shoot, I think it's obvious I don't fully understand them, either!


Would my "can we try this tomorrow" sentence from above be a good idea here? Because like I said, the only other thing I know to do here is to just stop talking, and that upsets her and she usually responds with angry outbursts.

Markos, the trick to me is to not let it escalate to the point where it needs to be suspended, I mean seriously, it's A VACUUM we're talking about here, not solving world poverty or taking the Nukes away from Iran. It's about tempering yourself, controling yourself, and not re-acting out of emotion.

Sure it pisses you off that you've sent her stuff and she hasn't read it or doesn't follow it or maybe doesn't understand it. Is there anything positive to gain by rubbing her face in that? NO! Is that relevant to the subject of getting a vacuum? NO!

Here check this out, it gives a different slant to Telly's earlier post on HOW the conversation could have went:

Active listening - One-to-one

Give the speaker time and space for rest after talking

Express appreciation for the sharing to build trust and encourage dialogue

Check if you have understood

Restate key points (Validation) to affirm your understanding & build dialogue

Summarize key points to affirm your understanding & build dialogue

Ask (non-threatening) questions to build understanding

Continue dialogue:

Reflect on your experience to demonstrate your interest (feedback)

Interpret after you feel you have grasped content

Apply what you have learned to a new situation


Tips for a conversation:

Prepare with a positive, engaged attitude

Focus your attention on the subject. Stop all non-relevant activities beforehand to orient yourself to the speaker or the topic. (This is why e-mail conversations are SO hard)

Review mentally what you already know about the subject

Avoid distractions

Avoid distractions (a window, a talkative neighbor, noise, etc.)

Acknowledge any emotional state and suspend emotions until later, or passively participate unless you can control your emotions.

Set aside your prejudices, your opinions. You are present to learn what the speaker has to say, not the other way around

Actively listen:

Be other-directed; focus on the person communicating

Follow and understand the speaker as if you were walking in their shoes

Listen with your ears but also with your eyes and other senses

Be aware: non-verbally acknowledge points in the speech

Don't agree or disagree, but encourage the train of thought

Be involved: Actively respond to questions and directions

One last thing, then I have to pretend to work for a while. Re-read what you just typed to me up there. You show anger towards her for not understanding a "rule to live by" that you yourself admittedly don't understand. You assume malice on her part as if she is purposly and intentionally trying to break said ununderstandable "rule" in order to inflict conflict and damage upon you and the relationship......

Again, slow your roll and think before you react. Does it benifit her to constantly be in a state of conflict? Do you not think this whole situation weighs on her as much as it weighs on you? So now go from the vantage point that she has no malice but rather love and innocence, does that change how you view the beginning of the exchange?

To me it totally does.....

Hey Markos...I just dropped in on this thread. I agree, you are getting GREAT advice. The people on this forum have so much knowledge and experience about how to improve relationships. I think it's great you are willing to soak it up.

LA mentioned validation (I think others did too..didn't mean to leave anyone out.)

Here's something that was a hard lesson for me to learn but when I finally got it, about 100 light bulbs went off in my head.

VALIDATION means just that. You are showing the other person that you hear their point of view and it is worthy.

It doesn't mean you AGREE with it! See, I always thought validation meant I had to cave...give in. It doesn't. It simply means I heard the other person.

I still am terrible at applying it consistently but I'm working on it.

The suggestions you got from everyone here are full of great ideas about validation.

Here's how the conversation proceeded after the point I stopped at before. Please continue critiquing me.

She:

You make me feel awful.

Me (sent before anyone responded here):

What do you feel like I did that made you feel this way? I felt like I was just asking to have a back and forth discussion where we would discuss both of our wants and then find something that would please both of us.

She:

didn't come across

She (a little later):

I am so tired of not having the tools I need to get the job done without headaches. I have had to fight every single vacuum cleaner we have ever owned. For once, I'd like a good one so that I can JUST vacuum.

I don't care if we might someday live in a house without carpet. Who knows if that'll ever happen. Right now, we DO have carpet. We might be here for the rest of our lives, who knows. I don't want to limp along on a hopeful maybe someday ... i just want to take care of what we got, because it may be the only thing we ever have. I see no hope in getting out of here any time soon.

Me (by now I've posted here, got to go mail a package she asked me to mail, and want to take as much time as possible before responding again):

Heading out to try to do the mail and bills; I will try to respond when I get back.

Me (later, got back from lunch, read responses here):

I understand. You hate that every vacuum cleaner we've had is a
piece of junk, and you don't want to think about this any more; you want it to just work. And you don't see any signs of us moving into your parents' house, soon, so you feel like you have to assume you're going to be cleaning and vacuuming this house for the foreseeable future, right?

She:

yes

{Remarkable - it's exactly like the example conversation Telly posted for me.}

Me:

I'm fine with us buying something to take care of that so you don't have to worry about it any more. What do you like about the vacuums you originally sent me?

Like I said, I was hoping to be out of the house soon, but I can see why you would want to plan more long term if you don't think that's going to happen. How would you feel about us saving $50 a week (or maybe even more) towards a vacuum? Would you be interested in getting a brand-new, but cheaper, vacuum at Wal-Mart to tide us over until we can make a decision?

Markos, best thing I think you can do is to tell your wife that you want to learn to negotiate, communicate...

I thought I was a solid communicator...until I learned I really wasn't. Nearly broke my heart (had that "this is my one good thing" belief)...and then made my heart soar.

No kidding. Working WITH my uncommunicative (his words) DH on communication (my own with his help) changed a lot in our marriage, which rippled to all my relationships.

Like OH said...Acceptance is not approval. Validation is not Agreement.

Both you and your wife are deep in assumptions...automatic ones...even assuming you're hearing what she means...even when it's not what she said.

Assuming meaning is what breaks connections and begins conflict. So confirming or clarifying keeps you off the assumption train. You can know you're assuming when you hear HER assuming...it's a signal. Stop and reflect. Know a great way to speak when you want to gather your thoughts? Share what you're doing..."I'm not replying right now because I think I've caught myself assuming and I don't want to do that. I really want us to have a great experience when we talk."

Then you're in it together. And it's honest. It's bonding to share when you discover a weakness in yourself (as you did above, where you used a pattern of behavior from another area of your life in your marriage and assumed it would work) that you previously thought was a strength. Sharing that with your wife is partnering...it's an act of partnering. Self-revelation. It's your job, actually, as a partner.

When you feel afraid you've offended her...ask her for her help right then "I'm afraid I've offended you and I don't know what to say right now. My intention wasn't to do that."

Honesty is intimacy...give yourself permission for higher honesty...phrases would be "This is tough for me."

Your wife can reason out anything you can...and most likely already has...closer to your view point than you think. It's the assumptions in the way...a leftover one from her statement "So, do I get to spend $800, too?" might be within your reaction to the vacuum email. That's yours. Not hers. Don't guess. Treat the conversation as separate. Ask to know and don't assume.

You fear her attacking you for listen and repeat because she believes you're talking down to her (insert what you fear, that was my perception)...then be more honest. "I really don't listen very well, W. I didn't realize this until recently. I want this very much, and I need your help and patience. I'm committed to really hearing what you say and not getting lost in my own mind, with assumptions, guesses, responses."

Helpmates are equals.

You assuming she's mis-stating that she doesn't know anything about negotiating is an assumption you didn't clarify. She may have meant "I don't understand what we're doing" or "If this is negotiating, I don't know anything about it." Yes, you know she knows how to negotiate--we learn as little kids how to barter and trade--not because of the articles you sent prior. Those are different...and you're learning that, too.

Your perception was valid...it was an assumption, though, so it wasn't right. Is that clearer? And you don't know how to negotiate together yet...and you both still are. Kudos...congratulate yourself and her for the way you keep choosing to make different choices.

Read LH's post, OH, heck, all of them, slowly...without assuming you know where they're going, what they're saying...like you did for me when you went back and answered questions...not that you're bad or wrong...think of how much it means to you to understand fast, grasp, demonstrate that you're quick, able, super competent. That actually gets in our way when we're communicating. Because assumptions give us speed...so to finish the imaginary race first is to be the loser when it comes to communication.

Counter-intuitive.

LH's "slow your roll"...I used to do this with my goal being to impress my DH, gain his admiration for my dazzling comprehension...and nearly unlistened him to divorce. Also, I ended up on the treadmill to nowhere by trying to get his admiration (get him to give it to me) which told me he DIDN'T admire me...so I felt unappreciated. So my EN for Admiration was way low...and yes, he admired and appreciated me very much--just not for the speed, because that's when I hurt him most. He admired me more when I slowed my own roll...listened, validated, acknowledged and shared.

LA

Oh, and don't forget Goodwill (instead of Walmart)...and I say this because...

One of the stellar things about my DH is that he's a shopaholic...which, like most characteristics/habits we have, works for good when not in the extreme. He found a canister vacuum worth $400 at Goodwill (or ARC or DAV) for $20. Now, this would be what you were looking for a stop-gap while you guys found a great deal you could both be happy with on a new model (and gives you time to save for it).

And you can also offer to use the vacuum, Markos...because you want to understand your wife's frustrations. And doing so will help you understand what she's really looking for in a new vacuum...don't assume you know what she means. She's had many frustrating experiences with different vacuums. Her wish that new means no frustration is understandable. Don't mix up wishes with wants.

LA

Update:

Me:

I'm fine with us buying something to take care of that so you don't have to worry about it any more. What do you like about the vacuums you originally sent me?

Like I said, I was hoping to be out of the house soon, but I can see why you would want to plan more long term if you don't think that's going to happen. How would you feel about us saving $50 a week (or maybe even more) towards a vacuum? Would you be interested in getting a brand-new, but cheaper, vacuum at Wal-Mart to tide us over until we can make a decision?

She:

Sure

Me:

Are you saying you would be thrilled if I came home with a vacuum cleaner, TONIGHT, and told you I'd set up an automatic deposit in the savings account to get us a better vacuum cleaner in a couple of months, or are you saying that you are resigned to whatever I do because you feel like you don't have a say in it, anyway?

She:

yeah

---------


So..... I get "yeah" to a question that's not "yes/no," but "either/or." I'm sensing that she didn't even read what I said, and I'm feeling a lack of enthusiasm, so I presume it would be a bad idea to go buy that cheaper vacuum. Leaving for home in 5 minutes, so unless someone wants to conk me upside the head with a 2x4 and say "Buy the vacuum, Dummy," and show me that's what she really means, I'm going to go home. This'll probably get left for another day.

When she answers yes or no to an either/or question, be honest. Say "I don't understand." And stop.

Also, offer to speak with her on your cell on the way home, because time does seem a factor to her enthusiasm.

LA

I gambled and bought the vacuum, and offered to put aside twice as much a week to save for a new one as I'd previously offered. Brought flowers, too.

She doesn't seem displeased.

I did send her a message before I left saying I was frustrated because I couldn't understand what she meant (intended to make the same offer of talking to her on the phone, too), and she replied but after I left saying to buy the vacuum. I think it would've been better if I'd just bought it, but I didn't see that until I was more than halfway through my drive. (Like I said, I left with the mindset that it was best to be cautious and not buy it. I think instead anytime my wife might be indicating I should buy something for it, buying it will never not be welcomed.)

Markos,

Don't tell her that you're getting frustrated because you don't understand. It's your JOB to work on the conversation until you understand her, it's no flaw in her.

If you get frustrated during this process, you are ruining the process. And let me tell you a big huge secret:

THE PROCESS IS THE [bold]POINT!!!!! [/bold]

It's all about the process. You understand, or gently, and slowly seek to understand, and you are the hero.

You get frustrated, jump ahead too far, harp on her with questions or advice, and you are a sledgehammer beating on her already weary head.

Here's the thing: Men typically like vigorous engagement and debate about ideas. My husband will have conversations with other men that would just wither me, but they are just talking. They jump ahead, make assumptions, give advice, preach, get frustrated, etc.

I hate those conversations. I feel 1000 x's more soothed and comforted by my husband when he simply tries to understan me.

In fact, if I have a problem with something, just him LISTENING AND UNDERSTANDING me can be enough. It can be just as important (and sometimes MORE important) than whether or not the issue actually gets resolved.

It's counter-intuitive, but essential. You must really learn to listen to her.

I will ask my husband to repeat back to me what he hears me saying (in his own words) and he will say "I don't want to be tested". I say "it's not a test, it helps me feel better. I want to know that we're on the same page. maybe I didn't explain myself right".

Once he decides to do that, and we clarify back and forth until I KNOW he understands me (even if his actual understand hasn't changed--I just hear that he understand me now), I feel great.

I don't know why that's not more rewarding for him, because it is SO soothing for me.

Anyway, you've got a good start.

Oh, btw: DO take a break if you start to get frustrated... No one expects you to be a superhero--you just have to engage the process differently and more deeply.

LA!

You said:
I chuckled out loud at that one.

Thanks for always being honest and transparent.

I thought this was just openness and honesty.

Perhaps if me being frustrated is something I need to not allow in myself, I need to make it clear that I am not blaming her for the frustration, just openly admitting a character weakness so that we can deal with it (by perhaps taking a breather, or some other option).


Yep, yesterday made that pretty evident.