I am new to the forum, although I have been using the site to work on my marriage for years. I, like everyone else, am looking for advice. Here is the cliff notes version of my story:

Married an amazing man when he was 21 and I was 24, after only knowing each other for 3 months. Had 1st child right away. He says that changed me. He felt he needed to seek out companionship elsewhere. I found out and we separated. Got back together, had another child...few years later same thing. I felt more invested at this point and went cut throat with him & her. (Not one of my finer moments) when I found out about this one, it also came out that he was "having conversations" with someone else on her. I fondly call it "having conversations" because I have no proof that it was anything more than emails & phone calls-regardless of how inappropriate the content was. Again separated and got back together. Several years later he was having a tough time with his job, I accused him of straying again. He insisted it was work. I could not believe him again so I left w/ our children. It caused him to be alienated from his own family as they supported me & the kids. A few weeks later I went back we honestly tried to work at it for 2 years. I thought things were good. He has to travel a lot for work. I started noticing patterns in that-places/people etc. Well I think every thing happens for a reason (not that I know what to do with the info you are about to read) strangely 1 of his cc charges came in multiple times. I do the finances so I called the restaurant to correct it. They were aware of the problem and were trying to fix it the problem came from the waitress trying to split the bill. (Funny hubby said he dined alone) wait it gets better, they made such an impression that the waitress even asked me how our 3rd date went? When I informed her that I was the wife she said "oh no" the restaurant has been very helpful...told me the name of the person he was with etc. I confronted my H he said he did not tell me because he new I would freak out. It is a client. I am freaking out now that he was dishonest; I know for a fact that she is a client & that he has dinned with her on several occasions before. I saw his expense reports....why lie this time? He has also spent the night in her town 1 time a week for the last 2 months.... 1 of those times he does not have a hotel bill. He said he worked all night and caught a nap in a clients lobby. (In the middle of the night???) He insists that I am making up my own reality of what happens. But the more I dig into finding the answers the more dots are connecting.
I do not want to give up on my marriage but he seems to need more than what I have to offer. I am not sure I can trust again. I have been in depressed states over the years and have let my self gain weight, and have not felt self worth and KNOW that I did NOT give it my all --ALL OF THE TIME. I had to recover from all the prior situations. What do I do? It is his word against my gut feeling. I have heard all his words before. I truly love this man, although right now I do not know why. I want to go into destruction mode on him & her. It could cause a lot of problems for them both job wise. He is the bread winner in our home, I would also be hurting myself & children. I have not gone there for that reason alone. Any advice

L1C

Just want to say I am sorry you are at this site. It sounds like your MR has had some ups and downs.

Welcome To Marriage Builders.

Could you give us a little more info. How long M?
Childrens ages.
How long between first incedent and now?
Your ages.

It may help some to put better perspective on your situation.

Again WELCOME. The MB's program when followed will help you.

Nesre

We have been married since 1998- we are now 34 & 37
1st child born 1999 -is now 10
2nd 2003- is now 7

Incidents that I KNOW of:
1. 1999 after 1st child was born- he admitted to reaching out but claims not sex when I got to him he had bed head....
2. 2003 after 2nd child was born- forced to admit he reached out still claims no sex. I had emails that were pretty convincing
3. summer of 2007- he claims that it was truly his job and not a person, I have no proof of anything just my gut. Prior behaviors
4. NOW from Jan 2010 through today. He claims that it was nothing more than business. But I am not a believer. I have searched through his phone records in home office. NO access to his email or cell phone. He used to call her at work & on her cell from his home office, but 1/27 was the last call. 1/28 was the day he stayed in her town over night w/ no hotel bill. He has had dinner with her on 3 occasions that were expensed to his job in Feb. The last dinner was 2/25- they split the bill. That is what caused me to find out. Face book is a wonderful thing! I have never used it before but signed up yesterday to find out more about her. Several of her "fav's" are places that he frequented while in that town. I saw them on his expenses ...bars, pool halls etc. He has been listening to different music...luck would have it she listens to that music. I also found info on the internet that she has run some marathons. Oddly enough for the past couple months he has been very motivated to work out & diet.

Last1

From your time line of events it looks like there is smoke. The fire may not be far behind!

You said in your first post you have used this site for years so you have a very good understanding of PL A and PL b? Yes?

I would brush up on that and take an inventory of myself to see where my strengths and weaknesses are.

I also would start to really snoop. DO NOT LET HIM KNOW OR GET CAUGHT.

You said he has a home office right? Would that be where the e-mails come from? A keylogger comes to mind. There are several different ways to check these out. When you find evidence make sure to tuck it away safely for a later date. You may need to use it.

I will bump the SPYING 101 thread and you see if something would work there for you. There are many ways to track a person if you really want to.

Keep posting and keep asking questions.

Weekends are kinda slow here and I definately am not a vet but this should at least help you to get started.

Nesre

L1C

Welcome to MB - sorry you find yourself here.

If you have visited this forum in the past, you know that many of us here are very blunt, believing that oblique talk and tip toeing around doesn't help.

First all, insure you use plenty of paragraphs in your discussion. This helps with readability and saves time in the reading.

Do you work and have an income?

Is your husband generous with his income?

Secondly, my own slant is toward marriage, most of the time. So I will tend to point in that direction with my comments with certain exceptions such as a serial adulterer or any of the Dayton Wheel of Abuse symptoms.

Additionally, it is my slant and that applies to most here, to point out when someone is in a fog and lying to themselves, which includes those who have been betrayed, which has its own fog with a false illusion mind set.

Now with that as a background, here is what I think.

He sounds as if he is a serial adulterer. Sorry, that is my read. Three or four cases says it all. I know that is not what you wanted to hear. Sorry, that is my read.

That doesn't mean he cannot and you cannot recover a state of happy marriage, or I should say a new beginning, but it makes it just that tougher. Certainly without him on board enthusiastically, it is impossible unless you willing to live in a life of humiliation.

At this point, I recommend that you go into discovery mode SECRETLY to find out all you can about what you suspect. After that, you expose. If you are reading from other posts here, you know exactly what I mean.

Then, you move to the next step.

Larry

Nesre & Larry

Thank you both for your post. I have referenced this site, but never posted in the forums. SO thank you for the tips on getting the post out there so others will read and respond.

Thanks for the bump on spying 101. I am torn here. I have done a lot of spying over the years. In fact have been obsessed at times. Even lost a job due to performance because I spent all my time spying. I had been spy free for 2 years....look where it got me...right back where I was before. I have to say I really felt good NOT spying. I also thought things were GREAT! Is this really a way to live in a relationship? What kind of relationship do I really have with him if I can not trust him?

Not to mention, I have done it before & exposed him before, he is very slick these days. I have tried the trick to reset the PW on phone & LinkedIn sight but it sends him an email to an address that I do not even know. He is sure to check things and very secretive. When I come into his office sometimes I notice him close windows, or slide his e mail up so I can not see whets there. But it is his work PC & blackberry I have NO WAY to access it anymore.

LOVE the fact that people on here are blunt. I feel like I can not talk to my friends and family. Some say I am too good for this and others say they just have to look at my husband to know how much he loves me. I have actually been isolated from friends, because they are flat out tired of hearing it. Friends have helped me & supported me through exposure, and have been disappointed that I keep putting myself in the same situation.

Larry, think you hit it dead nuts on. I think he is a serial adulterer. But how do I help someone who can not be honest? WE did MC before. The MC told me I need to give him privacy and room for trust. He left there "KNOWING" he was right. Now he does not think we need to do MC.

I do believe he loves me. But I also believe he is addicted to the hunt and the feeling that you get from a new relationship. I have always found out in the early stages (I think), so I am not really sure how far he would go. (Or has gone)

When we first got together we both had careers and average salaries. I have been very supportive over the years while he has climbed the corporate ladder. I became a stay at home mom in 2005 until 2007 when we had separated. When I returned I found a M-F part time day job, so I could be available for our children after school. I do not make a lot of $. He on the other hand, has a very good income. My children have been accustomed (as well as my self) to a certain level. WE also have a lot of debt. WE live in an upper/middle class n'hood, have a great home, cars, boat etc. With that said, if we were in two different households....that would not be the case. WE would take a bath on our house in this economy. WE would go broke.

He is very good at his job. Part of his job entails manipulation and lying. SO I think...it transfers to home life too. He is a charmer, no doubt. Always knows what to say and when to say it. Can think very fast on his feet. Even when I had "proof" he still had ways of making it all sound like it was me not him.

Interestingly enough, now that I am putting more pieces together, he has had a job change right around the time of the incidents. (Tried to change companies in 1999, changed companies in 2003, relocated with same company in 2004, relocated with the same company in 2006,changed companies in 2007) Even now, he has been talking about wanting to change jobs since last October. It makes me wonder if he has really been honest with me about why the jobs have changed. Same business just different companies or locations.

The current OW is a client. A very successful one that lives 2 hrs from us. They have been negotiating a deal for several months and could be connected in this deal for a long time. For me to ask him to not have contact with her is unrealistic, unless I want him to lose his job. But that also means by not doing so, I am basically allowing him to be a cake eater.


I am thankful for all of your advice. I know eventually I will be able to sort it all out. I guess right now I need to think of ways to discover WITH OUT DETECTION. That is my first obstacle!

It would not surprise me if he had some of these tricks up his sleeve to see if I am spying, again! SO I need to proceed with caution. I know he checks the history on the home PC to see if I am "up to my old habits again". He has been very clear all weekend that I do not dig into the OW's life. Of course I have...carefully not to have crossed any lines. But he may be able to tell when he gets home. He has told me in the past if I return to spying, he would dirvoce me. THat he can not trust me not to spy. Double edged sword....

You cant help him chance his adulterous ways.
You can only set boundaies and conditions under which you are happy to be Married to him. If he does not meet those you have to set consequences and FOLLOW THRU.

This is why most MC's are unsuccessful at saving M after an A infact like is true in your case your MC is sort of enabling your H's Waywardness with this space and privacy cr*p.

If you have the resources to spend on MC then you may want to consider the Harleys cause you know they have dealt with this topic over and over succesfully.



That is just Bu**cr*P.

He hides around his relationships with women and you are the one being punished for your "old habits"
Thats Wayward fog babble if I ever heard any. Any FWS is willing happy and open to being perfectly transparent so as to eliminate any doubt of their Waywardness.
In the case of you H I have no doubt that the fire is following this smoke cloud.

Here is my Q to you
Assuming you get thru this snooping phase undected and CONFIRM that he is continuing his Wayward ways what is your plan ?

Great Q.....

I always have hoped that if I find something it will cause him to stop and it will get better. Honestly, I think I would expose him and try to make it work ...again.

But when do I give up on that hope?

Why bother snooping if I want to make it work and know this is his pattern?

Do I know he will really change?....he has said he would but always falls back into the pattern

I just recently posted this to someone else this is my fogless view:

If your favorite shirt has a stain, what do you do? You try everything to get the stain out. Right? When that doesn�t work you take it out to the professionals. Still the shirt is stained. Now what do you do? Do you hang it in the closet and save it because it is your favorite? Or do you simply give it to goodwill for someone else to have as is?


My favorite shirt is in the closet still. But I do not think there is any shame in offering it to goodwill. I just have not been able to do it.

Here is how I feel. I love that shirt so much; I want to wear it all the time. So I wear it secretively. Because I will be darned if I get caught with a stain on my shirt in public.

Meaning, I am so in love with him it pains me. I think I would even stay if the behavior continued. But to him and the past OW I have hidden that and destroyed everything in my path because I do not want to be humiliated.

Confusing, huh?.

My next comment was going to be that serial adulterers are very good at gaslighting, but you already knew that. Look it up.

What state do you live in?

Larry

One other question. How are you able to get on this forum without him knowing about it. You think he might have a key logger on the computer at home?

Larry

Ok so lets go on with your fav Old Stained shirt theory.

When I think about purging my closet I am not happy about having to give up my my old Fav shirt that I can no longer use.
On the way to the salvation army drop of I am sort of bummed cause I am not completely ready to let go. On the way back I smile the whole way cause I have the tax deductible recipt in my hand and I know I have done good.

I come home I file the receipt in my Tax drawer and I am happy, may be I even eat 2 oreo cookies with milk. I did good My closet is clean and I got a tax benefit. I am happy

Can you visualise you being happy ?

Again good Q's

He is away on business this weekend. I have been to plenty of other sites to check out the OW. So if he does have a key logger...he will be very busy w/ the info!

I am scared stiff that he will find out, but what�s done is done I suppose. My coming to this forum... I do not see as an issue my intentions are to help me figure out how/what to do to save my marriage.

He may not view it that way.. I can hear him now... it is all one sided. No one is hearing how he felt unloved in the relationship etc. However true, I feel it is justification for the behavior.

I may have done more damage by joining the forums since I want and need him to be on board with the program. He will KNOW it is me if he reads any of these posts.

What State do you live in?

Do a web search on key logger detection.

Larry

I am afraid that when I get there and let go of that shirt... I will never be able to find another that I like as much. I am sure I could find a whole other wardrobe and probably eat lots of cookies along the way! I am just stuck in the what if

yes it could get better, but it could also get worse. I am not afraid of being alone. I am afraid of losing something that I want & love so much.

I do not mean to offend, but why do you ask what state I am in?

last1chance, The problem is not spying, it is that you CHOOSE to stay in a marriage with an untrustworthy person who has secrets. If I told my H I was spying, he would be GLAD because he has nothing to hide. People who have nothing to hide, don�t hide.


If a person will only stay married to you if he can hide things from you, then you don't have a marriage anyway. I would take him up on the divorce offer if I were you. You have nothing to lose.

Your husband is a serial cheater who cheats as a way of life. This is WHY he tries to scare you away from snooping on him. He has LOTS to hide!

Different states have different laws when it comes to adultery, divorce, support, and a bunch of other stuff that may be relevant.

It is not common knowledge, but Texas, for example, is both a no fault and a fault State.

One of the angles you need to think about is something called "Scared Straight." But if you don't know what he might fear in terms of his economic interest, you can't move him with that.

Larry

Ok lets make a list
Why do you want and love that old stained shirt so much?
Start with
I want to save my M with my WH beacuse....


Then make another one that says
I will stay in my M with DH if and only if .....

Gas lighting... looked it up... true.

I do choose to stay in the marriage. Because I want it to work. Maybe the truth is that it just won�t work. Maybe I am afraid of the truth.

Ahhhh! Thank you all for the posts. On my way to pick him up.