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It sounds, SC, like you're saying that you have a better plan for building marriages than the MB plan. Is that your point?


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
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No my point is that i think it hurts people when you tell them that you can't sacrifice but you can't do anything that will bring your spouse unhapiness because IMHO you can not do one without the other and i think it confuses people including me........

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If I give up drinking, is it a sacrifice?

What about giving up driving sports cars at 100 MPH on the twisties up in the mountains?

Or would it be sacrifice to stop going golfing one Saturday morning while my wife takes care of three sick kids?

We consider something to be a sacrifice when we feel that we are giving up a thing that has value to us in exchange for something of lesser value. Just like we don't feel swindled by the guy at the car dealer when we sign this 5 or 6 year contract to pay for a brand new car, but if we find that the car isn't what we thought we were getting, then we might feel resentful over it later, usually once that newness wears off and the thing starts to need repairs.

When we give up something that is making us happy in some way we weigh its value against what we are getting in return. In the case of giving up some activity that I love "for the good of the marriage" it really only feels like a sacrifice if I don't get something more valuable in return.

Even Dr Harley talks about short term sacrifice for long term benefit being something that should be considered. But where we have the biggest problem is when we have lost that romantic love and aren't getting much of anything in return no matter what we are investing in the relationship and so anything we give feels like sacrifice since we aren't getting anything of value in return.

This folks is the State of Conflict that Dr Harley explains in his basic concepts. Our Takers are demanding to be fed and cared for and we frankly don't care what it costs our spouse as long as we get what we want.

Even for a renter mindset payment for value is something that can't really be seen as sacrifice at all. It only becomes sacrifice when we aren't getting any return on investment.

If doing what is right and good for the marriage feels like sacrifice then the problem isn't in the doing what is right but in the ROI, or more precisely, the lack of ROI.

The reason people have such a hard time with the concept of POJA is that we don't feel in love, don't want to give because we haven't gotten in return and can't imagine ever wanting to give any more because we have already given all we have for no ROI. The reality is simply that our Taker is in charge at that moment and is telling our Giver that we have already given enough and it is now time for our spouse to give for a change.

If one person can begin to use the process and even better if both begin to agree to using the process of POJA, at first it feels like sacrifice, but very quickly it stops feeling that way because we are getting ROI for anything we give up. The goal of POJA is not to make anything happen or to solve all problems or even to find a way to do anything at all. The GOAL of POJA is to keep us in love with each other. POJA stops us from sacrificing and also stops us from taking from each other by allowing our spouse to sacrifice for our benefit.

The MOST important part of marriage is being in love. If we fall out of love with each other nothing else in the marriage works, matters or has any significance in our lives. It was why we got married and will be why we stay married in the long run. It is the whole point of MB and is the goal of the entire program. When we feel in love and we are in a state of Intimacy, we don't even keep score as to who is giving and who is taking because it stops being about giving and taking and starts to be about giving and getting instead.

Our Taker stops expecting anything, even in return for what we are giving when we are already getting what we want and need. When our Love Banks are full what something costs us has very little meaning. It is only when we constantly withdraw love units that we bring our spouse's Taker out and then everything we do becomes an uphill battle.

Seldom is it a great big gigantic huge one shot love buster that does us in, BTW. What happens instead is that we get lazy and start repeating the same "little" things over and over again. The day to day habits we fall into do the damage and not the one shot argument with each other. It is my drooping socks on the floor every night instead of putting them in the hamper or her setting up something with her sister for my weekend off instead of asking me if I would like to do something. These are the things that make us fall out of love and make everything we do feel like sacrifice unless we can see a clear immediate benefit to our own Taker mentality.

Real sacrifice seldom even feels like sacrifice. It is not getting what we want or expect that feels like we are giving while getting nothing in return. We give up little things in an effort to avoid confrontation or we hide things from our spouse because we want to remain conflict free. Since our troubles and complaints go unanswered, mainly because they have gone unexpressed, we start to resent having to give up all this stuff for nothing coming back to us.

Time for work...

Mark

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It's the mindset, SC. It's the belief that to be compatible means that your spouse likes what you like, instead of believing the real definition of compatibility which is that you like the same things, or at least enough of the same things to have an enjoyable life together.

So long as one (or both) spouse focuses on the things they can't do, there will be incompatibility.


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A Short Inspirational Poem
Watch Your
By Frank Outlaw

Watch your thoughts,
for they become words.
Watch your words,
for they become actions.
Watch your actions,
for they become habits.
Watch your habits,
for they become character.
Watch your character,
for it becomes your destiny.

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Originally Posted By: Still_Crazy




I do not ask my h to go out to "sit down restaurants" with me as i know he does not like them. He will ocassionally say "hey do you want to go out to eat at so and so" and i gladly accept and we have a great time. I am sure that it is a sacrifice to him because i know that he does not like to go to "sit down restaurants'.


Again, this behavior is what leads to incompatibility and unhappiness. Since you know he doesn't like eating out, you should find something you know you BOTH like to do and not accept his offer. Just because he is willing to sacrifice, does not mean it is good for your marriage. In fact, his offer to sacrifice is bad for your marriage because it is a renters mentality. People who sacrifice KEEP SCORE. And when the score is uneven, they tend to punish the other spouse to extract the payment.

IT IS BAD. Even if you both agree to practice WIN-LOSE, your agreement does not compensate for the damage caused by WIN-LOSE. The fact is that you should not engage in practices that make your spouse unhappy IF YOU WANT TO HAVE A HAPPY MARRIAGE.

And yes, the state of your marriage is very relevant to this discussion, SC. Because if you are going to contradict MB concepts, that begs the question: how has that worked for you? The proof is in the pudding, so to speak.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted By: CWMI
It's the mindset, SC. It's the belief that to be compatible means that your spouse likes what you like, instead of believing the real definition of compatibility which is that you like the same things, or at least enough of the same things to have an enjoyable life together.

So long as one (or both) spouse focuses on the things they can't do, there will be incompatibility.



I do not believe me and my h are incompatible. My only issue with my h is that he does not see anything wrong with being friends with members of the opposite sex the same as the majority of posters on this board. That is my only reason for not working on recovering my marriage with my H right now at this time and place.

I do not have a negative mindset about "sacrifice", it is MB that has a negative mindset about sacrifice. I think sacrifice is a GOOD thing.

I just do not understand the concept of "not doing anything that causes my spouse unhappiness" AND "sacrifice is a bad thing", i do not think it is possible to do one without the other. And it really confuses me when it said over and over again. And i am sure it confuses others as well because like i said IMHO it is not possible to one without the other......

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Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: Still_Crazy




I do not ask my h to go out to "sit down restaurants" with me as i know he does not like them. He will ocassionally say "hey do you want to go out to eat at so and so" and i gladly accept and we have a great time. I am sure that it is a sacrifice to him because i know that he does not like to go to "sit down restaurants'.


Again, this behavior is what leads to incompatibility and unhappiness. Since you know he doesn't like eating out, you should find something you know you BOTH like to do and not accept his offer. Just because he is willing to sacrifice, does not mean it is good for your marriage. In fact, his offer to sacrifice is bad for your marriage because it is a renters mentality. People who sacrifice KEEP SCORE. And when the score is uneven, they tend to punish the other spouse to extract the payment.

IT IS BAD. Even if you both agree to practice WIN-LOSE, your agreement does not compensate for the damage caused by WIN-LOSE. The fact is that you should not engage in practices that make your spouse unhappy IF YOU WANT TO HAVE A HAPPY MARRIAGE.

And yes, the state of your marriage is very relevant to this discussion, SC. Because if you are going to contradict MB concepts, that begs the question: how has that worked for you? The proof is in the pudding, so to speak.


I still disagree Mel and i always will no matter what you or any other poster says.

And IMHO i think you "sacrifice" in your marriage on a daily basis as well by your description because i do not think it is possible to do one without the other.

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Originally Posted By: Still_Crazy

And IMHO i think you "sacrifice" in your marriage on a daily basis as well by your description because i do not think it is possible to do one without the other.


This is a "compatible marriage," SC? crazy Here is what you wrote last November before you moved to the Divorce forum, after years of coming here talking about your incompatible, unhappy marriage:

Originally Posted By: StillCrazy
We have decided to quit working on the marriage and go our separate ways. However because of a lot of things it is easier to stay in the same house until we have to move out.

I have moved into our ODD old room and we are living separately under the same roof as of this past weekend.

He refuses to leave and so do i so there is not going to be a change in that regards. What is the best way to handle living under the same roof?
here

It's one thing to disagree with a tried and true concept that really works, but when your own method doesnt even work for you, that should be pointed out. Your method has not worked for you, SC.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted By: Mark1952

When we give up something that is making us happy in some way we weigh its value against what we are getting in return. In the case of giving up some activity that I love "for the good of the marriage" it really only feels like a sacrifice if I don't get something more valuable in return.

Mark


IMHO this is incorrect the value of the return has nothing to do with the fact that it is a sacrifice......

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Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: Still_Crazy

And IMHO i think you "sacrifice" in your marriage on a daily basis as well by your description because i do not think it is possible to do one without the other.


This is a "compatible marriage," SC? crazy Here is what you wrote last November before you moved to the Divorce forum, after years of coming here talking about your incompatible, unhappy marriage:

Originally Posted By: StillCrazy
We have decided to quit working on the marriage and go our separate ways. However because of a lot of things it is easier to stay in the same house until we have to move out.

I have moved into our ODD old room and we are living separately under the same roof as of this past weekend.

He refuses to leave and so do i so there is not going to be a change in that regards. What is the best way to handle living under the same roof?


It's one thing to disagree with a tried and true concept that really works, but when your own method doesnt even work for you, that should be pointed out. Your method has not worked for you, SC.


Read my other post Mel......

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It is possible to not do anything that hurts your spouse without sacrificing what you want, if what you want is a happy, mutually satisfying, compatible marriage. Above anything else: opposite sex friendships, eating out, material possessions, trips, etc.

IF you want those things ABOVE wanting a good marriage, then I can see why someone would think they were sacrificing.


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Originally Posted By: Still_Crazy


IMHO this is incorrect the value of the return has nothing to do with the fact that it is a sacrifice......


SC, if sacrifice is such a good thing, why has that not helped your own marriage?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Still_crazy,

I understand where folks are coming from. They are trying to tell you that if you find things to replace the things you are giving up for your husband... things that truly make you both happy... then you will no longer feel like those other things were sacrifices.

It's like if I give up cheeseburgers, and find that the new brand of veggie burgers tastes just as good--even better. Then you'd hear me saying "I don't even miss it" vs. "I've had to give up burgers!"

Or... let's say I really like going to restaurants, but my husband doesn't. We decide that I'm going to have one night a month with the girls, and will go to my favorite restaurants that night... And then, my husband and I take up ballroom dance or something--and I end up feeling like I don't even miss going to restaurants with him.

If you haven't had the experience of your husband negotiating things with you to the point where you both are genuinely happy, then Of COURSE you are sacrificing. I mean, it sounds like you simply no longer go to sit down restaurants, rather than talk together about what you're going to do instead.

****
Now, having said all that--let me tell you that the very thing you are talking about (the issue of sacrifice being something that can be a good part of marriage) is the very reason my husband does not like MB.

He was at a talk with Dr. Harley (Senior) and followed up with him after the talk to discuss the issue of sacrifice. He was not happy with the conversation, because he feels much like you.

I think the most important way to overcome this discrepancy is to really understand the policy of joint agreement.

You are not to do anything without the enthusiastic agreement of your spouse... So if your husband isn't enthusiastic about not going to sit-down restaurants, and if you are not enthusiastic about NOT going to sit down restaurants, then you need to come up with something that you can both feel good about.

Right now, you feel good about sacrificing--but ultimately, it's better if EVERYTHING is subject to the POJA. That way, you are of the habit of coming to arrangements that you both feel good about, rather than being in the habit of sacrificing.

The Policy of Joint Agreement is still new to my husband. We talk about it all the time, because one of the other of us is used to sacrificing.

Having done it both ways, I am now seeing that wanting "both of us to be enthusiastic" is the best way to go.

And even though you may be willing to sacrifice for your husband, and even feel fine about it... don't you think it would be better if you could find arrangement you could BOTH feel enthusiastic about? Something that woudl completely remove the feeling of sacrifice from your relationship?

I mean, I don't feel like I'm sacrificing great sex outside of marriage (even if I am) as long as I'm having great sex with my husband, right? I don't feel like I'm sacrificing great conversations and flirtation with men outside of marriage (even though I am) as long as I'm having those things with my husband, right?

The idea is to POJA EVERYTHING. Not because sacrifice is BAD, but because both couples being enthusiastic with all arrangements is BETTER in terms of feeling love for one another.

Does this make any sense?


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It's the same as changing the mindset about saving money rather than spending money. As long as you want to spend money, you will see saving and investment as a sacrifice which interferes with your immediate pleasure. But when you learn to enjoy having money work for you instead of your working for money, you will look forward to saving and investing, and see spending as a sacrifice that you must sometimes make.

As CWMI said, when you see that doing things together is to your benefit, and your happiness in the long run, rather than just your spouse's immediate happiness, you will look forward to the opportunities to do things with them.

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PS. I'm not sure that the quote "Never do anything that makes your spouse unhappy" is as clear as the one that says:

"Never do anything without the enthusiastic agreement of your spouse."


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Originally Posted By: Still_Crazy
[

I do not ask my h to go out to "sit down restaurants" with me as i know he does not like them. He will ocassionally say "hey do you want to go out to eat at so and so" and i gladly accept and we have a great time. I am sure that it is a sacrifice to him because i know that he does not like to go to "sit down restaurants'.


Another solution would be to find something that makes you BOTH happy. Rather than doing something that makes you happy at his expense, a better solution would be to find something that makes you BOTH happy by brainstorming solutions. If he doesn't like to eat out, then you should NEVER eat out together. A better solution might be to make a nice dinner at home together and play some board game you both like.

But using this strategy of WIN-LOSE is what leads to an unhappy marriage and before long, your H will be looking for reasons NOT to do anything with you because that time together is spent doing things that makes him unhappy.

That is sort of a moot point if you are still splitting up, but if you were to try and recover the marriage, that would be the approach I would take.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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"Never do anything without the enthusiastic agreement of your spouse."
and
"Never do anything that makes your spouse unhappy"

... DO NOT mean:

"Never do anything without YOUR enthusiastic agreement."


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They do mean that, Retread. Typo! smile


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No, I disagree about everything having to be without reservation. The goal is for both of you to enthusiastically agree to everything each of you do, especially together. But to get there, each of you is going to have to do things you may not really want to do, in order to serve the happiness of the other. It may have to began as very unilateral. Then it may progress to trading, but if your hearts and minds are on the bigger goal, it will eventually become a habit. You will learn to enjoy things you did not enjoy before, and the two of you will find more things to do which you both enjoy.

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